Times when you agreed with the villain.....

Willie Oleson

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If Bobby had married Katherine then I think she'd bend over backwards to be the perfect wife and make that marriage work - but that itself is a recipe for disaster.
I assume it would have ended in a Gary & Jill type of scenario (and Jenna would warn her about the first Mrs Ewing).
 

Willie Oleson

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I understand the symbolism behind it, she wanted Clayton, her husband, to feel like Southfork was was his home as much as hers,
Maybe it was more important for him to understand that it wasn't Jock's home anymore. A second marriage is not less important than a first marriage.
 

TJames03

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Agreed - Wentworth was Katherine’s. As far as I could tell Rebecca added nothing of her own to running any of it. I could see some money but not sharing it as she did. Katherine was robbed.
Agreed. As much as I liked Pam, she and Cliff deserved Katherine’s wrath....
 

Snarky's Ghost

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If Bobby had married Katherine then I think she'd bend over backwards to be the perfect wife and make that marriage work - but that itself is a recipe for disaster.
I assume it would have ended in a Gary & Jill type of scenario (and Jenna would warn her about the first Mrs Ewing).
'Cause she be crazee.
 

stevew

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Don't agree with all of this, but then I know from your fanfiction how you basically believe Dallas continuations should be all about following J.R.'s legacy. I've already said I agree that she would not have given half to Clayton, but in-story, it makes perfect sense why Miss Ellie would have left Southfork to Bobby. Yes, the Southworth tradition may have said that the ranch is passed on to the first born child, and Ellie only got it because it was believed that Garrison was dead, and that's why she considered giving it all to him when he turned up alive, but in this case she just couldn't trust it to J.R, because she couldn't trust that he would abide by Aaron's wishes that there never be any oil drilling on Southfork. And she was right! J.R. totally would have drilled Section 40 the first chance he got. So in this case, the first born had to get passed over, and since Gary wasn't living at Southfork, Bobby was the natural choice. And a property like that, which is both a business (the ranch itself) and a residence (the mansion) needs a sole owner (outside of a married couple), it's too much trouble to try to split it equally between siblings, because of the potential for conflict down the road.
As you say you know I disagree. Generally speaking these things are usually divided up. First the gift tax to just give it to Bobby would have been absurd to pay. Second the best way to protect the land is not to give it to one person but to set it up where the land and mineral rights are separated and protected by some sort of public trust - as Bobby tried to do in Dallas TNT - that certainly didn’t require him giving up the house as they portrayed. But the house and business are two other pieces. I could see her giving the business to Bobby or even splitting it with Bobby and Gary once the land was protected, but in order to stay true to her words and respecting her father she would have to have given the house to JR or at least John Ross and bypassed JR.

As for any continuation following JR’s legacy and I’d say the mess he left behind, that’s because JR was Dallas. Yes it was a family cast and they all were important but JR is what made Dallas the international hit - to continue Dallas without playing off of that made no more sense than having Dallas about the Ramos family - and it just didn’t work.
 

stevew

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Maybe it was more important for him to understand that it wasn't Jock's home anymore. A second marriage is not less important than a first marriage.
And maybe there was language that required him to leave it to Miss Ellie. Who knows the particulars of the paperwork.
 

Jabari Lamar

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As for any continuation following JR’s legacy and I’d say the mess he left behind, that’s because JR was Dallas. Yes it was a family cast and they all were important but JR is what made Dallas the international hit - to continue Dallas without playing off of that made no more sense than having Dallas about the Ramos family - and it just didn’t work.
While I'm fine with a continuation carrying on his legacy, I just don't see it needing to be done at the expense of Bobby and his legacy (or Ray or Lucy). I think the Ewing family had many potential storylines to go with other family members and their heirs to continue with the series. For Bobby in particular, I think Christopher had much untapped potential, as I agree with David Jacobs that Christopher should be the "bad" Ewing that attempts to follow in J.R.'s footsteps (in order to prove to everyone that he's a "real" Ewing) and we see the conflict that that creates with not only John Ross (who should be going out of his way to be the opposite of J.R.) but also his own father. And then we eventually bring in Lucas which ignites Christopher's insecurities about his place in the family.
 

stevew

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Don't agree with all of this, but then I know from your fanfiction how you basically believe Dallas continuations should be all about following J.R.'s legacy. I've already said I agree that she would not have given half to Clayton, but in-story, it makes perfect sense why Miss Ellie would have left Southfork to Bobby. Yes, the Southworth tradition may have said that the ranch is passed on to the first born child, and Ellie only got it because it was believed that Garrison was dead, and that's why she considered giving it all to him when he turned up alive, but in this case she just couldn't trust it to J.R, because she couldn't trust that he would abide by Aaron's wishes that there never be any oil drilling on Southfork. And she was right! J.R. totally would have drilled Section 40 the first chance he got. So in this case, the first born had to get passed over, and since Gary wasn't living at Southfork, Bobby was the natural choice. And a property like that, which is both a business (the ranch itself) and a residence (the mansion) needs a sole owner (outside of a married couple), it's too much trouble to try to split it equally between siblings, because of the potential for conflict down the road.
I’d also say she was wrong for not drilling in section 40. There are lots of ways to protect the land in drilling and keeping that money there for no reason - even if she gave it to a worthwhile cause - is morally questionable imo. There are causes that could use that money, even if it was for alternative energy resources. Just to leave it in the ground and watch people drill off shore instead and call it morally superior by protecting the land and thinking just because you have it Bobby it’s safe for all time is naive.
 

Jabari Lamar

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And maybe there was language that required him to leave it to Miss Ellie. Who knows the particulars of the paperwork.
Yes, that's what I said in my earlier comment, if there'd been a requirement like that, at least it would make a bit more sense in-story. But there was no mention of that, in fact when J.R. made a snarky comment about Dusty possibly inheriting Southfork, neither Clayton nor Miss Ellie denied that that would be a possibility.
 

stevew

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While I'm fine with a continuation carrying on his legacy, I just don't see it needing to be done at the expense of Bobby and his legacy (or Ray or Lucy). I think the Ewing family had many potential storylines to go with other family members and their heirs to continue with the series. For Bobby in particular, I think Christopher had much untapped potential, as I agree with David Jacobs that Christopher should be the "bad" Ewing that attempts to follow in J.R.'s footsteps (in order to prove to everyone that he's a "real" Ewing) and we see the conflict that that creates with not only John Ross (who should be going out of his way to be the opposite of J.R.) but also his own father. And then we eventually bring in Lucas which ignites Christopher's insecurities about his place in the family.
I’m not disagreeing with the roles of others - unfortunately none of it was explored. I’ve written fan fictions which include Lucas and Christoper and even threads with Lucy and fever all view Christopher more in the JR role and John Ross more in the Jock role. But, I don’t see the value in spending much time on Ray or Bobby - to me they provide the support for the next generation and with such few episodes I’m not sure there would be time to explore much, but I do see your point and have agreed with it often in the past. My point is JR and his legacy should have been at the center not the failure it turned out.
 

Jabari Lamar

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I’d also say she was wrong for not drilling in section 40. There are lots of ways to protect the land in drilling and keeping that money there for no reason - even if she gave it to a worthwhile cause - is morally questionable imo. There are causes that could use that money, even if it was for alternative energy resources. Just to leave it in the ground and watch people drill off shore instead and call it morally superior by protecting the land and thinking just because you have it Bobby it’s safe for all time is naive.
I raised that issue at the time, too. I recall some Dallas review blog that was covering the TNT show time had some oil expert who made some calculation that the 2 billion barrels of oil that was estimated to exist under Southfork would have had real world value of about $200 billion. And he said the same thing, that wiith that much money at stake, it was almost immoral not to drill it. Even if they didn't personally need the money for their own lives, there are tons of good deeds that could be done with it. Just the help that would be in reducing America's dependence on foreign oil would be a great thing.

And of course they did eventually come up with the compromise of slant-drilling, although the Ewings still seemed to always be in situations where they needed money on the TNT show, so that didn't make sense.

Still, with all due respect (and I mean that, as I can tell you're a major Dallas fan), you're being a tad hyprocritical there. You can't on the one hand criticise Miss Ellie for not passing on Southfork to J.R. because that would have been Daddy Southworth's wishes, but then on the other hand say that they should have ignored Daddy Southwork's wishes about there never being any drilling on Southfork.
 
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stevew

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I raised that issue at the time, too. I recall some Dallas review blog that was covering the TNT show time had some oil expert who made some calculation that the 2 billion barrels of oil that was estimated to exist under Southfork would have had real world value of about $200 billion. And he said the same thing, that wiith that much money at stake, it was almost immoral not to drill it. Even if they didn't personally need the money for their own lives, there are tons of good deeds that could be done with it. Just the help that would be in reducing America's dependence on foreign oil would be a great thing.

And of course they did eventually come up with the compromise of slant-drilling, although the Ewings still seemed to always be in situations where they needed money on the TNT show, so that didn't make sense.

Still, with all due respect (and I mean that, as I can tell you're a major Dallas fan), you're being a tad hyprocritical there. You can't on the one hand criticise Miss Ellie for not passing on Southfork to J.R. because that would have been Daddy Southworth's wishes, but then on the other hand say that they should have ignored Daddy Southwork's wishes about there never being any drilling on Southfork.
I take it as respectful but disagree with me being the hypocrite - that’s Miss Ellie. She can’t say she’s keeping billions of dollars in oil locked away to honor her daddy and then dishonor him by giving Southfork to someone but the oldest son (or at least that son’s son and certainly not a second husband who might leave it anybody). I’m also not saying she shouldn’t protect the land - unless they’re idiots at oil the slant drilling isn’t last thought. Also Miss Ellie would be smart enough to know it’s not safe even with Bobby - no matter what he dies one day. The only way to protect it is through its deed and dividing up the pieces - which is done all the time by people who own large chunks of land. If she wanted to truly protect it that was her only option unless she’s not very smart nor are her legal advisors.
 

Jabari Lamar

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I take it as respectful but disagree with me being the hypocrite - that’s Miss Ellie. She can’t say she’s keeping billions of dollars in oil locked away to honor her daddy and then dishonor him by giving Southfork to someone but the oldest son (or at least that son’s son and certainly not a second husband who might leave it anybody).
Well, as I've said, I agree about the Clayton thing. That was just wrong, and ultimately pointless as a story. I mean, really, what ever came of it? J.R. threw and fit a moved out (like he was some kind of 10 year old running away from home, as opposed to a grown man pushing 60), but then moved back a few episodes later. And then when Ellie and Clayton left, they both turned over full ownership to Bobby. So nothing really changed. There might have actually been decent storyline if they'd had Dusty inheriting half of the ranch at some point, and then having J.R. fight him to get it. But, yes, that particular move could be seen as dishonoring her father.

I still don't agree with the other apart, as I don't think it was super-important to Aaron that Southfork had to always be passed down to the firstborn, it's just what he intended. I think keeping it in the family was the important thing, so I can't see why he'd have a problem with his daughter giving it to her youngest son, especially for her stated reason.

I’m also not saying she shouldn’t protect the land - unless they’re idiots at oil the slant drilling isn’t last thought.
It was definitely an...awfully convienient compromise that suddenly came out of nowhere. From what I've read, slant drilling as a technique has existed since the 1920's, if that was really an acceptable way to get all that oil without violating Daddy Southworth's wishes, surely they would have done it long before the TNT show came along (like it never came up when they were about to lose Ewing Oil and Southfork to the bank?).

But it was a fictional show, a lot of their storylines involving the business didn't always quite make sense.

Also Miss Ellie would be smart enough to know it’s not safe even with Bobby - no matter what he dies one day.
Yes, that's true. As it was evidence in Jock's Will where he declared that Ewing Oil "must never be own by anyone except a Ewing". Clearly, despite his desire, that didn't work. And thus it's the same with Southfork. But Miss Ellie had to leave it to someone, and she knew she could trust Bobby to continue to take care of it like she would, and then just hope that Bobby would raise a child that he could trust to do the same and leave it to them. And so on. And while you could leave percentages of ownership to multiple heirs, I can I see the wisdom in your strategy about that, I think the feeling is that for a property like that you need one person who can ultimately make final decisions. With too many people you risk not being able to get anything done because everyone has different opinions.
 
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stevew

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Well, as I've said, I agree about the Clayton thing. That was just wrong, and ultimately pointless as a story. I mean, really, what ever came of it? J.R. threw and fit a moved out (like he was some kind of 10 year old running away from home, as opposed to a grown man pushing 60), but then moved back a few episodes later. And then when Ellie and Clayton left, they both turned over full ownership to Bobby. So nothing really changed. There might have actually been decent storyline if they'd had Dusty inheriting half of the ranch at some point, and then having J.R. fight him to get it. But, yes, that particular move could be seen as dishonoring her father.

I still don't agree with the other apart, as I don't think it was super-important to Aaron that Southfork had to always be passed down to the firstborn, it's just what he intended. I think keeping it in the family was the important thing, so I can't see why he'd have a problem with his daughter giving it to her youngest son, especially for her stated reason.



It was definitely an...awfully convienient compromise that suddenly came out of nowhere. From what I've read, slant drilling as a technique has existed since the 1920's, if that was really an acceptable way to get all that oil without violating Daddy Southworth's wishes, surely they would have done it long before the TNT show came along (like it never came up when they were about to lose Ewing Oil and Southfork to the bank?).

But it was a fictional show, a lot of their storylines involving the business didn't always quite make sense.



Yes, that's true. As it was evidence in Jock's Will where he declared that Ewing Oil "must never be own by anyone except a Ewing". Clearly, despite his desire, that didn't work. And thus it's the same with Southfork. But Miss Ellie had to leave it to someone, and she knew she could trust Bobby to continue to take care of it like she would, and then just hope that Bobby would raise a child that he could trust to do the same and leave it to them. And so on. And while you could leave percentages of ownership to multiple heirs, I can I see the wisdom in your strategy about that, I think the feeling is that for a property like that you need one person who can ultimately make final decisions. With two many people you risk not being able to get anything done because everyone has different opinions.
If it was just to stay in the family, why did Ellie feel the need to give it to her brother when he returned, even to the point of fighting with Jock?

Also just giving it to Bobby like that was lame writing. With gift taxes and the value of the oil underneath it would have broke him financially.

It also cut out John Ross and Miss Ellie was smart enough to see that coming. She talked about future fights between the boys and had to know she was setting up one right there.

Right - the idea came from the movie Giant and belong to another time. Why TNT would even continue it in a new century was again sloppy writing.

I think your confusing the breaking up the whole with sharing percentages of the whole. I mean actually breaking up Southfork. 1st the oil rights have to be removed from the land. That’s way too much value and the taxes would kill them if they’re not going to drill. Second the land needed to be in a charitable trust with stipulations preventing drilling on the land and cash to maintain it as a preserve. The land and the cattle business are also separate pieces. It can be arranged to use the land for the cattle business for say $1 a year but the two needed to be separated if you’re going to protect the land. Just wishing Bobby and his heirs do a good job is naive and financially disastrous. Finally the house and the land right around it are another piece. Giving JR the house, Bobby the business and a charitable foundation the land is the only thing that made sense - unless you want your family to keep fighting. Which was certainly what Jock called for.
 

Jabari Lamar

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If it was just to stay in the family, why did Ellie feel the need to give it to her brother when he returned, even to the point of fighting with Jock?
Well she knew he was planning to give it to Garrison, because he was his firstborn, and only changed his mind to give it to his next child after Garrison was presumed dead. So Ellie felt guilty, thinking she only got the ranch under false pretensis. Again, that's doesn't necessarily mean that Aaron wanted it to always be passed down to a "firstborn" child. If Garrison had inherited it and had multiple children I don't think he would have been any more obligated to pass the ranch on to his first born, if he had reason to believe that his firstborn would take care of it properly, just because that's how he got it,

A
lso just giving it to Bobby like that was lame writing. With gift taxes and the value of the oil underneath it would have broke him financially.
As I said, a lot of the writing was lame when it came to the business stuff on Dallas. That includes some of best storylines on Dallas, like the contest in Jock's Will, or how J.R. got the Ewing Oil assests back from Wendell, or Sue Ellen literally buying an entire movie studio, just to make one movie that she never planned to release. But that's because the writers weren't businessmen, and neither were most of us viewers. We weren't watching a documentary on the oil business, we were watching a Soap Opera. So there was often some "dramatic license."
 

stevew

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Well she knew he was planning to give it to Garrison, because he was his firstborn, and only changed his mind to give it to his next child after Garrison was presumed dead. So Ellie felt guilty, thinking she only got the ranch under false pretensis. Again, that's doesn't necessarily mean that Aaron wanted it to always be passed down to a "firstborn" child. If Garrison had inherited it and had multiple children I don't think he would have been any more obligated to pass the ranch on to his first born, if he had reason to believe that his firstborn would take care of it properly, just because that's how he got it,

A

As I said, a lot of the writing was lame when it came to the business stuff on Dallas. That includes some of best storylines on Dallas, like the contest in Jock's Will, or how J.R. got the Ewing Oil assests back from Wendell, or Sue Ellen literally buying an entire movie studio, just to make one movie that she never planned to release. But that's because the writers weren't businessmen, and neither were most of us viewers. We weren't watching a documentary on the oil business, we were watching a Soap Opera. So there was often some "dramatic license."
Regardless Miss Ellie has to know JR wouldn’t stop fighting for what he believed was his rightfully and she had to know that cutting John Ross out would hurt him. Dramatic license or not she came off to me as naive regarding JR and cruel regarding John Ross (though something TNT did resolve). One would also hope that she talked to Lucy as well and left her something. Lots of missing pieces.
 

Jabari Lamar

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Regardless Miss Ellie has to know JR wouldn’t stop fighting for what he believed was his rightfully and she had to know that cutting John Ross out would hurt him.
We're clearly never going to come to an agreement on this particular issue, so I'm dropping it.

Dramatic license or not she came off to me as naive regarding JR and cruel regarding John Ross (though something TNT did resolve).
Talk about Dramatic License. She would not have been able to give half ownership of Southfork to John Ross under those circumstances. Bobby already had full ownership, or else he wouldn't have been able to consider selling it in Season 1 of NuDallas. At beast, she could have left a letter asking Bobby to give half to John Ross, and he'd go along with it just to be good son (similar to the way Jock left that letter asking whomever won the contest to share it equally wit, but he would not have been legally obligated to do so. As usual, Cidre and Co. were going for the "shocking reveal" without really thinking it through.


One would also hope that she talked to Lucy as well and left her something. Lots of missing pieces.
Well we never saw her death and Will reading on NuDallas, I presume she had some money and assets outside of ownership of Southfork, and she likely left something for her grandkids.
 
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stevew

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We're clearly never going to come to an agreement on this particular issue, so I'm dropping it.



Talk about Dramatic License. She would not have been able to give half ownership of Southfork to John Ross under those circumstances. Bobby already had full ownership, or else he wouldn't have been able to consider selling it in Season 1 of NuDallas. At beast, she could have left a letter asking Bobby to give half to John Ross, and he'd go along with it just to be good son (similar to the way Jock left that letter asking whomever won the contest to share it equally wit, but he would not have been legally obligated to do so. As usual, Cidre and Co. were going for the "shocking reveal" without really thinking it through.




Well we never saw her death and Will reading on NuDallas, I presume she had some money and assets outside of ownership of Southfork, and she likely left something for her grandkids.
It didn’t appear that she left anything to her grandchildren. They seemed broke.

I get your point about not being able to just give John Ross 1/2 after the fact but in reality since we never saw the paperwork and there was no way she could actually have given him Southfork legally without crippling taxes, one could assume she and Clayton gave it to him in some sort of trust and yes she could have then altered the trust after the fact - depending how it was written. And yes Bobby could have also tried to sell it out from under John Ross knowing what his mother’s arrangements where, to keep it out of his hands while he still had the power to do so. It wasn’t as far fetch to suddenly hear John Ross gets 1/2 as it was to believe she handed one son billions and billions in an asset and they just ignored the tax issues. In that case original Dallas was taking far greater dramatic license than TNT Dallas did and could have given it much more thought - there’s was far more plausible. Fact is once that asset was taxed as a gift or inheritance they’d have to drill to pay the tax. That’s why I said it’s more plausible they legally separated the land and the oil into two separate deeds. And while I do understand it’s a soap and so they take great liberties, I felt originally Dallas wasn’t like that. I felt they took much out of actual events and plausible circumstances and ran with it. Only later did they get sloppy or more soapy.
 

southfork88

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Agreed, and yes this could mainly be an argument of semantics, but I think it's because antihero has the word "hero" in it, so it's hard to think of J.R. that way. He was my favorite character, and the reason I stuck with the show right throught to the end, even as his character got somewhat watered down by bad writing, but he was a clearly a villain. Sure he had his good moments, where he would occasionally be shown to care for others (including Bobby and Sue Ellen, whom he was often at odds with), but he was mostly a bad guy who did bad things. The fact that many of us liked J.R. didn't make him any less of a villain, any more so than fans of Star Wars who like Darth Vader, or Tony Soprano from The Sopranos.

When I think of an antihero, I think of someone who does bad things for good reasons. Putting this in a context of comic-books, Batman and The Punisher are both vigilantes and therefore technically criminals. But Batman beats up and captures bad guys and then turns them over to the proper authorities, thus he's considered a hero, while The Punisher muders bad guys, and thus he is an anti-hero. Going back to TV protagonists, I think Walter White from Breaking Bad could more accurately be called an antihero, as his villainous acts started from a desire to take care of his family after his impending death. While J.R. was simply greedy and selfish. And while some of his actions (Double-crossing, cheating, lying, etc.) could be attributed to simply trying to win in the cut-throat oil business, many of his other actions, including the adultery and rapes, had no justification beyond his own desires. And even the idea that he drew that line at murder, I look at that more as a sign of the times. That probably would have been considered a step too far for a TV show protagonist in the 80's, but not so now. I think if Dallas were created today, J.R. probably wouldn't be above an occasional murder, similar to Frank Underwood or Lucious Lyon.

And even then, while J.R. never directly killed anyone, he certainly was shown to not be above taking actions which would likely lead to people's death, such as hiring a mercenario to blow up Saudi Arabian oil wells, and financing a coup in a foreign country. Not to mention how he seemed to relish in the attempted suicides of Cliff Barnes and Edgar Randolph, both of which were caused by his actions.
From his distorted point of view, J.R is not bad without concrete motivation, but does what he considers right for his economic power and supremacy over women. A villain is the essence of evil or does bad deeds for revenge against others ...
 
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