Mark Graisons pursuing a married woman

[Clubsoda]

You don’t accept gifts from another man if you’re not interested. The first time, maybe, just to be nice as you say, but the second time, absolutely not. If she valued her marriage, she did a pass poor job at pushing Mark away.

She didn't accept his gift though he came with champagne and glasses which she didn't even share with him.

This is an interesting discussion as I'm just not seeing the signs from Pam you two saw ha ha

 

[Billy Wall]

She didn't accept his gift though he came with champagne and glasses which she didn't even share with him.

This is an interesting discussion as I'm just not seeing the signs from Pam you two saw ha ha

She could have told her husband and I’m sure Bobby would have dealt with it or called the police and had Mark arrested for stalking.

Obviously, Pam didn’t do any of that. The vast majority of guys know when a woman is not interested and will stop a pursuit immediately.

 

[Mustard]

See it from Mark's point of view. He's very rich, used to getting most women that he wants, and finds Pam beautiful the moment he sees her in person. When he gets to know her further, he's completely smitten (which is rare for him), yet she's committed to Bobby. Mark is not really expecting to get anywhere with Pam but he's going to try anyway and see if he can win Pam over. Mark becomes an emotional rock for Pam, and eventually it develops into a romance as Pam's bridge back to Bobby appears burned. Pam could never quite shake off Bobby, and was going to turn down Mark's marriage proposal, but I think Mark's illness made her appreciate just how much Mark meant to her and she was devastated when he was gone, and obsessed with finding him when there were hints that Mark had faked his own death.

Pam may not have been deeply in love with Mark like she was with Bobby, but I think she preferred Mark from an emotional dependability standpoint. And in Season 9 DVD (the dream season), they were closer than ever in their relationship, and great together in my opinion.

 

[Toni]

I think there is a problem with the OP´s main question. It should read "Mark Graison pursuing a woman like Pam, who happens to be married". Come on, you straight men and (few) lesbians who may be "out" there: wouldn't you have done the same if you were in Mark´s place?

Migthy Aphrodite indeed!​

 

[Dr. Ellby's hair]

I’m currently on season 6. I place ALL of the blame on Pam. When Marc initially started pursuing her, she was separated from Bobby. Pam could have ended it anytime she wanted to but she didn’t. Hell, she went to France (of all places) with Marc. Plus, Pam used every excuse to stay be separated from Bobby. The Ewing Oil contest was just an excuse for her to leave.

This is true with Pam and in real life. If someone is getting in the way of a marriage, it’s because one of the two spouses (Pam) is allowing it to happen.

"JR: Climb down off your soapbox Honey.
What were you doing in the South of France with Mark, holding haaands?
PAM: Shut up J.R and stay out of my life.
JR: Who gave you the right to poke your nose in my life?
PAM: Just leave me alone.
JR: No. You started this. My sanctimonious little sister-in-law.
Where the hell were you when your husband needed you the most? Now.
You couldn't take the battle for Ewing Oil, could you? No.
You didn't approve.
So you left him high and dry and ran off to the South of France with your favorite stud for a long.
Luxurious roll in the hay to calm your little hurts.
Now.
Tell me.
Was Mark Graison the only one or did you try a few Frenchmen just because you were there?
PAM: SLAP!

https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=dallas&episode=s06e28

 

[Jon Ewing Jr.]

One thing that always bothered me about Pam during this stretch was the way she just walked out on Bobby less than a year after he stuck by her and loved her during her mental instability. I really thought Pam should have sucked it up and supported him, even if she didnt agree.

 

[Billy Wall]

One thing that always bothered me about Pam during this stretch was the way she just walked out on Bobby less than a year after he stuck by her and loved her during her mental instability. I really thought Pam should have sucked it up and supported him, even if she didnt agree.

I’m just beginning season 8 and I’ve noticed this about Pam. She wanted her cake and to eat it too. After she walked out on Bobby, she had the nerve to tell him that she thinks Jenna is bad for him. Bobby did rightfully tell her off.

Mark dies and now she acts like she wants Bobby back even though he’s with Jenna.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

You all have very valid complaints about Pam, especially during this part of Dallas when she was seeing Mark Graison and still married to Bobby.

In general I liked Pam very much but not so much in this era of Dallas. In general she was very flighty. It didn't take much to get her to run away from Bobby. He never ran from Pam but she left him at least 3 times! I didn't like the way she told him she was leaving either. I'm referring to the time she left in season 6. She told Bobby she needed to leave Southfork and Bobby, despite loving Southfork, said OK, where do you think we should move? She said to him "You don't understand. I want to leave but alone." Bobby asked "Without Christopher and me"? Then Pam very arrogantly and unfeelingly replied, "I'm taking Christopher but not you."

Think about that. This is the first she's mentioned it and she just matter of factly states "I'm taking Christopher." She said it as if the idea of Bobby keeping Christopher was so silly it didn't even merit a discussion. I found that part of Pam's personality very unattractive. Bobby had usually let Pam have her own way and this was no exception. Maybe letting her have her own way no matter how ridiculous her demands were was a mistake. It fostered an arrogant, selfish, spoiled attitude in which she always expected to get her way no matter what. Bobby himself had been spoiled by Jock. When you consider that and then look at how much he was willing to compromise with Pam and how little she was willing to compromise with Bobby in return, you see just how spoiled Pam was.

She felt entitled to go on a vacation to France with Mark Graison on his private jet while still married Bobby and told Bobby she didn't think there was anything about her going on that vacation that she should feel bad about or even have to explain. Where did she get that idea, and that type of attitude? Don't you think if Bobby had gone to France and took Jenna Wade with him while still married to Pam, that Pam would have thought it was a horrible thing for Bobby to do and that Pam would think Bobby had a lot of explaining to do when he and Jenna got back to Dallas?

Or imagine this: Suppose while Pam was still happy being married to Bobby, Bobby had told Pam that he needed to send some time away from her, that he was taking Christopher so that he'd have Christopher during the time he and Pam were separated and felt so entitled to do so that he didn't even believe it warranted a discussion; he just had to tell her he was taking Christopher and that was it! Do you think Pam would have handled that as well as Bobby handled what she did to him in season 6? I don't think so!

 

[Mustard]

One thing that always bothered me about Pam during this stretch was the way she just walked out on Bobby less than a year after he stuck by her and loved her during her mental instability. I really thought Pam should have sucked it up and supported him, even if she didnt agree.

Pam and Miss Ellie were both warning them of the danger ahead for the family, when Miss Ellie was trying to break Jock's will. They weren't interested, except in keeping Jock's will in place. Not only were Miss Ellie and Pam correct, but the consequences ended up being far, far worse than even they had feared.

She felt entitled to go on a vacation to France with Mark Graison on his private jet while still married Bobby and told Bobby she didn't think there was anything about her going on that vacation that she should feel bad about or even have to explain. Where did she get that idea, and that type of attitude? Don't you think if Bobby had gone to France and took Jenna Wade with him while still married to Pam, that Pam would have thought it was a horrible thing for Bobby to do and that Pam would think Bobby had a lot of explaining to do when he and Jenna got back to Dallas?

In Season 3 DVD, Pam got on a plane and left Bobby in Dallas with Jenna Wade, whom he almost did sleep with.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

In Season 3 DVD, Pam got on a plane and left Bobby in Dallas with Jenna Wade, whom he almost did sleep with.

But "almost" is the key word there, isn't it?

 

[Top Jimmy]

Pam was definitely wrong in traveling to France with Mark. JR and Bobby had every right to call her out on that. Pam's main character flaws were her indecisiveness and sometimes selfishness (although many of the characters could be described as selfish in different ways). She was wrong to automatically assume that it was alright to take Christopher with her when she left Bobby. Bobby could be selfish too. One instance is when he arbitrarily decides that he and Pam must leave Southfork and move out of state after JR shuts down Ewing 23 and cheats Cliff out of his rightful profits. He doesn't even ask Pam her opinion on the matter. I also think he was wrong when he chastised Pam and told her to grow up after she left Southfork after JR framed Cliff for the murder of Julie Grey. I could understand her needing some space after that. Who would want to stay in the same house with someone who tried to frame their brother for murder?

 

[Toni]

But "almost" is the key word there, isn't it?

​

I think the key word was that he would have slept with her but it was Jenna who said no because she wanted more. But in true skank fashion it was her who tempted him in her two first incarnations...About Pam being "flighty", well, I´d rather have that than seeing her arranging flowers until the end of "Dallas" days...

​

Pam was one of the most appealing though flawed soap characters of that era and that is something. I´d never judge a fictional character as a real person and that is what I see here very often. Mark was not a real person, he was the plot device they needed to keep the Bobby-Pam couple apart for a couple of years. Besides, upon VP, that happened because she had told the producers she´d leave at the end of OR Season 7 and the writers began to paved the way for that by making the "golden couple" apart.

Ironically, those years apart were the ones that audiences (especially us) liked in a special way because their interaction then became a constant reminder of how much they still loved each other. And both actors excelled at playing that, by the way...Of course, we all know that Victoria eventually stayed two more years, maybe because Bobby´s death gave her new layers of her role to play, though his resurrection turned her into his "asset" once again, and Victoria (just like most of us) didn´t like the new whining, lovey-dovey, passive Pam, so she hit the road and well, we know what happened to that Barnes woman...

PS: Oh and I never believed that Pam left Bobby because of the fight for Ewing Oil. It was because her mother died so soon and while trying to defeat J.R. In a way, she left to remain emotionally stable after such a big loss, it was a matter of survival. Pam said to Bobby very clearly that she "needed time to think". Not "You love the company more than me so I´ll leave with Ugly Baby". I found that season extremely complex and adult by prime time standards and it still stands out like that for me.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

About Pam being "flighty", well, I´d rather have that than seeing her arranging flowers until the end of "Dallas" days...

Why would those be the only two choices?

I´d never judge a fictional character as a real person

I would. That's the standard they strive for. If the characters are believable enough that the audience believes they could be real people, that means the actors and writers are doing their jobs well. If the characters seem phony, who is going to care about them?

Pam said to Bobby very clearly that she "needed time to think". Not "You love the company more than me so I´ll leave with Ugly Baby".

Insulting a baby.... Classy!

 

[Toni]

Insulting a baby.... Classy!

Blame Mr. Wogan for that, not moi!!

 

[Toni]

I would. That's the standard they strive for. If the characters are believable enough that the audience believes they could be real people, that means the actors and writers are doing their jobs well. If the characters seem phony, who is going to care about them?

There´s a difference between being "believable" and being "realistic". Now the writers aim to be the latter (but many times they come through as ridiculously pretentious) but the big networks still seem to prefer the former, because it leads to long-running shows that become profitable products. The cable channels are striving for making the difference but not always successfully ("House of Cards" turned out to be a big mess after the first season but enjoyable enough IMO). Epic shows like "GoT" not even try to be realistic because they are fantasies set in a fictional world, but audiences don´t really care about that and love it. I think that, at the end of the day, what matters is if the viewers feel they are being respected by the storytellers or not.

I felt I was for 8 long years until Bobby appeared in the shower, but not after that. And I wasn´t watching "Dallas" for being realistic but for the emotions and intrigue and relationships that were so far from my daily life. And Eric Farlow was a super-sweet baby, by the way. Actually I preferred him to Joshua Harris, who really was an actor and could be nice too (when he wasn´t whining like Mum).

Please the real Christopher stand up!​

 

[Kenny Coyote]

There´s a difference between being "believable" and being "realistic". Now the writers aim to be the latter (but many times they come through as ridiculously pretentious) but the big networks still seem to prefer the former, because it leads to long-running shows that become profitable products. The cable channels are striving for making the difference but not always successfully ("House of Cards" turned out to be a big mess after the first season but enjoyable enough IMO). Epic shows like "GoT" not even try to be realistic because they are fantasies set in a fictional world, but audiences don´t really care about that and love it. I think that, at the end of the day, what matters is if the viewers feel they are being respected by the storytellers or not.

I felt I was for 8 long years until Bobby appeared in the shower, but not after that. And I wasn´t watching "Dallas" for being realistic but for the emotions and intrigue and relationships that were so far from my daily life. And Eric Farlow was a super-sweet baby, by the way. Actually I preferred him to Joshua Harris, who really was an actor and could be nice too (when he wasn´t whining like Mum).

View attachment 15072

Please the real Christopher stand up!​

Interesting post! Which do you place more value on, being believable or realistic? I'm not sure in what sense you mean "realistic." I would think that making the character realistic is the writer's job and making the character believable is the actor's job. Is that right?

 

[Kenny Coyote]

Ironically, those years apart were the ones that audiences (especially us) liked in a special way because their interaction then became a constant reminder of how much they still loved each other. And both actors excelled at playing that, by the way...Of course, we all know that Victoria eventually stayed two more years, maybe because Bobby´s death gave her new layers of her role to play, though his resurrection turned her into his "asset" once again, and Victoria (just like most of us) didn´t like the new whining, lovey-dovey, passive Pam, so she hit the road and well, we know what happened to that Barnes woman...

​

I forgot to address something I wanted to from your post.

Regarding "...his resurrection turned her into his "asset" once again.." Well as opposed to a liability that's good, right? I didn't notice the "passive' part but I did see the "whining." A whiner is a liability in a marriage or at the least it's an undesirable trait. Bobby was stubborn and spoiled about always getting his way because Jock spoiled him when he was growing up. So when Bobby didn't get his way, as in the closing of the field Cliff had a share in, Bobby exploded all out of proportion to what was reasonable. He was smart enough to understand that Jock wouldn't want to be partners in a field with a man who had been constantly meddling in Ewing Oil's business and abusing his power in the OLM to shut down every Ewing Oil field! Why in the hell would Jock want to be partners with such a man? Why would Jock want to be partners with a man who tried so hard to convict him of a murder he didn't commit - the murder Digger committed. Bobby should have been bright enough to understand that but he was so spoiled and stubborn that since he opened the field, he felt personally insulted when it was then closed. He was unable to see things from Jock's point of view - Bobby had no empathy for Jock. Bobby only saw things the way they directly affected him and didn't take into account the way things affected other family members - very typical of a spoiled child.

That was a child-like mentality on Bobby's part. Bobby's child-like mentality was one of the things Pam put up with while Bobby out up with her near obsession with her brother and her refusal to be able to look at Cliff even somewhat objectively. She refused to believe Cliff would do anything immoral such as knowingly hurt her marriage like he did when he asked her for money and then he used that money to hurt Bobby and Ewing Oil. Cliff didn't care if he caused a huge argument between Pam and Bobby but she refused to see it.

"Lovey-dovey" is good! Again that's an asset in a marriage, whereas a spouse with a lack of love would be a liability. Dallas had a dysfunctional marriage with JR and Sue Ellen. I didn;t like seeing Bobby and Pam's marriage also fall apart. It was too much negativity. There had to be at least one son of Jock and Ellie who had a successful marriage - something to give the audience hope instead of making every marriage so bleak!

I heard a different story as to why Victoria left. What I heard the reason as had nothing to do with whether she liked the direction of the character or not, although as far as I know, she did like the direction of the character because it finished their "Romeo and Juliet" story in that they ended up together again - true love prevailed in the end.

What I heard the reason was for her leaving, and the only reason, is that she wanted to attempt to become a movie star. In Hollywood, that becomes harder for a woman after a certain age. It's not fair but it's how things are. men can be movie stars at older ages than women, on average. So, Victoria was going to leave Dallas, no matter what was going on with her character, because she wanted to try to become a movie star while she was still young enough that she would still have a good chance to become one. Did you ever hear that story as to the reason why Victoria left?

 

[Toni]

I forgot to address something I wanted to from your post.

Regarding "...his resurrection turned her into his "asset" once again.." Well as opposed to a liability that's good, right? I didn't notice the "passive' part but I did see the "whining." A whiner is a liability in a marriage or at the least it's an undesirable trait. Bobby was stubborn and spoiled about always getting his way because Jock spoiled him when he was growing up. So when Bobby didn't get his way, as in the closing of the field Cliff had a share in, Bobby exploded all out of proportion to what was reasonable. He was smart enough to understand that Jock wouldn't want to be partners in a field with a man who had been constantly meddling in Ewing Oil's business and abusing his power in the OLM to shut down every Ewing Oil field! Why in the hell would Jock want to be partners with such a man? Why would Jock want to be partners with a man who tried so hard to convict him of a murder he didn't commit - the murder Digger committed. Bobby should have been bright enough to understand that but he was so spoiled and stubborn that since he opened the field, he felt personally insulted when it was then closed. He was unable to see things from Jock's point of view - Bobby had no empathy for Jock. Bobby only saw things the way they directly affected him and didn't take into account the way things affected other family members - very typical of a spoiled child.

That was a child-like mentality on Bobby's part. Bobby's child-like mentality was one of the things Pam put up with while Bobby out up with her near obsession with her brother and her refusal to be able to look at Cliff even somewhat objectively. She refused to believe Cliff would do anything immoral such as knowingly hurt her marriage like he did when he asked her for money and then he used that money to hurt Bobby and Ewing Oil. Cliff didn't care if he caused a huge argument between Pam and Bobby but she refused to see it.

"Lovey-dovey" is good! Again that's an asset in a marriage, whereas a spouse with a lack of love would be a liability. Dallas had a dysfunctional marriage with JR and Sue Ellen. I didn;t like seeing Bobby and Pam's marriage also fall apart. It was too much negativity. There had to be at least one son of Jock and Ellie who had a successful marriage - something to give the audience hope instead of making every marriage so bleak!

I heard a different story as to why Victoria left. What I heard the reason as had nothing to do with whether she liked the direction of the character or not, although as far as I know, she did like the direction of the character because it finished their "Romeo and Juliet" story in that they ended up together again - true love prevailed in the end.

What I heard the reason was for her leaving, and the only reason, is that she wanted to attempt to become a movie star. In Hollywood, that becomes harder for a woman after a certain age. It's not fair but it's how things are. men can be movie stars at older ages than women, on average. So, Victoria was going to leave Dallas, no matter what was going on with her character, because she wanted to try to become a movie star while she was still young enough that she would still have a good chance to become one. Did you ever hear that story as to the reason why Victoria left?

There will always 100 different versions to all things "Dallas", especially re Victoria...When she left, she was already working on a few scripts to produce and/or star in, all of them for TV. I´m sure she wasn´t content with her character because she told that in a lot of interviews, including those published in Ultimate Dallas and Dallas Fanzine. She said that all she had left to do as Pam was "becoming Mother Teresa", in her own words. She loved and cherished the character but she had enough of it by her last season.

Anyway, we´re talking about the infamous soap producers of the 80´s, and there´s always been an alternate story about why a star left a show. There´s the version that, in order to be let go, she asked the bosses to get paid as much as Larry Hagman, but didn´t get it (maybe because she knew they wouldn't?). I´m also sure that VP was already with her "Principal Secret" in mind so she had her hands full so to say. And also writing work-out books...and being married to her millionaire plastic surgeon (no joke here please...). Whatever the "truth" is (and I myself don´t need to know that "mystical" truth), maybe it´s a combo of all things mentioned above...Anyway, she never returned to "Dallas" and even stopped watching it after her departure.

About being believable and realistic, I think it depends on all elements involved, but very especially on the producers. In the supersoaps´ case, it´s obvious that the Lorimar shows tended to be a bit more "realistic" because they filmed often in real exteriors, and they hired actors trained and experienced in theater and movies (even "Falcon Crest", which probably was the least "realistic" of them). The Spelling productions had the vicious habit of using good actors and wooden younger people (not all, but most of them).

I think the problem could be handled when the producers got along with everybody. This happened on "Dallas" right after Leonard Katzman and the Duffster left. Then the Dream Season began to "dynastify" everything and Larry got pissed off. As we know, it never really recovered from that despite Katzman and Duffy´s return. "Knots Landing" always was a different beast because the ensemble cast was consistently solid and capable to save some repetitive scripts. But when Jacobs left and the new producers came, along with the production cuts that had Harris and McCashin fired, the show resented that too in the next years. Acting kept being great but plots were less believable than usual, in general.

What seemed to happen with "Falcon Crest" is different. For a start, it never aspired to be as "believable" as the other Lorimar soaps and featured more violence, grittiness and gothic atmospheres than the other two. But I think we all here also agree that whatever the first three years had, the rest of the show lacked. And again, this had to do with the producing team, fired after Season 3. There were revolving doors in the next years, and soon the show lost any chance to be qualified as "realistic" and much less, "believable". But it was as fun as hell, and in a sense, no other soap had such an ability to deliver constantly suspenseful cliffhangers, even every week, and all this up to the boring Season 8, when the show was sentenced to death and seemed to be plugged to a breathing machine, like Angela the next year...

I´ll let others speak more extensively about realism and believability on the Spelling soaps, which I have watched but not adored, as many of you must know. However, Miss Piggy is a big fan, and even re-enacts the Alexis dialogues when she is in the bathroom. I think that even once she re-enacted the Ritas catfight!!

 

[Kenny Coyote]

There will always 100 different versions to all things "Dallas", especially re Victoria...When she left, she was already working on a few scripts to produce and/or star in, all of them for TV. I´m sure she wasn´t content with her character because she told that in a lot of interviews, including those published in Ultimate Dallas and Dallas Fanzine. She said that all she had left to do as Pam was "becoming Mother Teresa", in her own words. She loved and cherished the character but she had enough of it by her last season.

Anyway, we´re talking about the infamous soap producers of the 80´s, and there´s always been an alternate story about why a star left a show. There´s the version that, in order to be let go, she asked the bosses to get paid as much as Larry Hagman, but didn´t get it (maybe because she knew they wouldn't?). I´m also sure that VP was already with her "Principal Secret" in mind so she had her hands full so to say. And also writing work-out books...and being married to her millionaire plastic surgeon (no joke here please...). Whatever the "truth" is (and I myself don´t need to know that "mystical" truth), maybe it´s a combo of all things mentioned above...Anyway, she never returned to "Dallas" and even stopped watching it after her departure.

About being believable and realistic, I think it depends on all elements involved, but very especially on the producers. In the supersoaps´ case, it´s obvious that the Lorimar shows tended to be a bit more "realistic" because they filmed often in real exteriors, and they hired actors trained and experienced in theater and movies (even "Falcon Crest", which probably was the least "realistic" of them). The Spelling productions had the vicious habit of using good actors and wooden younger people (not all, but most of them).

I think the problem could be handled when the producers got along with everybody. This happened on "Dallas" right after Leonard Katzman and the Duffster left. Then the Dream Season began to "dynastify" everything and Larry got pissed off. As we know, it never really recovered from that despite Katzman and Duffy´s return. "Knots Landing" always was a different beast because the ensemble cast was consistently solid and capable to save some repetitive scripts. But when Jacobs left and the new producers came, along with the production cuts that had Harris and McCashin fired, the show resented that too in the next years. Acting kept being great but plots were less believable than usual, in general.

What seemed to happen with "Falcon Crest" is different. For a start, it never aspired to be as "believable" as the other Lorimar soaps and featured more violence, grittiness and gothic atmospheres than the other two. But I think we all here also agree that whatever the first three years had, the rest of the show lacked. And again, this had to do with the producing team, fired after Season 3. There were revolving doors in the next years, and soon the show lost any chance to be qualified as "realistic" and much less, "believable". But it was as fun as hell, and in a sense, no other soap had such an ability to deliver constantly suspenseful cliffhangers, even every week, and all this up to the boring Season 8, when the show was sentenced to death and seemed to be plugged to a breathing machine, like Angela the next year...

I´ll let others speak more extensively about realism and believability on the Spelling soaps, which I have watched but not adored, as many of you must know. However, Miss Piggy is a big fan, and even re-enacts the Alexis dialogues when she is in the bathroom. I think that even once she re-enacted the Ritas catfight!!

Thanks Toni!

I didn't watch Falcon Crest or the other nighttime soaps of the 80s though. I was wondering if you could give one or two examples from Dallas where a character is realistic but not believable, and then give one or two examples from Dallas where a character is believable but not realistic. Several examples of each would be better, but whatever you have time for. I just find this subject very interesting.