Alternate theory re Bobby's return and Knots Landing

[Seaviewer]

With all due regard to @Mustard 's well-argued defence of the dual universe theory, I frankly just don't like the idea of two sets of Ewings running around living two sets of lives.

If we're going to borrow from science fiction concepts I'd rather say that time was reset when Pam woke up, meaning that everything we saw really happened when we saw it but that history was then written over after the fact (retconned, you might say).

This would have the added advantage of eliminating such niggling discrepancies as the activities of the blonde woman in the car. We could simply say that in the new timeline they didn't happen.

Initially only Pam retains any memory of the original events - possibly because she was the most traumatised by actually being there when it happened - dismissing it as a dream, but eventually even she forgets. This would explain other questions like why she doesn't recognise Wes Parmalee as Ben Stivers.

Meanwhile on Knots Landing, the same would apply.

It's often said that Bobby "stayed dead" on Knots Landing. That's a cute turn of phrase but it isn't really borne out by anything that's said or happens onscreen. There's never a line of dialogue that reaffirms it. They simply don't address the issue.

It's just as easy to say that, again, everything we saw in season 6 really happened but as of season 7 Bobby is alive and no one has any memory of it having been otherwise and therefore no reason to remark on the fact.

 

[Mustard]

With all due regard to @Mustard 's well-argued defence of the dual universe theory, I frankly just don't like the idea of two sets of Ewings running around living two sets of lives.

If we're going to borrow from science fiction concepts I'd rather say that time was reset when Pam woke up, meaning that everything we saw really happened when we saw it but that history was then written over after the fact (retconned, you might say).

This would have the added advantage of eliminating such niggling discrepancies as the activities of the blonde woman in the car. We could simply say that in the new timeline they didn't happen.

The two universes theory works very well for me. We can easily say that the frustrated/sad woman went home and stayed on the run in the universe where Bobby lived on. Later on, Katherine was back when Pam was burned, making a last desperate attempt at winning over Bobby at the hospital. In the universe where Bobby died, Katherine was too far gone mentally, to the extent of trying to run down Pam, mortally running down Bobby instead, and killing herself in the process.

Initially only Pam retains any memory of the original events - possibly because she was the most traumatised by actually being there when it happened - dismissing it as a dream, but eventually even she forgets. This would explain other questions like why she doesn't recognise Wes Parmalee as Ben Stivers.

Meanwhile on Knots Landing, the same would apply.

I myself have dreamed about something in the past, and something similar happens that very day afterwards. Experts still don't fully know what dreams are. Something like that can explain Wes Parmalee being like Ben Stivers.

It's often said that Bobby "stayed dead" on Knots Landing. That's a cute turn of phrase but it isn't really borne out by anything that's said or happens onscreen. There's never a line of dialogue that reaffirms it. They simply don't address the issue.

Bobby was dead on Season 7 of Knots Landing, which had a certain impact on some events on Knots that season, and they never mentioned Bobby on Knots again after that season. In the universe where Bobby doesn't die, events on Season 7 of Knots are not going to be exactly the same as what we saw on screen. To a greater or lesser extent, they will be different.

It's just as easy to say that, again, everything we saw in season 6 really happened but as of season 7 Bobby is alive and no one has any memory of it having been otherwise and therefore no reason to remark on the fact.

Then how can you explain Gary's tears and Abby comforting him, with her having tragically lost a brother herself a few years before? How do you explain Gary's journey to Dallas for the funeral, and the subsequent events at Empire Valley in Gary's absence? How about Val naming her son Bobby after the late Bobby? If Bobby is still alive, things are going to be a bit different in this regard.

I'm on a Dallas marathon at the moment, currently on Season 13 DVD, and even the Dusty Farlow situation wasn't a mistake in regards to the dream. I thought there were a few errors post-dream, but they can be explained. The bit in Swansong when Dusty met Sue Ellen at the restaurant was in the early part of the dream, after Bobby was run over, so didn't happen in the universe where Bobby lived on. Pre-dream, Dusty's last appearance was talking to Clayton, and the last mention of Dusty pre-dream was Clayton talking to Sue Ellen about not complicating things. Katherine, or the mysterious figure, going away can be explained as her going home, staying on the run in the process. Ray and Donna's house is another one. We never see the house again that was flooded during the dream season, but we do see Ray showing Donna a new house and asking his wife to move in, to which Donna refused. If there is an error, I think it's all the sudden talk about oil prices being so low and the talk of blowing up Saudi oil fields.

 

[Seaviewer]

I'm not saying that two universes doesn't make sense. I'm just offering another possibility.

Then how can you explain Gary's tears and Abby comforting him, with her having tragically lost a brother herself a few years before? How do you explain Gary's journey to Dallas for the funeral, and the subsequent events at Empire Valley in Gary's absence? How about Val naming her son Bobby after the late Bobby? If Bobby is still alive, things are going to be a bit different in this regard.

As I said, in my theory everything in season 6 really happened but, as of season 7, history has been overwritten. It's just a way of allowing events on the two shows to be reconciled. This is borne out to some extent with Lucy being in Europe which is consistent with what we saw in Dallas.

It doesn't strike me as strange that Val would still name her son Bobby after the only Ewing that had supported her.

 

[J. R.'s Piece]

I do remember years ago when I had to do MBTI stuff reading, coming across an item online that an INTJ, when discussing how Bobby Ewing’s death affected both shows, had decided that Bobby had died and been buried in a parallel timeline. Although Pam recalled the alternate life as a dream, none of the other characters need be aware of it at all. That was it’s theory.

 

[Michael Torrance]

For Knots Landing, the botched return of Bobby/Duffy was a blessing in disguise. The show had not needed any Ewing connection for some time, having gone from strength to strength both in ratings and storytelling, and the implications on the show (Gary's grief, one of the twins named Bobby) were more an obligation for what fans would have expected after the death--the show was way past needing any viewer infusion from the parent show. After DALLAS said s**ew you to all plot logic with the dream, it severed ties for ever with Knots, and while Knots probably never would have done that on its own, it actually liberated them from ever having to take into account what was happening Fridays. So for me, the two universes are one where KNOTS is a spin-0ff, and one where it no longer has any relation to DALLAS.

 

[Daniel Avery]

As a viewer of Knots Landing who never watched Dallas (other than bits and pieces), I ask: Did Dallas continue to acknowledge/reference events happening in Knots Landing after the Dream season? Actually, did they ever do it very much prior to that?

 

[Richard Channing]

As a viewer of Knots Landing who never watched Dallas (other than bits and pieces)

How come? Considering you do seem to love the soap genre, and I think you've watched Dynasty and Falcon Crest, right? Explain yourself!!

 

[Daniel Avery]

I gravitated to Knots Landing because of the "forbidden fruit" factor: it was past my bedtime on a school night (Thursday). I'd scheme to stay up to watch it. Dallas, on Friday nights, was free and clear to see, but I just didn't take to it. Looking back, I think it was bit too "adult" and my mom might have steered me away from it. In the mid-1980s our local PBS station turned the Friday 8-10pm timeslot into the Britcom Block, where I discovered such gems as Monty Python, Good Neighbors, To the Manor Born, etc. I did enjoy Falcon Crest at 10pm; I had a friend in school who preferred FC to just about everything else on the air, so we'd talk about it every Monday at school. When I got old enough to stay up to watch original episodes of KL, the reruns of the first six seasons of Knots were sold into syndication, so there was a (joyous) period when I could catch up every weekday on the stuff I vaguely remembered, and see something new every Thursday night (six episodes per week!).

I also didn't get into Dallas as much because I have a tendency not to "jump on the bandwagon" and watch shows just because they're #1 rated. Dallas was a phenomenon back then, for sure, but I liked being loyal to the also-rans, like KL and FC. I guess I've always been rooting for the second banana. I wouldn't have even seen Dynasty if they had not syndicated the reruns of the show several years after it got cancelled, but there are several large gaps in my viewing so I'm no expert on Dynasty by any stretch.

I tried to get into TNT Dallas, and watched it nearly to the end, though it became a chore more than anything else. Whether it was because I didn't have much of the original background (everything I knew, I knew because of this site!) or because it just wasn't very good, I guess I will never know.

In an effort to steer things back to the topic....
Perhaps I've seen too much ret-con of plots on daytime soaps, but I'm simply not bothered by this whole "Bobby isn't really dead" issue on Knots. Most shows that run a long time like this have to make certain tough decisions in plotting that simply do not jive with what was written before. It's an error, but a "forced error" forced on KL by Dallas. Rather than spending a lot of time trying to reconcile the two plot points and attempt to sew them back together, I'd rather just shrug and move on, knowing that the KL producers were basically given the shaft by the Dallas producers and they (KL's producers) had no choice but to ignore the inconsistency.

 

[J. R.'s Piece]

As a viewer of Knots Landing who never watched Dallas (other than bits and pieces), I ask: Did Dallas continue to acknowledge/reference events happening in Knots Landing after the Dream season? Actually, did they ever do it very much prior to that?

No More Mister Nice Guy part 2: Gary references being drunk (from season 1 Knots Landing) to Valene, when discussing JR's shooting in a Dallas scene set in their home). In the same episode, he mentions it to Sue Ellen in the nursery at Southfork when he meets his nephew, John Ross Ewing, for the first time. Gary mentions being drunk to Miss Ellie and says that Sid and Karen Fairgate helped but Valene was strong, strong enough to cut him loose if she had to. When Gary mentions going back, JR says that he too would hurry back if he lived next door to a pretty little bundle like Karen Fairgate.

The Split: Val and Gary are in their home in California. Gary finishes talking to his mother on the phone and then Val and Gary discuss Jock Ewing's distribution of voting shares. They mention going back to Dallas for Lucy's wedding the previous season.

Five Dollars A Barrel: JR asks Gary if he is still working at that used car lot and offers to set Gary up in his own business in California, in return for his voting shares.

The Family Ewing: After Bobby's death, Miss Ellie tells Gary that he now has a strength in him that he hadn't had before.

Conundrum: JR asks if Gary and Valene are going to get married again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lucy also confirmed that her parents had split up again to Don Lockwood

 

[stevew]

It bothers. me too. Wish Dallas had been more considerate. Bobby should have worken up after a year long coma or some such, or never been killed off like that. Should have, could have.

 

[Toni]

The two universes theory works very well for me. We can easily say that the frustrated/sad woman went home and stayed on the run in the universe where Bobby lived on. Later on, Katherine was back when Pam was burned, making a last desperate attempt at winning over Bobby at the hospital. In the universe where Bobby died, Katherine was too far gone mentally, to the extent of trying to run down Pam, mortally running down Bobby instead, and killing herself in the process.



I myself have dreamed about something in the past, and something similar happens that very day afterwards. Experts still don't fully know what dreams are. Something like that can explain Wes Parmalee being like Ben Stivers.



Bobby was dead on Season 7 of Knots Landing, which had a certain impact on some events on Knots that season, and they never mentioned Bobby on Knots again after that season. In the universe where Bobby doesn't die, events on Season 7 of Knots are not going to be exactly the same as what we saw on screen. To a greater or lesser extent, they will be different.



Then how can you explain Gary's tears and Abby comforting him, with her having tragically lost a brother herself a few years before? How do you explain Gary's journey to Dallas for the funeral, and the subsequent events at Empire Valley in Gary's absence? How about Val naming her son Bobby after the late Bobby? If Bobby is still alive, things are going to be a bit different in this regard.

I don´t see Val naming her baby Bobby as a problem, because he had helped her to reunite with Lucy on "Dallas", and, after all, who else could she have named him after, her psycho half-brother Joshua...?

 

[Mustard]

As a viewer of Knots Landing who never watched Dallas (other than bits and pieces), I ask: Did Dallas continue to acknowledge/reference events happening in Knots Landing after the Dream season? Actually, did they ever do it very much prior to that?

Nothing was mentioned on Dallas after the dream regarding plots, no. That was stopped after Bobby was brought back from the dead. What was mentioned on Dallas post-dream regarding Gary was mostly J.R. winding up Lucy about her father, or reminiscing about Gary's pain and extreme reluctance to kill a steer when out hunting, with J.R. telling his son John Ross not to be like his Uncle Gary when he had a steer lined up for the kill.

 

[James from London]

I think when the rest of the family were planning to sell their shares of Ewing Oil to JR, before the Justice Department took it away from them, Bobby said he’d spoken to Gary in California and he was in agreement. And that's about a year after Bobby came back from the dead.

 

[Willie Oleson]

Bobby said he’d spoken to Gary in California and he was in agreement. And that's about a year after Bobby came back from the dead.

So...this happened in Dallas' imaginary version of the spin-off, rather than the actual spin-off.
Of course Knots could have done exactly the same. Instead of no longer mentioning Bobby's name (or any Texan Ewing?) they could have turned their parent show into an imaginary parent show.

One could even argue that TNT Dallas was a combination of these two imaginary Dallas/Knots universes, which perfectly explains the TNT stuff that never happened on the original show.
Plus it would have allowed them to introduce Angelica Nero as Nicolas biological mother.

 

[Karin Schill]

Gary & Val's twins were mentioned on Dallas when Joan and Ted guest starred for the final episode of the show.

I also didn't get into Dallas as much because I have a tendency not to "jump on the bandwagon" and watch shows just because they're #1 rated. Dallas was a phenomenon back then, for sure, but I liked being loyal to the also-rans, like KL and FC. I guess I've always been rooting for the second banana. I wouldn't have even seen Dynasty if they had not syndicated the reruns of the show several years after it got cancelled, but there are several large gaps in my viewing so I'm no expert on Dynasty by any stretch.

Wow! You know that you are in for a treat right?
I can strongly recommend you to watch the original Dallas. I think it's probably available at your local library on DVD so you can borrow it from there and watch the first two seasons. The show has a lot of self-contained episodes in the beginning so it will take a while before you get really hooked on the show. But my guess is that you will since there are some similarities between Dallas and Knots Landing. After all both shows were created by the same man and you can consider Dallas what I considered Knots Landing when I first began watching it 20 years ago, "as the closest thing I could get to Dallas without it being Dallas." You will enjoy getting to know Gary and Val's extended family. Their daughter Lucy, his mother Miss Ellie and father Jock and brothers JR and Bobby. Watching Dallas will help you understand Gary's background a lot better and how he fit into the family.

I tried to get into TNT Dallas, and watched it nearly to the end, though it became a chore more than anything else. Whether it was because I didn't have much of the original background (everything I knew, I knew because of this site!) or because it just wasn't very good, I guess I will never know.

Well let's put it like this a lot of original Dallas fans tuned out from the reboot since they felt it wasn't their show anymore. Dallas TNT and the original Dallas are completely different. I love the original Dallas and I like Dallas TNT. But I also feel like Dallas TNT could have been so much better if it had been slower paced, had more character depth and less plot twists. The original Dallas had that marvellous fly on the wall feel to it. It makes you care about the characters. When I watched Dallas TNT I stopped caring about the characters and started to think of it as "an alternative universe" from the original show. That's how different it is from the original Dallas.

Anyway if you do decide to give original Dallas an other try, please post about it on the board and let us follow your journey as you discover the show. I would love to find out what you think of it and I am sure others would too.

 

[Mustard]

The first 2 seasons DVD of Original Dallas are largely self-contained episodes that are necessary to get the viewer to understand the Ewings and their world. Season 1 of Knots Landing is similar in establishing the feel of the Cul-de-sac, Knots Landing Motors and the 4 couples (Ewings, Fairgates, Averys and Wards), and was actually much slower to get going compared to early Dallas.

I'm certainly of the opinion that you need to watch Dallas (at least the first 9-10 seasons DVD) and Knots Landing to get the full story of the Ewings.

 

[J. R.'s Piece]

As a viewer of Knots Landing who never watched Dallas (other than bits and pieces), I ask: Did Dallas continue to acknowledge/reference events happening in Knots Landing after the Dream season? Actually, did they ever do it very much prior to that?

Oh, in the early 1980 Dallas episode, Second Thoughts, Lucy also mentions to Alan Beam that she has to make up for the school time she lost visiting her parents. In that Dallas episode, there is a storyline where JR wants Lucy married and her moving to Chicago, so that Gary and Valene (Lucy’s “scheming parents”/“my brother Gary and his greedy wife”) have less reason to come to Southfork and are out of his hair.

 

[micmic]

As a viewer of Knots Landing who never watched Dallas (other than bits and pieces), I ask: Did Dallas continue to acknowledge/reference events happening in Knots Landing after the Dream season? Actually, did they ever do it very much prior to that?

When JR wakes up after being shot he tells Gary "i would rush home too if I were living near a pretty little bundle like Karen fairgate"

 

[Mustard]

When JR wakes up after being shot he tells Gary "i would rush home too if I were living near a pretty little bundle like Karen fairgate"

And before Gary left Knots Landing to go back to Dallas after J.R. was shot, he mentions to Valene that it's his first crisis since "my big drunk", referring to the Bottom of the Bottle 2-part finale to Season 1 of Knots Landing.

 

[stevew]

Gary & Val's twins were mentioned on Dallas when Joan and Ted guest starred for the final episode of the show.



Wow! You know that you are in for a treat right?
I can strongly recommend you to watch the original Dallas. I think it's probably available at your local library on DVD so you can borrow it from there and watch the first two seasons. The show has a lot of self-contained episodes in the beginning so it will take a while before you get really hooked on the show. But my guess is that you will since there are some similarities between Dallas and Knots Landing. After all both shows were created by the same man and you can consider Dallas what I considered Knots Landing when I first began watching it 20 years ago, "as the closest thing I could get to Dallas without it being Dallas." You will enjoy getting to know Gary and Val's extended family. Their daughter Lucy, his mother Miss Ellie and father Jock and brothers JR and Bobby. Watching Dallas will help you understand Gary's background a lot better and how he fit into the family.



Well let's put it like this a lot of original Dallas fans tuned out from the reboot since they felt it wasn't their show anymore. Dallas TNT and the original Dallas are completely different. I love the original Dallas and I like Dallas TNT. But I also feel like Dallas TNT could have been so much better if it had been slower paced, had more character depth and less plot twists. The original Dallas had that marvellous fly on the wall feel to it. It makes you care about the characters. When I watched Dallas TNT I stopped caring about the characters and started to think of it as "an alternative universe" from the original show. That's how different it is from the original Dallas.

Anyway if you do decide to give original Dallas an other try, please post about it on the board and let us follow your journey as you discover the show. I would love to find out what you think of it and I am sure others would too.

I love your “fly on the wall” analogy. Dallas, KL and Falcon Crest all felt like that. It wasn’t so much I was watching a story or a play (at least at first with Dallas and up until season 9 with FC) as I was in the room watching and I wasn’t suppose to be. I remember in KL watching a scene for Summer’s campaign. My parents had me work local campaigns and I was familiar with the set up. It felt like I was sitting in the room doing a mailing and overhearing what went on, like I shouldn’t but I knew I was going to gossip about it the next day. I think that’s why the side characters, like Teresa and Raul were never explored (though Chao-Li was more than a servant, he was family). I don’t need Teresa’s back ground or Jeremy Wendell’s - I’m just gossiping about the families am spying on, Ewing Barnes, Fairgate McKenzie, Sumner, Gioberti Channing.