Will you take the Covid-vaccine?

Michael Torrance

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First thing you need to test with a vaccine, is how long the antibodies do remain in the blood, which is from 12 to 18 month, we're at the BEGINNING of that phase now. After that, the other tests can begin... the safety ones. We are VERY far away from any save vaccine, and that's not a matter of just months.
You are speaking of vaccines like the measles, but this vaccine will be more like the flu, and these antibodies are no longer present after 6 months. But even if antibodies are not present, the immune system now has the prototype in the bone marrow to make them again fast. The reason we have new flu vaccines every year is because the virus mutates, not because immunity through the vaccine or illness does not last. The immunity from this vaccine--same as immunity from antibodies for those who developed them after exposure--will last as long as the virus does not mutate, if the vaccines are deemed effective and safe.
 

Matthew Blaisdel

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You are speaking of vaccines like the measles, but this vaccine will be more like the flu, and these antibodies are no longer present after 6 months. But even if antibodies are not present, the immune system now has the prototype in the bone marrow to make them again fast.
I don't know. They just said in the news that Oxford University is testing right now how long the antibodies of their covid19-vaccine will remain in the blood of the testing persons, and that this will take several months, before they go over to the larger scale tests. That's what they said at the press conference of that University.
 
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Alexis

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... which needs several years of testing, for various reasons. Don't matter how many companies worldwide are working on it. We can't forward time if we want a save vaccine. Everybody who wants to "sell" you a "safely tested" vaccine in the next 2 years is a liar.
What @Angela Channing was saying though is that the vaccine would be an altered form of a kind of vaccine that already exists. A lot of the ground work will already have been done and it just has to be altered to work against Covid.

Covid is a close relative of Sars and there was already a lot work put into Sars vaccines way back in the early 2000s.
 

Matthew Blaisdel

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Angela Channing

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... which needs several years of testing, for various reasons. Don't matter how many companies worldwide are working on it. We can't forward time if we want a save vaccine. Everybody who wants to "sell" you a "safely tested" vaccine in the next 2 years is a liar. Of course it will spread again more in the next winter, you can't prevent that, because there will not be another complete lockdown anymore. And it will cost thousands and maybe millions more lifes.
But that doesn't speedup the time that is needed for an extensively tested for safety vaccine as neither does wishful thinking of politicians or governments. New meds do need a testing phase of 6 years up to a decade, before they can be released safely to everyone (IF they don't fail the tests, which many do), and for good reason.
First thing you need to test with a vaccine, is how long the antibodies do remain in the blood, which is from 12 to 18 month, we're at the BEGINNING of that phase now. After that, the other tests can begin... the safety ones. We are VERY far away from any save vaccine, and that's not a matter of just months.

But i'm glad that meanwhile you changed your opinion from 5 months ago... ;)
Absolutely my view has changed, it would be crazy for opinions not to change with more personal experience, anecdotal evidence and scientific information. I also originally believed a lot of the lies that the UK government was dishing out because at the time I couldn't imagine they would be saying things that would risk people's lives but I was proved wrong.

But what you quoted me as saying wasn't entirely wrong: most healthy people will have a strong enough immune system to fight Covid-19 but that doesn't apply to all healthy people. There have been numerous cases of fit, young healthy people who have died from Covid-19 which was not something that virologists and epidemiologists expected 6 months ago.

What you say about needing years to test if a vaccine is safe is true but if a new vaccine is based on a previous vaccine that has been in use for many years then there is information out there already regarding its safety. Risks also have to be put into context. We can minimise risks from covid-19 by remaining in lockdown but that won't be forever and when that is lifted the risks of the coronavirus spreading rapidly is very possible, some think inevitable. We could wait 2-3 years and see 100,000s of people die or we can use a tested vaccine when it is available and saves those lives which could be the lives of people that use this forum or their parents, their partners, their children.

A vaccine will never have no risks but the annual flu virus isn't zero risk, aspirin isn't zero risk and cough medicine aren't zero risk, so it's not realistic to expect a Covid-19 vaccine to be zero risk. We just have to rely on the researchers to test the vaccine according to established protocols to ensure it is a safe as possible.
 

Angela Channing

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This is very important. Someone could have minor cold/flu like symptoms and just carry on as normal but could infect hundreds of people who will infect more and so on. Those people are the dangerous ones. Going to work, using transport, meeting people. Inadvertently killing off or making seriously ill people with compromised immune systems and underlying health conditions.
This is precisely right. A standard process for making a new vaccine is to use a virus that is safe to human, insert a short inert protein chain from the Covid-19 virus into it and introduce it into people to see if they develop antibodies to it. The virus they use will have been used for many years in the past so will have a long record of being safe. If they were developing the vaccine completely from scratch then there would need to be a longer test period to see if side effects occurred after one or more years, but that isn't the case with the vaccines being developed now.

The difference now is that much more resources are being thrown at Covid-19 research than has been the case for coronaviruses in the past which is accelerating progress and increasing the likelihood of finding a vaccine far sooner than has been the case in the past.
 

Angela Channing

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I don't know. They just said in the news that Oxford University is testing right now how long the antibodies of their covid19-vaccine will remain in the blood of the testing persons, and that this will take several months, before they go over to the larger scale tests. That's what they said at the press conference of that University.
They are doing the testing in parallel to speed things up. At the same time as ding this they are giving the vaccine to half a million volunteers around the world in Covid-19 hotspots to see if those who are inoculated have a lower rate of infection.

Normally, a vaccine would have to pass certain tests regarding its effectiveness before they get funding to go on to the next stage of the research but money is not a limiting factor with this vaccine so they can move more rapidly.
 

Emelee

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Many specialists are trying to voice their concerns, and if specialists are concerned, then I am too. I fear the pressure to present a ready vaccine will cause money-hungry companies to cut corners. Governments with no medical knowledge will rush to get millions of doses. I fear for a big "oops" in the future when we know the outcome.


https://theconversation.com/fast-co...ut-the-integrity-of-scientists-at-risk-139824

It typically takes a minimum of 10 years for a vaccine to complete the three consecutive phases of the clinical research pipeline. This is because of the scope and length of the experiments, the need to critically assess the results at each stage and the mountains of paperwork that are involved.

Educators often rely on past performance to predict the future performance of students. In this respect, how was the performance of the scientific community in the wake of the original SARS-CoV, or Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS)-CoV? The fact is, no vaccine against a coronavirus has successfully navigated the rigours of clinical testing, despite having up to 17 years to do so.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-risks-of-rushing-a-covid-19-vaccine/

While preclinical trials to evaluate the potential safety and efficacy of vaccine candidates are likely to include tens of thousands of patients, it is still unclear whether that number will be large enough and a trial will last long enough to evaluate safety for a drug that would be administered to so many. The US alone plans to vaccinate hundreds of millions of people with the first successful candidate. One serious adverse event per thousand of a vaccine given to 100 million people means harm to 100,000 otherwise healthy people.

https://www.chemistryworld.com/news...t-tracking-a-covid-19-vaccine/4012130.article

Among the top concerns is the potential that a fast-tracked vaccine will have unintended side-effects. No vaccine is 100% safe, but if a billion people are vaccinated, a one in 10,000 serious adverse event will affect 100,000 of those people.

One potential adverse event is antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE), a type of immune reaction where vaccination makes subsequent exposure to the virus more dangerous. The condition – which has been observed with vaccines for measles, respiratory syncytial virus and dengue virus, as well as in animal models for the original Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (Sars) virus – occurs when the body, primed by a vaccine, generates antibodies that don’t sufficiently neutralise the virus when later exposed to it and instead encourage the virus into cells to replicate, exacerbating the disease. However, there is still a lot we don’t know about coronaviruses, which is another concern with speedy vaccine development.
 

Alexis

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I mean I don't see pharmaceutical companies trying to rush through an unsafe vaccine to make money if there is potential for them to be sued in the future over adverse side effects. I am sure that every precaution is being taken. And what's the alternative? We all isolate for a decade?
 

Angela Channing

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I mean I don't see pharmaceutical companies trying to rush through an unsafe vaccine to make money if there is potential for them to be sued in the future over adverse side effects. I am sure that every precaution is being taken. And what's the alternative? We all isolate for a decade?
Exactly!

It may not be true for all researchers but the group at Oxford University are committed to not making a profit from any vaccine they develop and will provide the vaccine to governments worldwide at cost price. Their objective is to save lives not to make money.
Many specialists are trying to voice their concerns, and if specialists are concerned, then I am too. I fear the pressure to present a ready vaccine will cause money-hungry companies to cut corners. Governments with no medical knowledge will rush to get millions of doses. I fear for a big "oops" in the future when we know the outcome.

https://theconversation.com/fast-co...ut-the-integrity-of-scientists-at-risk-139824

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-risks-of-rushing-a-covid-19-vaccine/

https://www.chemistryworld.com/news...t-tracking-a-covid-19-vaccine/4012130.article
Your quote from the first link is only relevant for vaccines that are developed from scratch not those adapted from existing vaccines. Do you really think we have to wait 10 years for the annual flu virus? It's a rapidly mutating virus which would look very different in 10 years time and if we were waiting 10 years it wouldn't be effective by the time it was ready.

Your quote from the second link talks about testing the virus on tens of thousands of people but the Oxford University team plan to test it on 500,000 volunteers to be particularly rigorous in their safety testing. This link and the third one also talks about a vaccine potentially causing harm to 100,000 people which is pure speculation and not founded in any evidence, it's just a random number plucked out of the air. However, compare that with 640,000 people who have died of Covid-19 worldwide and that figure won't include the 100,000s who are living with long term complications having recovered from the coronavirus.
 
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Emelee

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Your quote from the first link is only relevant for vaccines that are developed from scratch not those adapted from existing vaccines. Do you really think we have to wait 10 years for the annual flu virus? It's a rapidly mutating virus which would look very different in 10 years time and if we were waiting 10 years it wouldn't be effective by the time it was ready.

Your quote from the second link talks about testing the virus on tens of thousands of people but the Oxford University team plan to test it on 500,000 volunteers to be particularly rigorous in their safety testing. This link and the third one also talks about a vaccine potentially causing harm to 100,000 people which is pure speculation and not founded in any evidence, it's just a random number plucked out of the air. However, compare that with 640,000 people who have died of Covid-19 worldwide and that figure won't include the 100,000s who are living with long term complications having recovered from the coronavirus.
The annual flus are predictable. COVID-19 is anything but predictable. It's much easier to make the annual flu vaccines. They are not the same type of virus as a corona virus. It's like saying "a cure for cancer" thinking cancer is only one disease when in fact it's hundreds of different diseases and no treatment will work for all. Scientists know before the annual seasonal flu begins to spread what types of virus the upcoming flu will be because there are so few to choose among. Influenza A or Influenza B with their subgroups are the main two virus types that causes the annual flu. Therefore, it is very easy to create a vaccine.

It's impossible to compare the annual influenza vaccines with COVID-19. Annual flu viruses are spread on one family tree with all its branches. Corona viruses are one a completely other tree, which makes the comparison as difficult as comparing apples and oranges.

I don't suggest giving up, I suggest being level-headed and not cutting any corners. I'd rather have a slightly safer vaccine in July of 2021 instead of a less tested one in January 2021. With 8 months of the virus and more than 11 million infected, the virus still has not mutated noticably. It changes slower than other known viruses. Some scientists believe it's because we haven't tested a vaccine yet (as viruses like everything else evolves only when it needs to for survival).

I also feel that when we get the first approved vaccine, getting vaccinated should be 100% volountary. No shaming people who don't want it. No putting pressure on people to get vaccinated. No "it's now or never" deal to scare people into taking it. People are very good at shaming others, so I don't want people who have gotten vaccinated to brag about it or get an "I'm vaccinated"-pin to show off.

I myself will get vaccinated only when I feel it's safe, not a moment sooner. I don't want to be forced or pressured to take a vaccine that probably should take 10 years to be released. Especially knowing that I am sensitive/allergic towards "perfectly safe" medication such as Morphine and Ibuprofen etc. If the vaccine works for 99% and I am part of the 1%, the world may not care because it worked for most. But I care.
 

Angela Channing

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The annual flus are predictable. COVID-19 is anything but predictable. It's much easier to make the annual flu vaccines. They are not the same type of virus as a corona virus. It's like saying "a cure for cancer" thinking cancer is only one disease when in fact it's hundreds of different diseases and no treatment will work for all. Scientists know before the annual seasonal flu begins to spread what types of virus the upcoming flu will be because there are so few to choose among. Influenza A or Influenza B with their subgroups are the main two virus types that causes the annual flu. Therefore, it is very easy to create a vaccine.
But they don't spend 10 years to test it before they release the vaccine. That was my point. The reason why they don't test for 10 years is because the flue vaccine is just a variation on an existing vaccine and not an entirely new one. The same is true for the Covid -19 vaccine that is currently begin tested by Oxford University.
I don't suggest giving up, I suggest being level-headed and not cutting any corners. I'd rather have a slightly safer vaccine in July of 2021 instead of a less tested one in January 2021. With 8 months of the virus and more than 11 million infected, the virus still has not mutated noticably. It changes slower than other known viruses. Some scientists believe it's because we haven't tested a vaccine yet (as viruses like everything else evolves only when it needs to for survival).
Corners are not being cut. The tests are being done concurrently instead of consecutively so shorten the timelines but there is no less rigorous. A vaccine will still have to pass all the current safety regulations.
I myself will get vaccinated only when I feel it's safe, not a moment sooner. I don't want to be forced or pressured to take a vaccine that probably should take 10 years to be released. Especially knowing that I am sensitive/allergic towards "perfectly safe" medication such as Morphine and Ibuprofen etc. If the vaccine works for 99% and I am part of the 1%, the world may not care because it worked for most. But I care.
I wish you well and you have to do what you think is right for you.

Stay safe because many people who get Covid-19 have to take a lot of medication, including significant pain relief, so it might be difficult to treat someone who is particularly sensitive to medication.
 

Barbara Fan

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As a NHS employee I will take the vaccine and the sooner the better, Ive seen the effects of it on patients and Ive seen people die as a result. Not always the result of damaged lungs but a few have died due to Pulmonary embolisms as a result and one was younger than me which is scary, its not just the elderly who were affected.

Some of my colleagues have signed up for trials
 

Angela Channing

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I am jealous of people who were off work during the C19 crisis, I have a friend who was furloughed and she has loved every minute of it, she has taken up new hobbies / skills, improved her fitness and signed up to 2 online classes which are American so she gets up at 3am to take part!
I can see that and it's great that people have been making something positive out of being in furlough but there's another side to the situation.

I'm self employed and all my work dried up once the lockdown started so I've not worked for months. Because I live at alone I've not had a proper face to face conversation with anyone since March. I not touched anyone, shaken any hands, hugged anyone, shared a joke with anyone, cried with any one. I've had friends who have lost parents or partners to Covid-19 and I've not be able to console them properly. Yes, I've had phone conversations and Zoom calls but it's not the same. I don't drive so I can't easily get to someone to form "a bubble" with them.

Work would have given me something positive to do amongst all the negativity of being in lockdown and without that it has been really difficult to feel appreciated, wanted or good about myself. I've mostly been OK but it's hasn't been easy.
 

Emelee

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But they don't spend 10 years to test it before they release the vaccine. That was my point. The reason why they don't test for 10 years is because the flue vaccine is just a variation on an existing vaccine and not an entirely new one. The same is true for the Covid -19 vaccine that is currently begin tested by Oxford University.
That's not what I've read about that project. I've read that they have gone a slightly different route. Something about switching the content of a virus causing colds to produce fragments of protein from the C19 virus. This causing the body to believe you've been infected by C19 and triggering the immune system to create antibodies. Something like that anyway. At least it was about not staring with an old potential vaccine for corona viruses.
 

Angela Channing

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That's not what I've read about that project. I've read that they have gone a slightly different route. Something about switching the content of a virus causing colds to produce fragments of protein from the C19 virus. This causing the body to believe you've been infected by C19 and triggering the immune system to create antibodies. Something like that anyway. At least it was about not staring with an old potential vaccine for corona viruses.
You're partially correct.

The virus the vaccine is based on is one that originated in a primate (either a chimp or baboon, I can't remember which one) and has been used many times before in the development of many vaccines in the past so they know its safe.

They are not switching its contentts, just replacing a short chain of harmless protein with one from covid-19 so the the human body will develop antibodies to the harmless protein chain and the hope and expectation is that they will also be effective in killing the full covid-19 virus.

If you've read something different then thst article is wrong because I saw the scientist leading the research being nterviewed on TV and she described the work they were doing.
 

Emelee

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You're partially correct.

The virus the vaccine is based on is one that originated in a primate (either a chimp or baboon, I can't remember which one) and has been used many times before in the development of many vaccines in the past so they know its safe.

They are not switching its contentts, just replacing a short chain of harmless protein with one from covid-19 so the the human body will develop antibodies to the harmless protein chain and the hope and expectation is that they will also be effective in killing the full covid-19 virus.

If you've read something different then thst article is wrong because I saw the scientist leading the research being nterviewed on TV and she described the work they were doing.
I didn't memorize what I read in perfect detail. It was something about modifying or switching something in one particular place.

Either way, I hope they are successful and that we will have a safe vaccine ASAP.

The entire population don't need to get vaccinated. ~80% will suffice.
 

Michael Torrance

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The entire population don't need to get vaccinated. ~80% will suffice.
But we won't get there, because hardly less than half will take it. The rest will make their usual conspiracy scenarios to avoid it.
 
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Emelee

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But we won't get there, because hardly less than half will take it. The rest will make their usual conspiracy scenarios to avoid it.
There are other reasons for not taking a vaccine. Some seem to think they are invincible and don't need it. Some don't dare take it because they are scared of needles. Some might think they are too ill to let their immune system deal with the vaccine on top of everything else. Some may think that because they've already had COVID-19, they are immune. While we have conspiracy theory idiots in Sweden too, very few of them are against vaccine. It's next to against the law not to vaccinate children for the usual stuff here. I haven't heard of any big anti-vaxxer group here. Therefore, I think those who won't get vaccinated for C-19 here are choosing that for other reasons than conspiracy.


About 60% Swedes took the swine flu vaccine Pandemrix ~10 years ago. The actual swine flu didn't hit us hard, so 60% is a large number. However, researchers later calculated that only 6 lives were saved by the mass vaccination. Almost 500 got narcolepsy. And a few people died as a direct result of the vaccine, my colleague's little brother for one. (He got severe epilepsia from the Pandemrix and died during a seizure). As it turned out, the vaccine was not safe for children. One of the proteins in the vaccine was at fault if I remember correctly.

COVID-19 has hit much much harder and I believe most Swedes will want the vaccine. But I also think there will be those who were directly or indirectly affected by narcolepsy. Either themself or someone they know. And I think they will be at least worried about this vaccine.
 

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I'll take it when there is one (when it has been proven to work; hopefully we get one in the near future).
 
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