Donald Trump calls for a delay to the 2020 US Election

Frank Underwood

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People can either make their choices as it relates to the world as it is or they can hope for a fantasy of the world that they would like it to be. No matter how much they dislike the current choices, the next President will be Trump or Biden and a vote for another candidate is as good as voting for Trump. Like it or not, that is the reality.
Hillary Clinton received three million more votes than Trump, and he won anyway. That's the reality when you're dealing with a rigged political system.

The system was broken long before Trump came along, and he was able to exploit it with his faux populism. Biden's moderate Republican policies will make that inevitable yet again.

That's not strictly true. Except, for one throwaway comment by one forum member this thread, everything was about Trump and his suggestion that the election should be postponed. Everyone else was discussing the issue in relation to Trump's motives and how he has tried to overreach power in the past. You chose to shift the focus to an attack on Biden, and that perfectly fine, discussions are allowed to develop and change direction, but own it rather than point an accusing finger elsewhere.
It is true, and the finger's pointing right where it belongs. Both Michael Torrance and CeeCee72 took shots at voters like me, so tell them to "own it."

Imagine if this was a thread about a Biden proposal, and I strolled in and said all of you Biden supporters are naive, ludicrous, ignorant, and obtuse. Would that go unchallenged?

I try to stick to discussing the candidates as much as possible, but if people want to personalize their opinions, I'm happy to oblige.
 
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Frank Underwood

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By the way, did anyone happen to catch Bill Clinton thanking James Clyburn for ending Bernie's campaign? And at John Lewis's funeral, no less. Isn't it nice that a black man in power ushered his community to the guy responsible for locking them up and protecting the cops that brutalize them? And Obama, another black man, convinced the moderates to back Biden.

I'll never apologize for not pledging my loyalty to these primary rigging, war mongering, corporate-friendly, homophobic, racist, Wall Street owned neoliberal Democrats.

 
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Snarky's Ghost

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What Biden says and what Biden does may very well be two different things. Neither Trump nor Obama followed through on all of their campaign promises.
And during the first two years of Obama's presidency, he had a Democratic congress --- which shows how much the Democrats want to fix things.
 
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Michael Torrance

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People can either make their choices as it relates to the world as it is or they can hope for a fantasy of the world that they would like it to be. No matter how much they dislike the current choices, the next President will be Trump or Biden and a vote for another candidate is as good as voting for Trump. Like it or not, that is the reality.
There are always people who do not really want to make an actual choice and be held accountable for it later, but just want to keep the right to criticize from a higher-than-thou vantage point and tell others "I told you so." They can be far right or far left, and it does not matter the opinion as much as the attitude--and altitude. Fringe candidates help them, because they know their candidate will never really come to power. I find that I cannot really discuss anything political with them, so once I realize that is how they are, I let them have the field to their heart's groaning content.
 

Angela Channing

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There are always people who do not really want to make an actual choice and be held accountable for it later, but just want to keep the right to criticize from a higher-than-thou vantage point and tell others "I told you so." They can be far right or far left, and it does not matter the opinion as much as the attitude--and altitude. Fringe candidates help them, because they know their candidate will never really come to power. I find that I cannot really discuss anything political with them, so once I realize that is how they are, I let them have the field to their heart's groaning content.
:gp:
 

Frank Underwood

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There are always people who do not really want to make an actual choice and be held accountable for it later, but just want to keep the right to criticize from a higher-than-thou vantage point and tell others "I told you so." They can be far right or far left, and it does not matter the opinion as much as the attitude--and altitude. Fringe candidates help them, because they know their candidate will never really come to power. I find that I cannot really discuss anything political with them, so once I realize that is how they are, I let them have the field to their heart's groaning content.
And yet none of you hold the people who chose Biden to be the Democratic nominee accountable. They literally chose the worst possible candidate, and the most conservative at that.

Some of you believe this is about saying "I told you so," but it's really about pointing out how the system was broken before Trump and how he exploited those flaws in 2016. If you refuse to implement policies that improve people's lives, you open the door for a conman like Trump. That won't go away until the government works towards equality in all aspects of life.

I voted for Obama twice, and I was held accountable for that when I ended up with a moderate Republican agenda that I didn't want. This included war crimes and civil liberties violations. Now I'm expected to vote for Biden, a guy who said he has no empathy for me and will do everything in his power to ensure that nothing fundamentally changes for his wealthy donors.

So-called "fringe" candidates wouldn't be fringe if more people had the courage to vote for them. Unfortunately, too many people are brainwashed into voting for the lesser of two evils to that point that they start defending that evil. They ironically do it from a "higher-than-thou" vantage point too, but they're incapable of recognizing their own attitude--and altitude.

Of course, it was clear during the primaries that you were never interested in having a real political discussion with Sanders supporters. You called us fanatics, dismissed our criticisms of the DNC's meddling and the media's propaganda, and called us far left for wanting basic social democracy. In another twist of irony, you were looking to say I told you so when Bernie lost.

Certain leftists ridiculously believe Biden will bring about normalcy and stability. They refuse to see his contribution to society's ills. Biden has no desire to change anything outside of being a bootlicker for the establishment, the media, and the intelligence community. His support for the Patriot Act alone proves he doesn't care about the Republic or the Constitution.

If you honestly believe voting for Biden is pragmatic, so be it. Just don't waste your time calling him "flawed" or "problematic" if you foolishly believe he will make life sufficiently better. As for me, I see Biden vs. Trump for the political theater it is. That's why I refuse to conform to the herd mentality that is so prevalent here. Without "fundamental change," voting is pointless.
 
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CeeCee72

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@Frank Underwood

Just for the record, yes, I "own it." I said. I own own it.

You don't get to, in post after post after post (to the point by of mind numbing repetition) get to take shot after shot at those of us who support Biden, insulting our intelligence, insinuating we don't understand his policies, accusing us of ignorance and then be outraged when someone FINALLY pushes back at you.

I am voting for Biden because my loyalty is to my country and Donald Trump is a dangerous threat to our Constitution in ways that no other American politician has ever been. You are voting for...whoever because your loyalty is to your pure progressive ideology.
 
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CeeCee72

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And not for nothing but progressives made the same argument against voting for Hilary. She was not better than Trump they said.

Huh.

Cause I am willing to bet my house that if she was president right now:

1. She would not be threatening to postpone our election.

2. We wouldn't have American citizens being kidnapped by secret police in large urban areas.

3. We wouldn't have 155,000 DEAD Americans because she would have formed at national response to Covid-19.

4. Kavenaugh and Gorsuch wouldn't be on the bench (talk about HARMFUL to progressive ideology!).

So there's a difference. A big one. And same for Biden.
 

Angela Channing

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And not for nothing but progressives made the same argument against voting for Hilary. She was not better than Trump they said.

Huh.

Cause I am willing to bet my house that if she was president right now:

1. She would not be threatening to postpone our election.

2. We wouldn't have American citizens being kidnapped by secret police in large urban areas.

3. We wouldn't have 155,000 DEAD Americans because she would have formed at national response to Covid-19.

4. Kavenaugh and Gorsuch wouldn't be on the bench (talk about HARMFUL to progressive ideology!).

So there's a difference. A big one. And same for Biden.
You make some really good points. :gp:

Another reason why Biden is a better option than Trump in November is that there could well be a vacancy on the Supreme Court during the next Presidential term. The 2 oldest justices (Ginsburg, 87 and Breyer, 81) are both on the liberal wing of the Supreme Court and may want to retire for health or other reasons. The SCOTUS already has a 5-4 conservative majority. If Trump wins and a vacancy comes up he will be able to lock in a conservative majority in the SCOTUS for a generation. This is just another reason why it's in the interests of liberals to stop Trump from winning a second term.
 

Frank Underwood

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@Frank Underwood

Just for the record, yes, I "own it." I said. I own own it.

You don't get to, in post after post after post (to the point by of mind numbing repetition) get to take shot after shot at those of us who support Biden, insulting our intelligence, insinuating we don't understand his policies, accusing us of ignorance and then be outraged when someone FINALLY pushes back at you.
So you all decided to "push back" in a thread I wasn't even involved with at that time?

I also never did any of those things until you accused me of being ignorant and obtuse first. I have corrected people for incorrectly stating that Trump has no policies and that Biden will protect the Republic and the Constitution by citing evidence to the contrary. However, that's not an insult. I certainly never called anyone names until you all used them against me first.

I don't think you're ignorant if you've read the articles and watched the videos I've posted, but I do think you've set a low bar to the point you believe Biden is better than he really is.

I am voting for Biden because my loyalty is to my country and Donald Trump is a dangerous threat to our Constitution in ways that no other American politician has ever been. You are voting for...whoever because your loyalty is to your pure progressive ideology.
Biden's made it clear he has no loyalty to the Constitution, he flat out said he has no empathy for me, he's keeping life cozy for his donors, and he's an unrepentant war criminal.

Excuse me if I don't believe voting for him will bring about positive change. Biden's support for the Iraq War and the Patriot Act prove he doesn't give a damn about the Constitution.
 
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Frank Underwood

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And not for nothing but progressives made the same argument against voting for Hilary. She was not better than Trump they said.

Huh.

Cause I am willing to bet my house that if she was president right now:

1. She would not be threatening to postpone our election.

2. We wouldn't have American citizens being kidnapped by secret police in large urban areas.

3. We wouldn't have 155,000 DEAD Americans because she would have formed at national response to Covid-19.

4. Kavenaugh and Gorsuch wouldn't be on the bench (talk about HARMFUL to progressive ideology!).

So there's a difference. A big one. And same for Biden.
So you don't like my repetition, yet you keeping talking about people being kidnapped by secret police. Maybe you should actually read up on the NDAA that Obama signed. According to the ACLU, "On December 31, 2011, President Obama signed the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), codifying indefinite military detention without charge or trial into law for the first time in American history. The NDAA’s dangerous detention provisions would authorize the president — and all future presidents — to order the military to pick up and indefinitely imprison people captured anywhere in the world, far from any battlefield." Hmm, sounds creepily like what's happening today. Funny how Trump's enablers are never held accountable.

But I'm sure life would be grand as Hillary continued denying people healthcare, refused to reform our criminal justice system (she supported Biden's crime bill), deported children fleeing violence in their countries to "send a message" (her words), and plunged us into more needless wars resultings in thousands of civilian deaths, as well as the deaths of American soldiers.

Any Supreme Court Justice nominees she appointed would likely be milquetoast moderates like Merrick Garland. Hell, her VP pick was even more conservative than she was!

Hillary also supported trade deals that cost Americans their jobs. All Trump had to do was come out against those trade deals in order to win over the rust belt. Chuck Schumer arrogantly said that they would pick up two moderate Republicans for every blue collar Democrat they lost. If that doesn't tell you who the Democrats are working for, I don't know what does.

Now the Dems are fighting Trump because they don't think he's war mongering enough, they've helped fast track many of his judges, they increased his warrantless spying powers and his military budget, ect. Sorry if that "insults your intelligence," but those are the facts. But by all means, be offended over the repetition of the truth rather than the inconvenience of it.
 
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Frank Underwood

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And as for the original topic, it's funny that you're taking Trump's threat to postpone the election so seriously when there are safeguards in place to prevent it.

Instead of being viewed as the ineffective ramblings of a wannabe dictator, it's being treated like something that could actually happen.
 

CeeCee72

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1. I never called you out by name. I said "anyone." You're the one who chose to take it personally. I believe "anyone" who can't see the difference between Biden and Trump is being deliberately obtuse. I said it, I own it. I didn't engage you until you posted all your sputtering outrage. YOU made it about you. Then I "pushed back" against you. You, day after day, insult the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you. Yet you can't take a general statement directed at people who feel the way you do? Get some thicker skin or stop being such a self important lecturer to everyone else.

2. If you can not see the difference in the threat to progressive ideals posed by a moderate like Garland as opposed to Gorsuch and Kavenaugh, then YES you ARE being deliberately obtuse. I mean really? You're upset that moderate judges won't be more progressive, so you're good with right wing justices rolling back the progress that has already been made? Okay... Just WOW.

3. Your criticism of Obama is legitimate. However, give me ONE example of a time when he used his ill gotten powers to occupy American cities, arrest American citizens, detain American citizens in undisclosed locations by unidentified officers. I'll wait. Believe it or not their are varying degrees of good and evil.

4. Safeguards are in place to keep Trump from delaying the election? Cool story. Safeguards are also in place to keep him from illegally benefitting financially from being President. Safeguards are also in place to remove him from office for breaking the law. Safeguards are also in place to keep him from arresting, detaining, and teargasing American citizens for practicing the First Amendment. How are those safe guards working out for us?

My comment about "insulting our intelligence" was a general statement. Unlike you, I don't have a big enough ego to think everything is directed at me. Also, I should have said you TRY to insult the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you. In reality You could not POSSIBLY insult MY intelligence, so need for you to be "sorry" about it.
 
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Frank Underwood

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1. I never called you out by name. I said "anyone." You're the one who chose to take it personally. I believe "anyone" who can't see the difference between Biden and Trump is being deliberately obtuse. I said it, I own it. I didn't engage you until you posted all your sputtering outrage. YOU made it about you. Then I "pushed back" against you. You, day after day, insult the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you. Yet you can't take a general statement directed at people who feel the way you do? Get some thicker skin or stop being such a self important lecturer to everyone else.
How many people here share my point of view? Snarky's the only other person I can think of. Calling people ignorant and obtuse in a thread about Trump wanting to postpone the election seemed rather odd. Nobody said a word about not voting for Biden in this thread up to that point, yet both you and Michael Torrance decided to take the opportunity anyway to bash third party voters and non voters. Telling me to get thicker skin doesn't change the fact that both posts were obviously meant to provoke people with a different perspective. You saying that I'm trying to insult the intelligence of people who disagree with me is simply not true. All I'm trying to do is inform people as to why I believe voting for Biden won't solve anything. Whether you realize it or not, the "Biden will restore normalcy and stability" and "Biden will defend our Republic and Constitution" posts have their own self-important lecturer vibe to them.

2. If you can not see the difference in the threat to progressive ideals posed by a moderate like Garland as opposed to Gorsuch and Kavenaugh, then YES you ARE being deliberately obtuse. I mean really? You're upset that moderate judges won't be more progressive, so you're good with right wing justices rolling back the progress that has already been made? Okay... Just WOW.
Sorry, but you've once again cornered the market when it comes to being deliberately obtuse. Conservatives are actually upset because the conservative judges aren't rolling back the progress that has already been made. Here's an excerpt from a Vanity Fair article: The promise of conservative courts was one of the major factors that convinced wary Republicans to look past Donald Trump’s obvious flaws and pull the lever for him in 2016. It was supposed to similarly animate the base in 2020. While Trump has confirmed more than 200 federal judges, surprising liberal victories in Supreme Court decisions this term have rankled conservatives, who feel “betrayed” by what was meant to be a right-wing bench, and led to mounting GOP scrutiny of the list Trump has touted of potential future appointees.

Source: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/202...-trumps-supreme-court-picks-failed-to-deliver

3. Your criticism of Obama is legitimate. However, give me ONE example of a time when he used his ill gotten powers to occupy American cities, arrest American citizens, detain American citizens in undisclosed locations by unidentified officers. I'll wait. Believe it or not their are varying degrees of good and evil.
The issue is that his signing of the NDAA enabled Trump to do what he's doing today.

I also posted an article about how the Democrats approved a bill that funds the Department of Homeland Security without restrictions, which is deploying Trump's agents in these cities.

And yes, there are varying degrees of good and evil. Being a war criminal who illegally spies on Americans, leaves millions without healthcare, and enables future presidents to use federal agents to kidnap Americans on US soil is sufficiently evil enough not to support from my perspective. I voted for Obama twice, and I still got a right wing agenda. Biden's even worse.

4. Safeguards are in place to keep Trump from delaying the election? Cool story. Safeguards are also in place to keep him from illegally benefitting financially from being President. Safeguards are also in place to remove him from office for breaking the law. Safeguards are also in place to keep him from arresting, detaining, and teargasing American citizens for practicing the First Amendment. How are those safe guards working out for us?
The only crime he committed that the Democrats acted on was tying Ukraine's military aid to investigating Biden's son. They never tried to impeach Trump for his war crimes or violating the emoluments clause. Biden and other Democrats approved giving military gear to police, which is now being used against US citizens. And despite condemning federal agents hauling US citizens away in unmarked vans, the Democrats are still funding the department responsible for the deployments without restrictions. And when it comes to issues such as war and illegally spying on Americans, the Democrats have backed Trump. In some ways, they're even worse. For example, they're trying to prevent Trump from reducing troops in Afghanistan!

My comment about "insulting our intelligence" was a general statement. Unlike you, I don't have a big enough ego to think everything is directed at me. Also, I should have said you TRY to insult the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you. In reality You could not POSSIBLY insult MY intelligence, so need for you to be "sorry" about it.
A "general statement" that you just happened to tag me in, huh? My ego generally thinks something is directed at me when it is directed at me!

And since I was never trying to insult your intelligence to begin with, it doesn't matter whether I POSSIBLY could or not. I just wish you would stop trying to insult my intelligence by telling me Biden will bring about "normalcy and stability," and that he will defend "the Republic and the Constitution." Harm reduction is one thing, but what you're stating is just silly.
 
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CeeCee72

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I tagged you only AFTER you threw a hissy fit and insisted we "own our words."

We could argue about this forever. You believe what you believe.

And FWIW, no one said third party voters don't have a right to vote however they want. However, they very well could be responsible for keeping Trump in office. Obviously, you're fine with that. You want to throw away our Republic to prove a point about the evil of Democrats. Fine. Not me though. And I am done engaging with you.

YOU threw a tantrum about a general statement then got outraged when I didn't back down. Sorry, but you think I am part of the problem? I think the same about you.

Just move on.
 

Frank Underwood

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I would never have even posted in this thread had you and your cohort not made jabs at voters like me with your so-called "general statement."

It's funny to be called sanctimonious and holier than thou by people who sit on their high horses, convinced that voting for Biden will "save the Republic." I already explained why I don't believe that's the case, but it's apparently easier to make unfounded assertions regarding my decision than it is to contend with the facts that brought me to that decision. The oligarchs and the military industrial complex control both parties, and all of the war crimes and illegal spying they commit proves they don't give a damn about the Republic or the Constitution.

And as you worry about Trump putting conservative justices on the bench, keep in mind that Biden said he was open to having a Republican as his VP. That's who these people are.

But if you really want me to "move on," try taking your own advice. Until then, here's a quick refresher as to why Democrats vs Republicans is political theater:



 
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CeeCee72

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No one, absolutely NO ONE is arguing with you that Democrats and Republicans are two sides of the same coin.

Donald Trump is a member of the Republican party, but he isn't a Republican. He CHOSE to run as a Republican to capitalize on the power vacum that existed in the party in 2016, using the racial outrage against Barack Obama as way in.

It's funny to me that you continue to justify his criminal activities with right wing talking points, totally disregard the 155,000 American deaths that he is directly at fault for, and deny his disastrous influence on our Constitutional institutions.

But as I have said over and over, debate is useless. I can't convince you and so there is no need to try. So yes, I am moving on. I am not going to beat my head up against a brick wall.

And I don't have any "cohort." I DO find it interesting that you would think you were being ganged up on simply because more than one person disagrees with you and had the absolute audacity to say so. I suppose that's easier to stomach than the thought that you have the minority opinion.
 

Frank Underwood

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Slavery, segregation, and women lacking the right to vote all used to be in line with the "majority opinion" as well. Hell, even socialism used to be feared by the masses.

Of course, the idea that I'm justifying Trump's criminal activities with right wing talking points is beyond absurd. If that were true, I wouldn't point out all of the ways the Democrats have failed to hold Trump accountable for his crimes, and how they're actually complicit in many of them. Accusing the Democrats of enabling Trump to get away with his crimes is not even remotely a right wing talking point. Have you actually listened to the right? They disingenuously believe that the establishment Democrats are radical Communists. That's why Trump's attacks on Biden are an abysmal failure. He's trying to convince people that Biden is a Trojan horse for Bernie Sanders, when Biden has shown he has no interest in reforming anything.

I'm also not disregarding the Americans that have died as a result of Trump's abysmal response to Covid-19, but what would Clinton or Biden have done to reduce the death count? Hillary infamously said single payer "would never come to pass," and Biden still doesn't support Medicare for all as the pandemic continues out of control. But that's always been the problem with the Democrats. They've always been incredibly tone deaf. Biden doesn't want to give everybody healthcare in the middle of a pandemic, and he wants to increase funding for the police as all of the "tough on crime" legislation he supported continues to result in police brutality across the country. And yet you're obviously content to disregard all of that. You've also chosen to disregard Biden's "disastrous influence on our Constitutional institutions" with his votes for the Iraq War and the Patriot Act, so you clearly have a tolerance for such behavior.

And for the record, I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. That's life, and I obviously have disagreements with people too. What I took offense to were the insults used towards people you disagree with, which included me. If I randomly went off in a thread about how people I disagree with are either naive, ludicrous, willfully ignorant, or obtuse, I imagine those people would be rightly upset. Especially if nothing had been said in that thread to provoke such a response. This thread showcases the downside of the herd mentality.
 
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Frank Underwood

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CeeCee72 said:
No one, absolutely NO ONE is arguing with you that Democrats and Republicans are two sides of the same coin.

Donald Trump is a member of the Republican party, but he isn't a Republican. He CHOSE to run as a Republican to capitalize on the power vacum that existed in the party in 2016, using the racial outrage against Barack Obama as way in.
You're half right. Trump also came out against the disastrous trade deals the Democrats supported in order to appeal to the working class. Bernie Sanders was against them too.

Michael Bloomberg was a former Republican who tried to buy the Democratic nomination, and Biden previously said he was open to a Republican VP. Hillary Clinton was also a former Republican, Kamala Harris was a conservative prosecutor, and Pete Buttigieg looked and spoke like the leader of the young Republicans club. Anybody left of center has no representation.

So what makes a person a "real" Republican or a Democrat? FDR and Bill Clinton were both registered Democrats, yet Clinton vehemently opposed FDR's social democracy policies.
 
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