Gary & Valene Appreciation Thread

Karin Schill

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They'd tease the reconciliation possibility, and then it was gone again. I think Season 5 DVD would have been too soon, but it could have happened after Gary and Abby's divorce happening around the same time that Ben disappeared, or after Jill's death, but it wasn't until Danny was seen as a complete psycho by Val that she and Gary got back together. Even after Danny's death, they teased that the reunion might be shortlived with Val's brain virus.
I never interpreted it like Val's brain virus was going to break them up. I just thought it was one of those bad times that they had to go through together.

I do agree however that they should have gotten back together again after Gary was divorced from Abby and Ben had deserted Valene. The way they had her fall for Danny instead who turned out to be a real psycho didn't make any sense. :confuse:
Especially since everything in the first half of season nine was leading up to a reconcilation.

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So surely it would have been better if they had been properly back together again after this instead of it being just a weak moment...
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At this point Gary wanted to get back together with Valene and even broke up with Jill to be with her. But then Valene brushed him off after Jill had confronted her about it.

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So apparently Val didn't want them to get back together. Why do you think that was?

I think that Valene was afraid to let Gary in again only to have him leave her again. So she'd rather be the one who would hurt him. At least that's the way I interpreted it.


And wasn't there that scene with a toy house, when Jill was asking Betsy what her mother and Gary did? And yeah, they really teased a Ben return at that time, even using his voice too. And as I've said before, the feeling when Ben left near the end of Season 8 was that he would definitely be back in the future, but he never did come back.
I remember that scene, such a wicked way to pry about Gary and Valene's relationship.

I never thought Ben left for good either. But the first time I watched the show I was glad to see him go since I wanted Val and Gary together and I didn't like how Ben cheated on Val with Cathy or the whole Jeanne Hackney plot. The second time around I grew to love Ben and was sad to see him leave. :(

It's a worst nightmare. Not only is somebody effectively killing you, but they are going to make it look like a suicide so that nobody else will know the truth that you were murdered. Danny tried the same with Gary later, which also backfired, although Danny was already dead once Gary came back to his proper state of mind, whereas Val had to contend with Jill for a while. Funnily enough, Jill became quite scared of Val towards the end of her life once Val had ditched her fear and seen Jill for what she really is, so the dynamic between the two of them had completely changed. If Val is vulnerable, she won't stay that way for long. She adapts, gets tougher and fights back. This is a woman who stood up to J.R. as a teenager even when wounded, don't forget.
Yeah Val had a lot of backbone and always learnt from her experiences and grew stronger all the time. I liked that scene in Jill's office when she was all like "it's not gonna be poor Val anymore. From now on it's gonna be poor Jill" and Jill was completely fearing what Valene might do to her. Yet I never thought Valene was capable of murder so when Jill suddenly turned up in the trunk of Gary's car it sure puzzled me as I couldn't figure out who had killed her and planted the body there! :eck:
Did you figure it out the first time you saw it or was it a twist you didn't see coming?

Also it's sort of funny how so many pieces of Jill's perfect crime backfired on her. I mean first of all, her intended victim survived and could tell on her. Then her alabi had a STD and wanted her and Gary to get tested for it. I think that part was hilarious! :D

Everything about him. His history as Tony Fenice and him being a fugitive from physical abuse, enough to change his whole identity and move elsewhere. He can then forge new relationships and come across as a nice guy to a lot of people, although Mack saw through him early. There's also this thing of easing his own conscience through something like his relationship with Lilimae. It's like "I'm kind to her. She likes me and we're almost like mother and son. I'm not that bad, really. If she ever sees the real me, I'll deal with it then, but I hope our relationship stays like it is". And then his girlfriend Ciji, a woman very open, easy going and honest with a knack of annoying a lot of people. She wasn't ruthless enough when she saw the real Chip and paid with her life when he felt threatened by her stubbornness.
Oh yeah the way he murdered Ciji because she refused to have an abortion was ruthless. Or maybe it was because she threatened to expose his real identify?:think:


Compare Ciji's relationship with Chip to Cathy's relationship with Joshua. Cathy was more fortunate because she was a more manipulative character than Ciji and could save herself before it was too late.
I agree, Ciji was more innocent and sweet somehow. Cathy had already spent time in jail before she came to Knots Landing and that experience made her tougher. In a way Cathy and Joshua was completely mismatched and it seemed like he was the sweet and innocent one whereas she was the seductress that brought him down with her. Yet their relationship completely changed once they were married and he became the abusive, controlling partner. :(


He meant it when he did it. Sociopaths can then switch off the killer and become a normal person. Look at his relationship with Diana too. Diana was absolutely terrified of him for a while after he kidnapped her, but before long she had fallen for him strongly. A classic case of Stockholm syndrome, which is quite common in kidnappings, especially with young impressionable victims.
I think the problem was that Diana loved Chip. I think he was her first love really so a part of her thought it was romantic that he would do anything for her. Yet the more logical part of her knew he was a bad guy and that she should get away from him. So Diana was torn between her love for Chip and her knowledge of what was right. Torn between her lover/husband and her family.

Unfortunately I thought that plot ruined Diana's character. Up until that point I thought she was smart and someone I could identify with, after that I thought she was stupid and annoying. :(


I think Chip was the best villain in Knots Landing, personally. So multi-layered.
I think you are probably right about that since I didn't even realize he was a villain until he'd been on the show for a whole season. I just thought of him as a con-man. But not really a villain. I guess that was one of the Knots strenght that they didn't always let their audience in on who was a bad guy until later on. So when Chip and Jill first showed up we couldn't know how crazy they would turn out to be.

I remember I even liked Danny when he first showed up. :embarrassed:
But at least with him he showed his true colors faster than Chip or Jill and everyone could tell what a jerk he was. Everyone except Val that was who still went ahead and married the guy even after everybody told her not to!

A lot of it was already there when Joshua arrived in Knots Landing. I think he was looking for something different in his life, something to stop the downward spiral.
I guess Joshua must have held a lot of resentment inside of him for his mother abandoning him as a child. It must have completely messed him up. Also his father hitting him didn't help either. I guess it taught Joshua not to trust in people.


With Joshua and Lilimae, he's her son, but it was like they were both hoping that their relationship and circumstances were somewhat different. With Chip and Lilimae, while no relation, the mother and son like relationship that they had was loved by both of them, although Chip knew it was a lie. Chip and Lilimae were happier. Joshua was too obviously damaged. really. And of course, even when Lilimae knew the truth about Chip, she still felt strong emotion, sadness, anger and regret that the Chip she liked was a lie. With Joshua, it was devastating for her but I reckon a part of her knew that he was too damaged.
I think a part of Joshua's problem was that he had lacked his mother all his life and probably had thought to himself that if only his mother hadn't died when he was a baby he would have been happier. So Joshua finds out that his mother didn't die and got to move in with her and have a relationship with her. That should have made him feel happy and contented but it didn't since instead it made him resent his mother for abandoning him. On top of that he felt guilty for sleeping with Cathy without being married to her since he thought it was a sin. Or at least that's what his father had taught him. So Joshua basically learnt that everything he had believed in all his life had been a lie and that brought out an identity crisis where he had to figure out who he was. That he also became famous at that point didn't help at all.

Then as for Chip and Joshua's deaths, Lilimae did react differently to them both. With Chip she had tried to kill him herself when he was released for Ciji's death and refused to take responsibility after she had talked to him. It made her realize what a cold man he was. So when he finally died a part of her thought that he had gotten what was coming to him. Yet she was still sad since she had loved him like a son. I think that showed in that scene where she's talking to him when he's in the coffin.

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Still I think her grief over Joshua was harder for her to bear, since at least with Chip she knew that she had done what she could to save him. But with Joshua she had failed him as a mother so she blamed herself for her son's suicide/accident. She blamed herself so much that she didn't even want to admit that Joshua had wanted to die. It was easier for her to believe it was an accident and she was even willing to let another man go to jail for murdering her son even when she knew all along how Joshua had died since she was there. So it took Val for her to realize that she had to tell the police what she knew.

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Also what made Joshua's death worse was that she had to also answer to Joshua's father, who blamed her for their son's death. :(

As he said, it tasted bad. Alcoholism is largely in the mind. So with Gary, he didn't lapse, a horrible villain forced alcohol down his throat. When he sobers up and is still alive, there's no turmoil like there would be if he had fallen off the wagon through his own choice.
Good point.

Where I live, 18 is fine to decide yourself to get married. It might be wrong for Olivia to marry Harold, and you can tell her that, but I think Abby went over the top. I'd actually challenge Olivia to prove me wrong if she didn't listen. And if she messes up, I can tell her that I explained it all along, and ask her to learn lessons for the future. If she proves me wrong, then I learn a lesson.

In Britain, where I live, there are different laws in different parts. In England and Wales, you can get married at 16 and 17, but only if you have permission from two parents and/or legal guardians, and you have to be 18 to get married without parental permission in England and Wales. In Scotland, however, there's a different law, where you can get married at 16 without parental permission, so we often have cases in Britain of 16 and 17 year olds from England and Wales eloping to Scotland in order to get married without parental permission.
In Sweden you have to be 18 to get married. However you are allowed to get married earlier if you have your parents consent. I have a friend who got married when she was 16, unfortunately by the time she was 23 she was already divorced. :(

Personally I think it would be better if the legal age to get married would be 21 since when you are a teenager you are not mature enough to make those kind of lifelong decisions. Your brain is not even fully developed until you are 20. So you make hasty decisions that are not very rational. But maybe that's just my opinion. I do have another friend who got married at 18 and who is still happily married to her husband. So I guess it does work out for some people to get married young. :)
 

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At this point Gary wanted to get back together with Valene and even broke up with Jill to be with her. But then Valene brushed him off after Jill had confronted her about it.

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So apparently Val didn't want them to get back together. Why do you think that was?
Val got cold feet. She was glad to be back with Gary in bed for a while but she was not fully over her marriage to Ben, especially with the matter of Bobby and Betsy's parentage complicating things in Val's mind, and she felt a certain unease at that time about what getting back with Gary as a live-in couple would mean. At that point, her tolerance threshold of Gary's faults was lower than usual.

I think that Valene was afraid to let Gary in again only to have him leave her again. So she'd rather be the one who would hurt him. At least that's the way I interpreted it.
That's a part of it, too. Fear of getting hurt again.

I remember that scene, such a wicked way to pry about Gary and Valene's relationship.

I never thought Ben left for good either. But the first time I watched the show I was glad to see him go since I wanted Val and Gary together and I didn't like how Ben cheated on Val with Cathy or the whole Jeanne Hackney plot. The second time around I grew to love Ben and was sad to see him leave. :(
I wonder what did happen to Ben in Central America? Was he killed by Contra mercenaries?

Yeah Val had a lot of backbone and always learnt from her experiences and grew stronger all the time. I liked that scene in Jill's office when she was all like "it's not gonna be poor Val anymore. From now on it's gonna be poor Jill" and Jill was completely fearing what Valene might do to her. Yet I never thought Valene was capable of murder so when Jill suddenly turned up in the trunk of Gary's car it sure puzzled me as I couldn't figure out who had killed her and planted the body there! :eck:
Did you figure it out the first time you saw it or was it a twist you didn't see coming?
Jill's body in the boot of the car completely threw me the first time I saw it. I didn't know what to think. It looked like Gary had killed her and was disposing of the body, but I also thought that that would be too obvious. Somebody else could have killed her such as Val (although I didn't think Val would kill her either, as you say). Jill accidentally killing herself while trying to frame Gary for kidnap was what it was in the end, and it made more sense than Gary or Val killing Jill.

Also it's sort of funny how so many pieces of Jill's perfect crime backfired on her. I mean first of all, her intended victim survived and could tell on her. Then her alabi had a STD and wanted her and Gary to get tested for it. I think that part was hilarious! :D
It really blew up in her face.

I agree, Ciji was more innocent and sweet somehow. Cathy had already spent time in jail before she came to Knots Landing and that experience made her tougher. In a way Cathy and Joshua was completely mismatched and it seemed like he was the sweet and innocent one whereas she was the seductress that brought him down with her. Yet their relationship completely changed once they were married and he became the abusive, controlling partner. :(
Joshua blamed Cathy for his "sinning", and his previous self-pity was fading in comparison to his rage at the world. His own doom was then set in motion.

I think the problem was that Diana loved Chip. I think he was her first love really so a part of her thought it was romantic that he would do anything for her. Yet the more logical part of her knew he was a bad guy and that she should get away from him. So Diana was torn between her love for Chip and her knowledge of what was right. Torn between her lover/husband and her family.

Unfortunately I thought that plot ruined Diana's character. Up until that point I thought she was smart and someone I could identify with, after that I thought she was stupid and annoying. :(
She was a teenager, though. Teenagers and romance often do cringeworthy and embarrassing things, and make mistakes. Prior to that, Diana was terrified of Chip and tried to escape from him, but he won her round to the extent that she was a strong defender of him after he got caught and impaled.

I think you are probably right about that since I didn't even realize he was a villain until he'd been on the show for a whole season. I just thought of him as a con-man. But not really a villain. I guess that was one of the Knots strenght that they didn't always let their audience in on who was a bad guy until later on. So when Chip and Jill first showed up we couldn't know how crazy they would turn out to be.
True, we knew early on that Chip was a con-man of some sort, but we couldn't have guessed until later about the physical abuse of women and murder in Ciji's case, and the change of identity.

I remember I even liked Danny when he first showed up. :embarrassed:
Yeah, me too. Nice guy Danny only lasted about 2-3 episodes before I started getting suspicious of him. Val took a lot longer to cotton on to what Danny was really like. She was in too much lust with him for a while, I think. Val said to Karen at one point something like "I've never been with any man who makes me feel so alive". Gosh, Danny must have been good in bed for Val to say that. It's the only explanation for Val not seeing Danny's true colours sooner. Mack and Karen realized what Danny was at that time.

But at least with him he showed his true colors faster than Chip or Jill and everyone could tell what a jerk he was. Everyone except Val that was who still went ahead and married the guy even after everybody told her not to!
All the more satisfying when Val did dump him and revelled in telling Danny that she was getting back with Gary. Of course, by this point, Danny was scary in a very unnerving way. Danny could send chills down the spine in a way that even Chip and Joshua never could by mixing his raging anger with a coldness as cold as ice. Chip nearly always gave off an air to other people of being in control which largely masked his true colours, but Danny didn't seem to care that people thought he was crazy. Danny was openly crazy and was dangerous as well.

I guess Joshua must have held a lot of resentment inside of him for his mother abandoning him as a child. It must have completely messed him up. Also his father hitting him didn't help either. I guess it taught Joshua not to trust in people.
Yes. Joshua hated himself too, and he hated even more the evil, sinful world around him. That extreme religious line of thought is the path to self-destruction.

I think a part of Joshua's problem was that he had lacked his mother all his life and probably had thought to himself that if only his mother hadn't died when he was a baby he would have been happier. So Joshua finds out that his mother didn't die and got to move in with her and have a relationship with her. That should have made him feel happy and contented but it didn't since instead it made him resent his mother for abandoning him. On top of that he felt guilty for sleeping with Cathy without being married to her since he thought it was a sin. Or at least that's what his father had taught him. So Joshua basically learnt that everything he had believed in all his life had been a lie and that brought out an identity crisis where he had to figure out who he was. That he also became famous at that point didn't help at all.
Yes, very true. People with identity crises, or crises with their religious or theoretical thought, are vulnerable.

Also what made Joshua's death worse was that she had to also answer to Joshua's father, who blamed her for their son's death. :(
The cheek of the man. He did most of the damage to Joshua. Although I still can't blame him fully, because Joshua is responsible for his own actions. Other people with similar backgrounds to Joshua manage to break free from all that indoctrination and feelings of shame for indulging in the "seven deadly sins".

In Sweden you have to be 18 to get married. However you are allowed to get married earlier if you have your parents consent. I have a friend who got married when she was 16, unfortunately by the time she was 23 she was already divorced. :(

Personally I think it would be better if the legal age to get married would be 21 since when you are a teenager you are not mature enough to make those kind of lifelong decisions. Your brain is not even fully developed until you are 20. So you make hasty decisions that are not very rational. But maybe that's just my opinion. I do have another friend who got married at 18 and who is still happily married to her husband. So I guess it does work out for some people to get married young. :)
I like the England and Wales law, 16 and 17 with parental permission, 18 without parental permission.
 
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At that point, her tolerance threshold of Gary's faults was lower than usual.
All the more satisfying when Val did dump him and revelled in telling Danny that she was getting back with Gary.
Initially she moved onto the ranch for safety. Without Danny, I wonder what it would have taken to get them back together.
Joshua blamed Cathy for his "sinning",
That's typical of abusers, isn't it? Blaming supposed faults of the woman for their own failures.
I wonder what did happen to Ben in Central America? Was he killed by Contra mercenaries?
They did end up presuming he was dead. It was the one loose end not tied up by the reunion.
 

Karin Schill

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Initially she moved onto the ranch for safety. Without Danny, I wonder what it would have taken to get them back together.
I don't know. Danny did do them a favor when he told Bobby that Gary was his daddy though, as it resolved an issue that they'd had for so many years. I mean that custody battle in season nine sure was nasty. After that it did get awkward between them. Until they both came to their senses and she allowed him the visitations rights and then he tore up the legal document. It had all been for nothing it seemed. Still that scene when they came to a truce was memorable in the sense that their emotions were once again written all over their faces.

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That's typical of abusers, isn't it? Blaming supposed faults of the woman for their own failures.
Yeah I think they are very controlling and manipulative people. It's sad how Joshua and Cathy's relationship went sour so fast since it didn't start out that way. Or well I guess in retrospect the warning signs were there all the time. But I was too young when I first watched Knots Landing to pick up on them. I thought Joshua and Cathy was a cute and romantic couple. :fp:

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I think a part of it was that I had a three year gap between when I watched season 6 and 7 and things didn't really get bad between them until in season 7. So that left me with the impression I had of them from season 6.

Joshua blamed Cathy for his "sinning", and his previous self-pity was fading in comparison to his rage at the world. His own doom was then set in motion.
Yes, not even marrying Cathy and making their relationship blessed in the eyes of God helped him. He still set out to destroy their love. It was like he didn't think he deserved to be happy. He was that self-destructive. Yet I do believe in his own way he did love Cathy. Unfortunately for her that is, since he didn't want to let her go quietly. He even tried to bring her into death with him. :eck:


I wonder what did happen to Ben in Central America? Was he killed by Contra mercenaries?
I think it was implied that he either got killed or went underground. I am not sure. He did break off all the contact with Valene but that could have been done to protect her from Jeanne Hackney. So it doesn't necessarily means that he was killed. :think:So chances are that he kept working in Central America for a while and them moved abroad taking another job assignment somewhere. He did seem to have a bit of itchy feet and missed his job as a correspondant. I think it was Doug Sheehan who chose to leave so maybe they kept it open ended in case he'd ever change his mind and decide to return.

They did end up presuming he was dead. It was the one loose end not tied up by the reunion.
True. I wonder what would have happened if Ben suddenly would have returned after Gary & Val had gotten remarried?
I mean then Val technically would still have been married to Ben so it would have gotten complicated. Since I think at that point she wanted to be married to Gary. Don't you?

Actually even though Val loved Ben I don't think she loved him as much as Gary. Since in a way it was always Gary for Valene and poor Ben knew it. I mean how many times didn't he happen to walk in on Val and Gary sharing one of their moments?

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Poor Ben, it was like no matter where he turned, Gary was always there seeing his children or Valene.

Val got cold feet. She was glad to be back with Gary in bed for a while but she was not fully over her marriage to Ben, especially with the matter of Bobby and Betsy's parentage complicating things in Val's mind, and she felt a certain unease at that time about what getting back with Gary as a live-in couple would mean. At that point, her tolerance threshold of Gary's faults was lower than usual.
I am sure that was a part of it. However not only was Val not over her marriage to Ben. She was still legally Ben's wife which meant that when she and Gary were together she was technically cheating on her husband with her ex. So I think that complicated things in Val's mind too. Gary was cheating on Jill too so I guess when Jill came to see Val she realized that she was now the other woman, doing to someone else what Abby had done to her and that made her feel guilty.

I think this scene implied that it was not the first time Gary stayed the night though. I mean first they were all laughing about how everyone thought they were having an affair and then after exchanging a couple of looks Gary closed the door and returned to Val rather than going home.

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So it is implied that the affair had been going on for a while rather than just being a moment of comfort after Laura's death.

Jill's body in the boot of the car completely threw me the first time I saw it. I didn't know what to think. It looked like Gary had killed her and was disposing of the body, but I also thought that that would be too obvious. Somebody else could have killed her such as Val (although I didn't think Val would kill her either, as you say). Jill accidentally killing herself while trying to frame Gary for kidnap was what it was in the end, and it made more sense than Gary or Val killing Jill.
She was a teenager, though. Teenagers and romance often do cringeworthy and embarrassing things, and make mistakes. Prior to that, Diana was terrified of Chip and tried to escape from him, but he won her round to the extent that she was a strong defender of him after he got caught and impaled.
True.

Yeah, me too. Nice guy Danny only lasted about 2-3 episodes before I started getting suspicious of him. Val took a lot longer to cotton on to what Danny was really like. She was in too much lust with him for a while, I think. Val said to Karen at one point something like "I've never been with any man who makes me feel so alive". Gosh, Danny must have been good in bed for Val to say that. It's the only explanation for Val not seeing Danny's true colours sooner. Mack and Karen realized what Danny was at that time.
Good point. I agree that she was more in lust with Danny than in love with him. I mean to really love someone you must know them and Valene didn't really know Danny all that well. It wasn't until after they were married that she found out about that other woman he had abused prior to Amanda. I don't like how they wrote Val at this point. I mean the same woman who threw out her own brother since she feared he would hurt her children now marries a man she barely knows, have him move into her home and become a step-father to her children even after Gary, Aunt Virginia and Amanda tells her what a creep Danny really was. She is so blinded by him it's ridiculous. :mad:
But yeah I am sure that Valene thought that she was in love with Danny and it wasn't until later that she realized what a mistake she'd made.

Also as for Aunt Virginia, am I the only one who thought that she was written pretty much in a similar way as Lili Mae would have been?
It was like she was a replacement for Lilimae. It's a bit of a shame that Julie didn't return as it would have been interesting to see what she would have made of Danny. I think she would ahve seen through his bullshit. Or what do you think?


All the more satisfying when Val did dump him and revelled in telling Danny that she was getting back with Gary. Of course, by this point, Danny was scary in a very unnerving way. Danny could send chills down the spine in a way that even Chip and Joshua never could by mixing his raging anger with a coldness as cold as ice. Chip nearly always gave off an air to other people of being in control which largely masked his true colours, but Danny didn't seem to care that people thought he was crazy. Danny was openly crazy and was dangerous as well.
I agree. I loved it when Danny when saw Gary and Val kissing on the sofa through the window. :) Like being on the outside looking in. I think Val was still married to Danny then.

Also the way Danny killed Pat was the worst. Although I do think Danny was better than Chip in the sense that it was an accident. He didn't mean to kill her and he was not without remorse as he did feel bad about killing the woman who had saved him after Val stabbed him. I think Val fighting back instead of letting Danny have his way with her took him by surprise as the other women in Danny's life with was not as strong as Valene.

I like the England and Wales law, 16 and 17 with parental permission, 18 without parental permission.
I still think it's too young to get married before 18. Still all this talk about marrying young made me think of Gary and Val. They supposedly got married when she was like 15 and he was 17, right? So I was thinking was that even legal in Texas?

I think they did get married in Texas and I doubt it was legal to get married before 18 there. So it seems sort of odd how they were even allowed to get married that young unless they lied about their age. :think:

Also Lili Mae was supposdly only 14 when she was married off to a man old enough to be her father. Thinking about that makes me feel sorry for Lili Mae as her situation was no better than the child brides of today that are being married off in their teenage years because their parents has chosen for them to take a husband. I don't think arranged marriages like that are fair to the teenagers in question. :(
It's different if they do love each other and want to get married like Gary and Val. Still even then getting married before the age of 18 probably means dropping out of High School so in that sense I think it's better to get married later after you have finished school. Which brings me to another question, when did Val finish High School?

I do know she went back to school in one of the earliers seasons of Knots since her first book was written as a school assignemnt. But I think she went to college then and not High School. Or do I remember it wrong? :confuse:

Finally let's end this post with this cute cap. :)
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Do you recognize which scene it is from?
 
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Val technically would still have been married to Ben
At some point she did divorce Ben in absentia so she wasn't committing bigamy when she remarried Gary.

Also as for Aunt Virginia, am I the only one who thought that she was written pretty much in a similar way as Lili Mae would have been?
It was like she was a replacement for Lilimae.
I think that's definitely what she was. A lot of shows replace characters with similar characters as an alternative to recasting. Look at how quickly Hawkeye got a new best friend and a new nemesis on M*A*S*H when Trapper and Frank left.

But I think she went to college then and not High School. Or do I remember it wrong?
I think she was studying for one of those equivalency diplomas - a GED, is it?
 

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I think it was implied that he either got killed or went underground. I am not sure. He did break off all the contact with Valene but that could have been done to protect her from Jeanne Hackney. So it doesn't necessarily means that he was killed. :think:So chances are that he kept working in Central America for a while and them moved abroad taking another job assignment somewhere. He did seem to have a bit of itchy feet and missed his job as a correspondant. I think it was Doug Sheehan who chose to leave so maybe they kept it open ended in case he'd ever change his mind and decide to return.
Douglas Sheehan was going to leave after Season 7, but was talked into staying for another year. I think darkening Ben's character in Season 8, and giving him a dark past with Jean Hackney, was a big part of him agreeing to do that season. Sheehan's departure after Season 8 was completely unrelated to the Season 9 budget cuts which saw Constance McCashin and Julie Harris leave.

True. I wonder what would have happened if Ben suddenly would have returned after Gary & Val had gotten remarried?
I mean then Val technically would still have been married to Ben so it would have gotten complicated. Since I think at that point she wanted to be married to Gary. Don't you?
Yes, definitely with Gary by then, but she would have felt bad a bit for Ben had he returned like that.

Actually even though Val loved Ben I don't think she loved him as much as Gary. Since in a way it was always Gary for Valene and poor Ben knew it. I mean how many times didn't he happen to walk in on Val and Gary sharing one of their moments?
Oh yes, Val loved Gary much more, but she did love the fact that Ben was solid and dependable. Gary, by contrast, was very complex and had a lot of weaknesses.

Poor Ben, it was like no matter where he turned, Gary was always there seeing his children or Valene.
Abby was annoyed too. She almost accepted it after a while, that Gary would run to Val when feeling insecure.

I am sure that was a part of it. However not only was Val not over her marriage to Ben. She was still legally Ben's wife which meant that when she and Gary were together she was technically cheating on her husband with her ex. So I think that complicated things in Val's mind too. Gary was cheating on Jill too so I guess when Jill came to see Val she realized that she was now the other woman, doing to someone else what Abby had done to her and that made her feel guilty.

I think this scene implied that it was not the first time Gary stayed the night though. I mean first they were all laughing about how everyone thought they were having an affair and then after exchanging a couple of looks Gary closed the door and returned to Val rather than going home.

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So it is implied that the affair had been going on for a while rather than just being a moment of comfort after Laura's death.
I'm sure they had a few nights like that at the time, probably both hoping that they'd get back together, but Gary's relationship with Jill was complicating things a bit.

Good point. I agree that she was more in lust with Danny than in love with him. I mean to really love someone you must know them and Valene didn't really know Danny all that well. It wasn't until after they were married that she found out about that other woman he had abused prior to Amanda. I don't like how they wrote Val at this point. I mean the same woman who threw out her own brother since she feared he would hurt her children now marries a man she barely knows, have him move into her home and become a step-father to her children even after Gary, Aunt Virginia and Amanda tells her what a creep Danny really was. She is so blinded by him it's ridiculous. :mad:
But yeah I am sure that Valene thought that she was in love with Danny and it wasn't until later that she realized what a mistake she'd made.

Also as for Aunt Virginia, am I the only one who thought that she was written pretty much in a similar way as Lili Mae would have been?
It was like she was a replacement for Lilimae. It's a bit of a shame that Julie didn't return as it would have been interesting to see what she would have made of Danny. I think she would ahve seen through his bullshit. Or what do you think?
Maybe not as quickly as Mack and Karen, but Lilimae would have cottoned on to him before Val certainly, like Virginia did. Danny wasn't exactly the best at hiding his dark side.

I agree. I loved it when Danny when saw Gary and Val kissing on the sofa through the window. :) Like being on the outside looking in. I think Val was still married to Danny then.

Also the way Danny killed Pat was the worst. Although I do think Danny was better than Chip in the sense that it was an accident. He didn't mean to kill her and he was not without remorse as he did feel bad about killing the woman who had saved him after Val stabbed him. I think Val fighting back instead of letting Danny have his way with her took him by surprise as the other women in Danny's life with was not as strong as Valene.
Danny made the mistake that so many others have made, thinking that Val is a vulnerable, soft touch, like she appears on the surface. In reality, get on her bad side, and she's like a dog with a bone. Even if they terrify her close to death and almost kill her, she will get tougher and strike back, as Jill found out. This is a big part of the reason as to why Gary loves her so much, that confidence, that stubborness, that organization, that ability to rebound from setbacks. For an insecure man like Gary who feels that he should be stronger, Val is the perfect fit.

I still think it's too young to get married before 18. Still all this talk about marrying young made me think of Gary and Val. They supposedly got married when she was like 15 and he was 17, right? So I was thinking was that even legal in Texas?
I'm not sure. I think they could get married younger if there was a pregnancy involved, especially with the stigma of unmarried mothers in those days, but we know from the dialogue in Dallas that Gary and Val didn't sleep together until after they were married at 17 and 15. I'm not that closely in with the culture of rural Tennessee and rural Texas of the early 1960s to know all the answers in regards to this, even though I do get the feeling that certain places had more flexible rules back then.

On Dallas, there was also Pam's marriage to Ed Haynes, across the border in Mexico, when she was 15. Was that legal in late 1960s Mexico (in Juarez)? A sober Digger found out, and got Pam to annul the marriage.

Also Lili Mae was supposdly only 14 when she was married off to a man old enough to be her father. Thinking about that makes me feel sorry for Lili Mae as her situation was no better than the child brides of today that are being married off in their teenage years because their parents has chosen for them to take a husband. I don't think arranged marriages like that are fair to the teenagers in question. :(
The interesting thing about Lilimae, so young when she married near middle aged Jeremiah, is that Lilimae came across in the flashbacks as by far the most domineering in the marriage, the most unreasonable and the most ambitious. Val was always close to her father, but had a complicated relationship with her mother. Val had mother issues that didn't get resolved until Season 3 of Knots Landing.

A 16-year-old Lucy on Dallas also came across as a sexual devourer of nervous men. I laughed when Pam said that her cousin Jimmy was like 5 compared to Lucy, when Lucy was hinting on chatting up Jimmy at the Barbecue. When you think of Lucy's upbringing, she has seen and heard all the political skullduggery being discussed in her house, has no parents living with her, and has endless time to to indulge in hedonism.

It's different if they do love each other and want to get married like Gary and Val. Still even then getting married before the age of 18 probably means dropping out of High School so in that sense I think it's better to get married later after you have finished school. Which brings me to another question, when did Val finish High School?
I think she'd already left high school before she met Gary, as Lilimae was always out chasing her singing dream, so Val had to work to make ends meet with jobs like diner waitressing. That's where she was at when she met Gary, and what she went back to after losing Gary and Lucy. When she got to know Lucy as a teenager, and she reconciled with Gary, she wanted to make better things with her life, for both her sake and Gary's sake.

Finally let's end this post with this cute cap. :)
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Do you recognize which scene it is from?
Not off the top of my head.
 

Karin Schill

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At some point she did divorce Ben in absentia so she wasn't committing bigamy when she remarried Gary.
You know I mixed up the plot with Dallas! :embarrassed:
In Dallas Miss Ellie had Jock declared legally dead and then she was free to get remarried to Clayton later on. I thought that Ben had also been declared dead. But you are right he wasn't, Val just divorced him on terms of abandonment and it was to be free to marry Danny.

Douglas Sheehan was going to leave after Season 7, but was talked into staying for another year. I think darkening Ben's character in Season 8, and giving him a dark past with Jean Hackney, was a big part of him agreeing to do that season. Sheehan's departure after Season 8 was completely unrelated to the Season 9 budget cuts which saw Constance McCashin and Julie Harris leave.
You are right. I think it's interesting that he wanted to leave the show while the others didn't. I guess due to the budget cuts that season it's easy to assume that he was also a part of the budget cuts when in fact it was his choice to leave. It's a shame they fired Constance McCashin and Julie Harris though since they brought so much to the show. :(

Ben, although he did bring something to the show too, I feel at that point he had more or less played out his part and after he left it would have been natural for Gary and Val to get reunited earlier.

I wonder why Douglas Sheehan wanted Ben to go darker?
Personally I think it ruined his character but maybe he was tired of playing a good guy.

I think she was studying for one of those equivalency diplomas - a GED, is it?
No clue what it's called. Maybe one of our American friends can have that cleared up for us?


Oh yes, Val loved Gary much more, but she did love the fact that Ben was solid and dependable. Gary, by contrast, was very complex and had a lot of weaknesses.
True and although we are talking about two grown men here. I think Ben acted more like a grown up than Gary who was a bit like a teenager in the sense that he had a need to rebell and for excitement. He was off racing cars and crashing them and doing reckless things. Like how he cheated with Abby although others like Richard warned him that it could cost him his marriage if he didn't watch out. So I think in some ways Ben was what Val needed at this point of her life. She needed a father to her children, someone who could be dependable and solid. So although she loved Gary and was happy that the twins were his, a part of her knew that Ben would have made a better father. So that was also a part of why she married him and chose him to be the father of her children, albeit he wasn't biologically.

Ironically though Abby had no problems at all with letting Gary become the father-figure to her children.

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Although she too scolded him at times when he was off racing cars and cheating with Jill Bennett.

Abby was annoyed too. She almost accepted it after a while, that Gary would run to Val when feeling insecure.
Yeah it bugged Abby and ironically she feared that she would lose Gary to Val since she was aware of the connection. I think that is also why the twins ended up being kidnappend. Because Abby feared Gary would leave her for Val if he found out tha the kids were his. Gary definitely loved both women, but the main difference was that he trusted Val whereas with Abby he had been close to divorce her for her betrayal.



I'm sure they had a few nights like that at the time, probably both hoping that they'd get back together, but Gary's relationship with Jill was complicating things a bit.
You know I don't think it was Gary's relationship with Jill that was the problem as much as Val's marriage to Ben. It seems to me like Gary wanted to get back together with Val at that point and even told Jill that he was leaving her for Val. It was when Jill went to Val and told her that the complications started. Because it changed things between them and although Val did love Gary and had no problem with seeking comfort in his arms she never asked him to leave Jill for her. So when he had it meant that Gary was suddenly free to be with Val and she was not ready to divorce Ben for him. So it seems to me that the main problem was that Val wasn't ready to take a chance on Gary again. She was afraid of what would happen if they couldn't make it work.

Maybe not as quickly as Mack and Karen, but Lilimae would have cottoned on to him before Val certainly, like Virginia did. Danny wasn't exactly the best at hiding his dark side.
Definitely. It amazes me how Val didn't listen when Gary told her how Danny had raped Amanda. The whole plot made Val look like a fool. It was like she was under Danny's spell so much that she didn't listen to Gary or to her kids when they told her they didn't like Danny. I don't think that fit with who Val was so I found that annoying. I also found it annoying how the twins and Virginia was at Val and Danny's wedding although the kids didn't want her to marry him but were excluded from their parents wedding a year or so later. :(


Danny made the mistake that so many others have made, thinking that Val is a vulnerable, soft touch, like she appears on the surface. In reality, get on her bad side, and she's like a dog with a bone. Even if they terrify her close to death and almost kill her, she will get tougher and strike back, as Jill found out. This is a big part of the reason as to why Gary loves her so much, that confidence, that stubborness, that organization, that ability to rebound from setbacks. For an insecure man like Gary who feels that he should be stronger, Val is the perfect fit.
I agree. :)

Then as for Danny he sure was a nuisance and yes his mistake was thinking that Val was a weak woman when she wasn't. Or maybe he enjoyed going after strong women and breaking them down?

I don't know. Either way he could never see her stabbing her coming or could she for that matter. I think it scared her that she was capable of harming another person.

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Of course all of this was done to drive Val back into Gary's arms as he was the one who picked up the pieces and comforted her after her marriage to Danny had fallen apart.

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I love this scene when Danny was on the outside stalking them and saw his wife kiss Gary. It served him right!

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I'm not sure. I think they could get married younger if there was a pregnancy involved, especially with the stigma of unmarried mothers in those days, but we know from the dialogue in Dallas that Gary and Val didn't sleep together until after they were married at 17 and 15. I'm not that closely in with the culture of rural Tennessee and rural Texas of the early 1960s to know all the answers in regards to this, even though I do get the feeling that certain places had more flexible rules back then.

On Dallas, there was also Pam's marriage to Ed Haynes, across the border in Mexico, when she was 15. Was that legal in late 1960s Mexico (in Juarez)? A sober Digger found out, and got Pam to annul the marriage.
All true. It was established on Dallas that Val didn't become pregnant with Lucy until after they had gotten married.

No clue if it was legal to get married at the age of 15 in Mexico in the 1960s. I guess the script writers never could imagine that we'd be here discussing the fine details of their plots this way like 40 years later. :D

The interesting thing about Lilimae, so young when she married near middle aged Jeremiah, is that Lilimae came across in the flashbacks as by far the most domineering in the marriage, the most unreasonable and the most ambitious. Val was always close to her father, but had a complicated relationship with her mother. Val had mother issues that didn't get resolved until Season 3 of Knots Landing.
Yes, I bet being abandoned by her mother as a child left her with similiar issues like Lucy had for being abandoned by Val. So since Val wanted Lucy's forgiveness it might also be easier for her to forgive Lilimae. Although the reason for the abandonment is completely different. Lilimae chose to leave Val whereas Lucy was taken from Val. But still having similar situations probably made it easier for Val to forgive Lilimae.

A 16-year-old Lucy on Dallas also came across as a sexual devourer of nervous men. I laughed when Pam said that her cousin Jimmy was like 5 compared to Lucy, when Lucy was hinting on chatting up Jimmy at the Barbecue.
Oh yeah that scene when Lucy tried to come on to Jimmy at the BBQ was hilarious. If memory serves me right I think Pam had told Jimmy not to go after Lucy so he acted like he didn't know what Lucy was talking about when she tried to come on to him thinking that it would make Lucy interested in him when all it managed to accomplish was that Lucy came to the conclusion that Jimmy didn't like girls and was probably gay, which he wasn't. So talk about that they'd gotten their wires crossed in terms of communications. :Clol:


I think she'd already left high school before she met Gary, as Lilimae was always out chasing her singing dream, so Val had to work to make ends meet with jobs like diner waitressing. That's where she was at when she met Gary, and what she went back to after losing Gary and Lucy. When she got to know Lucy as a teenager, and she reconciled with Gary, she wanted to make better things with her life, for both her sake and Gary's sake.
Good point. Val didn't drop out of High School because she got married young but because she had to find a way to support herself after her father died and her mother abandoned her. :( Lilimae really let Val down since ideally all children should have parents who can take care of them until they are adults. Yet Lilimae had never had that either since she was married off young so her parents had let her down too. So they were both victims in that sense.

Not off the top of my head.
Okay maybe these screen caps from the same scene will make it easier to remember...

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So where do you think this scene is from?

I think it's interesting how Abby and Val are almost dressed the same way in this scene... :)

She actually married Danny?

I must have blacked that out of my memory. :eek:
I can see why you've blocked that out of your mind considering that by the time they got married it was the start of the end. I think it was less than 7 episodes after they got married that Val wised up to who her new husband was and then stabbed him with the pair of scissors and after that they were both in agreement with that they should divorce and Gary comforted Val who temporarily moved in with him and the twins at the ranch.

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So I guess Danny did serve a purpose on the show although I wouldn't have minded if Gary and Val had gotten remarried in season 10 instead of her marrying Danny. But I guess the script writers went for more drama with the Jill and Danny characters being used as obstacles for them to over come before they could be reunited properly.

So which of the bad guys did you like the most, Jill or Danny?
 
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The whole plot made Val look like a fool. It was like she was under Danny's spell
That's exactly what it was like. They say love is blind but this went way beyond that.
So which of the bad guys did you like the most, Jill or Danny?
As a bad guy or as a character? I liked Jill at first, as I suppose we were supposed to. Come to think of it, she was probably the better bad guy as well. Danny seemed two-dimensional even as a villain.
 

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As a bad guy or as a character? .
That is an excellent question!
I think Danny was probably a more realistic bad guy than Jill was. I think it's more common with men that are abusive and controlling towards their wives in the way that Danny was than with women who goes completely psycho like Jill did.

In fact I think Jill probably had some sort of diagnosis but I am not sure which one. :think: Since her behavior the way she changed into another version of herself and committed the crime and then turned back into herself and tried to cover it up. That part actually sounds a bit schizofrenic. She also lied, she was disillusional, she thought Gary still loved her. She planned to hurt Gary when she cut his saddle. She called the school and said her husband had kids since before that she was enrolling. I think her behavior went beyond just being in denial about Gary dumping her. It was sick. So yeah I wonder which diagnosis the writers thought that Jill had?

If any...

Then as for the characters, when Jill first showed up she was mostly likable. Her only flaw was going after married men, first Mack and then Gary. But Abby started out that way too and she's one of my favorite characters. At first Jill also seemed like she was intelligent. Yes she and Peter lied about Sylvia being his mother to get access to Greg's money. They had a revenge motif going on but I always thought Peter was the driving force of that. Or could it be that Jill was the mastermind behind all that too?

But yeah at first she seemed to have a better idea of what was wrong or right. It was only after she lost Peter that she started to get progressively more unstable.

Danny started out likable too but his true colors were shown earlier than Jill's. So I think when it comes down to it I might have liked Jill more as a character. Even though I do think she was more evil than Danny and became in fact more unlikable than he was. Or what do you think, who was worst?

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See how nice Jill was, she even bought Gary that red pajamas for his birthday! :lol:
 

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Danny started out likable too but his true colors were shown earlier than Jill's. So I think when it comes down to it I might have liked Jill more as a character. Even though I do think she was more evil than Danny and became in fact more unlikable than he was. Or what do you think, who was worst?
Jill was the better written character in that she was allowed to develop slowly over a couple of seasons. Then when she did start to turn we were almost sympathetic at first because we understood her motivation, which made her final attack on Val all the more frightening.

Danny I never liked. At best he was another obstacle between Val and Gary, then his layers started to peel back fairly quickly.
See how nice Jill was, she even bought Gary that red pajamas for his birthday! :lol:
Somehow, Gary seems less than appreciative of the gift. ;)
 

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A friend got me the Rockford Files box set at Xmas as it featured some of the Dallas cast and who else appears

Why just little ol Valene in s1 looking pretty and the man I wanted to marry pre Bobby Ewing and Pat Duffy - mr Paul Micheal Glaser pre Starsky and Hutch









love BF x
 

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Thank you for those screen caps @Barbara Fan . :)

Which year is the Rockford Files from?
I have never heard of that TV-series before.

Joan is looking really young in those caps. :)
 

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I wish they'd repeat Knots. I loved that Danny storyline. But I absolutely loathe Abby. Could never see the attraction. Donna Mills has done some good made for tv movies though.
 

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I liked Danny at first but then he showed his true colors and I began to dislike him.

I love Abby though. Even if the character is a bitch. She is fun and she has her vulnerable moments too that make me like her. Donna Mills is also a great actress and she also had wonderful chemistry with Ted Shackelford. So I think the Gary, Val and Abby love triangle was an excellent idea. Besides it was Joan, Ted and Donna who went to David Jacobs and pitched the idea and he originally didn't like it. But I think it was the right way for the show to go as Gary and Val being apart gave us some great drama and made the show last longer. :)
 

Barbara Fan

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Thank you for those screen caps @Barbara Fan . :)

Which year is the Rockford Files from?
I have never heard of that TV-series before.

Joan is looking really young in those caps. :)
Think it ran from 1974- 80 and according to the box set ran for 5 seasons
Rockford aka james garner was a Private eye who lived in a caravan on the beach at Santa Monica and was always getting into scrapes, beaten up and chased by bad men in his car
he was a good looking guy, and he won the Purple heart when he was a marine in Korea
 

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a few more of Joan from S1









she should have left her pretty face untouched, she was lovely
Love BF x
 

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and a few of JVA




no curls here or chunky cardigan!





love BF xx
 

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Thank you for sharing those caps @Barbara Fan :)
She was lovely in deed and so very young. I guess from what you told me about the show this must have been filmed when Joan was around 30.

So how many episodes did Joan do of that show?

Also I love how she prepares so throughly for each new role she takes on. So I am wondering if you found her performance in that role any different to how she portrays Valene?
 
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