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- September 2004
I never interpreted it like Val's brain virus was going to break them up. I just thought it was one of those bad times that they had to go through together.They'd tease the reconciliation possibility, and then it was gone again. I think Season 5 DVD would have been too soon, but it could have happened after Gary and Abby's divorce happening around the same time that Ben disappeared, or after Jill's death, but it wasn't until Danny was seen as a complete psycho by Val that she and Gary got back together. Even after Danny's death, they teased that the reunion might be shortlived with Val's brain virus.
I do agree however that they should have gotten back together again after Gary was divorced from Abby and Ben had deserted Valene. The way they had her fall for Danny instead who turned out to be a real psycho didn't make any sense.
Especially since everything in the first half of season nine was leading up to a reconcilation.
So surely it would have been better if they had been properly back together again after this instead of it being just a weak moment...
At this point Gary wanted to get back together with Valene and even broke up with Jill to be with her. But then Valene brushed him off after Jill had confronted her about it.
So apparently Val didn't want them to get back together. Why do you think that was?
I think that Valene was afraid to let Gary in again only to have him leave her again. So she'd rather be the one who would hurt him. At least that's the way I interpreted it.
I remember that scene, such a wicked way to pry about Gary and Valene's relationship.And wasn't there that scene with a toy house, when Jill was asking Betsy what her mother and Gary did? And yeah, they really teased a Ben return at that time, even using his voice too. And as I've said before, the feeling when Ben left near the end of Season 8 was that he would definitely be back in the future, but he never did come back.
I never thought Ben left for good either. But the first time I watched the show I was glad to see him go since I wanted Val and Gary together and I didn't like how Ben cheated on Val with Cathy or the whole Jeanne Hackney plot. The second time around I grew to love Ben and was sad to see him leave.
Yeah Val had a lot of backbone and always learnt from her experiences and grew stronger all the time. I liked that scene in Jill's office when she was all like "it's not gonna be poor Val anymore. From now on it's gonna be poor Jill" and Jill was completely fearing what Valene might do to her. Yet I never thought Valene was capable of murder so when Jill suddenly turned up in the trunk of Gary's car it sure puzzled me as I couldn't figure out who had killed her and planted the body there!It's a worst nightmare. Not only is somebody effectively killing you, but they are going to make it look like a suicide so that nobody else will know the truth that you were murdered. Danny tried the same with Gary later, which also backfired, although Danny was already dead once Gary came back to his proper state of mind, whereas Val had to contend with Jill for a while. Funnily enough, Jill became quite scared of Val towards the end of her life once Val had ditched her fear and seen Jill for what she really is, so the dynamic between the two of them had completely changed. If Val is vulnerable, she won't stay that way for long. She adapts, gets tougher and fights back. This is a woman who stood up to J.R. as a teenager even when wounded, don't forget.
Did you figure it out the first time you saw it or was it a twist you didn't see coming?
Also it's sort of funny how so many pieces of Jill's perfect crime backfired on her. I mean first of all, her intended victim survived and could tell on her. Then her alabi had a STD and wanted her and Gary to get tested for it. I think that part was hilarious!
Oh yeah the way he murdered Ciji because she refused to have an abortion was ruthless. Or maybe it was because she threatened to expose his real identify?Everything about him. His history as Tony Fenice and him being a fugitive from physical abuse, enough to change his whole identity and move elsewhere. He can then forge new relationships and come across as a nice guy to a lot of people, although Mack saw through him early. There's also this thing of easing his own conscience through something like his relationship with Lilimae. It's like "I'm kind to her. She likes me and we're almost like mother and son. I'm not that bad, really. If she ever sees the real me, I'll deal with it then, but I hope our relationship stays like it is". And then his girlfriend Ciji, a woman very open, easy going and honest with a knack of annoying a lot of people. She wasn't ruthless enough when she saw the real Chip and paid with her life when he felt threatened by her stubbornness.
I agree, Ciji was more innocent and sweet somehow. Cathy had already spent time in jail before she came to Knots Landing and that experience made her tougher. In a way Cathy and Joshua was completely mismatched and it seemed like he was the sweet and innocent one whereas she was the seductress that brought him down with her. Yet their relationship completely changed once they were married and he became the abusive, controlling partner.Compare Ciji's relationship with Chip to Cathy's relationship with Joshua. Cathy was more fortunate because she was a more manipulative character than Ciji and could save herself before it was too late.
I think the problem was that Diana loved Chip. I think he was her first love really so a part of her thought it was romantic that he would do anything for her. Yet the more logical part of her knew he was a bad guy and that she should get away from him. So Diana was torn between her love for Chip and her knowledge of what was right. Torn between her lover/husband and her family.He meant it when he did it. Sociopaths can then switch off the killer and become a normal person. Look at his relationship with Diana too. Diana was absolutely terrified of him for a while after he kidnapped her, but before long she had fallen for him strongly. A classic case of Stockholm syndrome, which is quite common in kidnappings, especially with young impressionable victims.
Unfortunately I thought that plot ruined Diana's character. Up until that point I thought she was smart and someone I could identify with, after that I thought she was stupid and annoying.
I think you are probably right about that since I didn't even realize he was a villain until he'd been on the show for a whole season. I just thought of him as a con-man. But not really a villain. I guess that was one of the Knots strenght that they didn't always let their audience in on who was a bad guy until later on. So when Chip and Jill first showed up we couldn't know how crazy they would turn out to be.I think Chip was the best villain in Knots Landing, personally. So multi-layered.
I remember I even liked Danny when he first showed up.
But at least with him he showed his true colors faster than Chip or Jill and everyone could tell what a jerk he was. Everyone except Val that was who still went ahead and married the guy even after everybody told her not to!
I guess Joshua must have held a lot of resentment inside of him for his mother abandoning him as a child. It must have completely messed him up. Also his father hitting him didn't help either. I guess it taught Joshua not to trust in people.A lot of it was already there when Joshua arrived in Knots Landing. I think he was looking for something different in his life, something to stop the downward spiral.
I think a part of Joshua's problem was that he had lacked his mother all his life and probably had thought to himself that if only his mother hadn't died when he was a baby he would have been happier. So Joshua finds out that his mother didn't die and got to move in with her and have a relationship with her. That should have made him feel happy and contented but it didn't since instead it made him resent his mother for abandoning him. On top of that he felt guilty for sleeping with Cathy without being married to her since he thought it was a sin. Or at least that's what his father had taught him. So Joshua basically learnt that everything he had believed in all his life had been a lie and that brought out an identity crisis where he had to figure out who he was. That he also became famous at that point didn't help at all.With Joshua and Lilimae, he's her son, but it was like they were both hoping that their relationship and circumstances were somewhat different. With Chip and Lilimae, while no relation, the mother and son like relationship that they had was loved by both of them, although Chip knew it was a lie. Chip and Lilimae were happier. Joshua was too obviously damaged. really. And of course, even when Lilimae knew the truth about Chip, she still felt strong emotion, sadness, anger and regret that the Chip she liked was a lie. With Joshua, it was devastating for her but I reckon a part of her knew that he was too damaged.
Then as for Chip and Joshua's deaths, Lilimae did react differently to them both. With Chip she had tried to kill him herself when he was released for Ciji's death and refused to take responsibility after she had talked to him. It made her realize what a cold man he was. So when he finally died a part of her thought that he had gotten what was coming to him. Yet she was still sad since she had loved him like a son. I think that showed in that scene where she's talking to him when he's in the coffin.
Still I think her grief over Joshua was harder for her to bear, since at least with Chip she knew that she had done what she could to save him. But with Joshua she had failed him as a mother so she blamed herself for her son's suicide/accident. She blamed herself so much that she didn't even want to admit that Joshua had wanted to die. It was easier for her to believe it was an accident and she was even willing to let another man go to jail for murdering her son even when she knew all along how Joshua had died since she was there. So it took Val for her to realize that she had to tell the police what she knew.
Also what made Joshua's death worse was that she had to also answer to Joshua's father, who blamed her for their son's death.
Good point.As he said, it tasted bad. Alcoholism is largely in the mind. So with Gary, he didn't lapse, a horrible villain forced alcohol down his throat. When he sobers up and is still alive, there's no turmoil like there would be if he had fallen off the wagon through his own choice.
In Sweden you have to be 18 to get married. However you are allowed to get married earlier if you have your parents consent. I have a friend who got married when she was 16, unfortunately by the time she was 23 she was already divorced.Where I live, 18 is fine to decide yourself to get married. It might be wrong for Olivia to marry Harold, and you can tell her that, but I think Abby went over the top. I'd actually challenge Olivia to prove me wrong if she didn't listen. And if she messes up, I can tell her that I explained it all along, and ask her to learn lessons for the future. If she proves me wrong, then I learn a lesson.
In Britain, where I live, there are different laws in different parts. In England and Wales, you can get married at 16 and 17, but only if you have permission from two parents and/or legal guardians, and you have to be 18 to get married without parental permission in England and Wales. In Scotland, however, there's a different law, where you can get married at 16 without parental permission, so we often have cases in Britain of 16 and 17 year olds from England and Wales eloping to Scotland in order to get married without parental permission.
Personally I think it would be better if the legal age to get married would be 21 since when you are a teenager you are not mature enough to make those kind of lifelong decisions. Your brain is not even fully developed until you are 20. So you make hasty decisions that are not very rational. But maybe that's just my opinion. I do have another friend who got married at 18 and who is still happily married to her husband. So I guess it does work out for some people to get married young.