"Do you like scary movies?": the Scream thread

Marley Drama

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Because it's the Silver Anniversary. The fifth film is on the way.


And we really need to discuss Courteney Cox's lockdown haircut in Scream 3.









 

Crimson

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I'm a big fan of the original SCREAM. It's one of Top 10 favorite horror films and would rank somewhere in a listing of my favorite films over all. Just last weekend, I saw the re-release in theater; I'm pretty sure I had not seen the original until it made its way to cable, although I did see a couple of the sequels in theaters.

I'm not a big fan of slashers in general. Of the two main cycles -- the 70s/80s heyday and the 90s revivals -- I only like the originator of both groups: the first HALLOWEEN and the first SCREAM. I have no interest in the sequels and copycats. The SCREAM sequels in particular are that peculiar breed of follow ups that manage to somehow be both repetitive and overly convoluted. Whereas I watch SCREAM every Halloween, I'm not sure I've ever rewatched the sequels; if so, it's been years.

I'm only tepidly interested in SCREAM 5, the soft reboot. For one, it's weird to release it in January rather than the Halloween season. I don't watch horror movies much outside of October. Plus, as a soft reboot rather than just a straight sequel, it has a bigger challenge: it needs to repurpose itself for a new era in much the same way SCREAM resuscitated the slasher genre 25 years ago.
 
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darkshadows38

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my favorite is the 2nd one (1997) that's the 1st dvd i ever bought in November of (1998) and the 2nd one is Scream (1996) the 1st one so for ages it felt like when i only had a few dvd's from (1998) until like (2000) i had very little dvd's but when i first bought my 1st player in November of (1998) i was so excited to owning one that i watched those 2 films non stop because for awhile they were the only ones i had on dvd. now i have hundreds of dvd's and bluray's. honestly they didn't need to make a 5th one at all. and yeah that was a Terrible Haircut Courtney Cox had back than wasn't it?
 

Marley Drama

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I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with the series, but thoroughly enjoyed my rewatch of the first film a couple of nights ago.

The original three films are ones I've watched many times over and I especially liked the first two. As I've got older, I've found my tolerance for graphic violence has lowered and I started to enjoy it less.

On my rewatch of the original film the other night, I also realised that I found the female characters endearing and lively while the male characters frequently irritated me as they're played very broadly. Randy and Kenny were the exceptions since they're meant to be endearingly funny. And I also enjoyed older characters such as the various Dads and Joseph Whipp as Sheriff Burke.

I especially love the town of Woodsboro created in the first film. The locations and cinematography are stunning and I love the rich, warm, autumnal tone of the film.
 

Marley Drama

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Just last weekend, I saw the re-release in theater; I'm pretty sure I had not seen the original until it made its way to cable, although I did see a couple of the sequels in theaters.

Great that you've finally got to see it on the big screen. Like you, I missed Scream on first release - I was introduced to it by a friend when it came out on VHS - but saw the first two sequels in the cinema.

I'm especially impressed that you like the film so much despite not being a fan of slashers. It goes to show the quality behind it.



Love the first and second especially.
my favorite is the 2nd one (1997)

This sounds promising. While I've seen the first three films many, many times, it's been probably six or seven years since I've watched them. I remember the first two as being good, so fingers crossed I still find it to be.




that's the 1st dvd i ever bought in November of (1998) and the 2nd one is Scream (1996)

I got a DVD player in spring 2000, and the first DVD I bought was Jaws (it was also my first Blu-ray almost a decade and a half later). This means I started out with the first two films on VHS, which I think I later replaced with individial DVDs. I can remember there were different editions depending whether you wanted Full Frame or Widescreen, because people were just latching on to the fact that you missed half the picture with Full Frame.

I do remember getting the trilogy set on DVD for Christmas in 2000 and it was one of my prized DVDs. It was really nicely packaged and folded out.

Because I haven't watched it much recently, I've never got round to replacing the DVDs with Blu-rays. I was a little tempted by the new Scream 4K Blu-ray which is released today, but decided I'd rather wait in the hope the original trilogy is released as a package.






Very unique and clever!

The layers of story in the first film are incredible. It's really well structured. It does lose a little something after the first watch and you know who's behind the killings, but even then there's so much to interest.

I really feel that Sidney is the heart and soul of the series. She's incredibly endearing and likeable right from her first scene and has quite the journey.
 

Marley Drama

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I'm only tepidly interested in SCREAM 5, the soft reboot. For one, it's weird to release it in January rather than the Halloween season. I don't watch horror movies much outside of October. Plus, as a soft reboot rather than just a straight sequel, it has a bigger challenge: it needs to repurpose itself for a new era in much the same way SCREAM resuscitated the slasher genre 25 years ago.

Yes. Scream 4 had a similar challenge since it had been so many years. And I don't think it was very successful in achieving that (having said that I've only watched it once, shortly after it first came out. I might continue watching on from the first and give all four another go this October).

I'm interested to see how Scream 5 presents itself, but since there's no Wes Craven (sadly), no Kevin Williamson and no Marco Beltrami I think they have an uphill struggle.
 

Crimson

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I especially love the town of Woodsboro created in the first film.

It's a good point. The original SCREAM has a good sense of place, something most movies -- particularly horror films -- don't bother with.

Yes. Scream 4 had a similar challenge since it had been so many years. And I don't think it was very successful in achieving that

The idea of a cinematic soft reboot is interesting: films that are sequels, reboots and semi-remakes simultaneously. I think the idea first popped up in 2015, with CREED, THE FORCE AWAKENS and VACATION all serving that function.

If SCREAM 5 is going to work, it needs to do more than just blend the old with the new. It's not enough to just retread of 90s glibness and 80s gruesomeness with, presumably, a dash of 2020s wokeness and technology; it will need to bring something new to the table in the way SCREAM revitalized the slasher genre. I suspect it won't be nearly that ambitious.
 

Marley Drama

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The original SCREAM has a good sense of place, something most movies -- particularly horror films -- don't bother with.

True. The ones that seem to have the deepest impact on me have a sense of community, whether it's Woodsboro, Haddonfield or Amity. The latest Halloween film seems to have embraced that, at least according to some of Jamie Lee Curtis's promotional interviews. She claims Halloween Kills is the town's story.

While some captured the original film's rich warm cinematography, the Scream sequels lost something special by moving away from Woodsboro, though it was at least acknowledged and name-checked regularly as a key part of the series' DNA.



It's not enough to just retread of 90s glibness and 80s gruesomeness with, presumably, a dash of 2020s wokeness and technology; it will need to bring something new to the table in the way SCREAM revitalized the slasher genre. I suspect it won't be nearly that ambitious.

I'd say you're right, but I'd love us to be wrong.



It is funny how that happens -- not that my cinema sadism was ever all that high.

Mine neither. The more splattery end of the horror market has never appealed to me. But my horror choices are definitely even more limited these days.
 

Marley Drama

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Last night I watched Scream 2 for the first time in a number of years.



Off the back of the original - which I watched four days earlier - this one holds up pretty well. It looks good and feels as though it builds on the legacy left by the earlier film. There are enough returnees from the first to make it satisfying, and not just in front of the cameras: Wes Craven, Roger L. Jackson and Marco Beltrami are also crucial pieces of the puzzle.

There's little sense of the film's rushed production and drastic writing changes on screen. It all looks polished and finished. All the same, I'd have been interested to see how it would have shaped up with the original reveal of Derek and Hallie as the killers.

The supporting cast is really impressive, with familiar faces everywhere you turn: Sarah Michelle Gellar; Portia de Rossi; Joshua Jackson; Heather Graham; Luke Wilson. And even that Tori Spelling cameo, picking up on a throwaway line of dialogue from the first film. Possibly my favourite of the smaller roles is The Omen's David Warner as Sid's avuncular drama teacher, Gus Gold. It's just a cough and a spit, but it's done with such gravitas. I really wish he'd had a bit more to do, but at least he got to introduce the theme of fated destiny and draw parallels between Cassandra and Sidney (in much the same way as the classroom scene in Halloween introduced similar themes for Laurie Strode).

But the more recognisable secondary players also represent a problem I have with the second film: it lacks the intimacy of the first. Scream 2 works from a broader palette. It feels as though it operates on a bigger, more epic scale than the first film. This can be seen everywhere from the über-dramatic Cassandra performance (so big they had to wheel in Danny Elfman to score it) to the cafeteria jam with its Top Gun homage to the elaborate death scenes promised in the film's own rules. They all serve to make the film feel both more ambitious and less intimate.

The aforementioned death scenes are similarly double-edged, being more vicious and violent (most victims are stabbed multiple times, with Jada Pinkett's death feeling particularly unpleasant. And of course there's the pole-through-the-eye car crash death of the heterosexual policeman). At the same time, they somehow feel less meaningful than those in the first film.

While I greatly miss Woodsboro, Neve, Courteney and Randy are a welcome injection of familiarity. Sid is as captivating as ever, still clearly carrying the psychological scars from the earlier film, while also being far more kick-arse when the going gets tough. Gale is arguably more developed and interesting in this second film than the first. She's even more pushy and hard, but this is balanced by her soft underbelly, especially in scenes between she and Dewey. Randy's arc is particularly memorable here, and his early exit works in the character's favour since he didn't have to schlep through Scream 3. However, watching the film last night, I couldn't help wondering if it might have been Dewey's time to leave.

Having found Dewey perfectly acceptable in my rewatch of the first film, I started to question why my memory told me the character was irritating. With his arrival in this film, I didn't need wonder any longer. David Arquette is absolutely insufferable here. He's just painful to watch. He's no longer playing the Dewey we saw in the first film. He's playing David Arquette playing Dewey. And he doesn't seem able to differentiate between characters and actors. Here he plays scenes with his real-life father and girlfriend, and those lines seem blurred. When Dewey is angry at Gale, David seems to play it with a subtext that loudly tells the audience "I can't be angry at Courteney because I wuvs her". This kind of thing is endearing now and then, but not all the time. In all of his scenes it comes across that he's having fun with his castmates, but for an audience to invest in the story there needs to be more to than this. He grimaces and grins simultaneously, alternately squinting and flashing his eyes while wrinkling his nose to try and look endearing. It feels he's permanently on the verge of supplying something for the gag reel. It's incredibly distracting. His character was hugely popular in the first film (if memory serves, the ending was re-written so that he survived), and it feels that he's riding that wave without even trying anymore, even though he's being paid generously to deliver a professional performance in a role many actors would crawl over glass to play.

At the other end of the scale, what a gem Liev Schreiber is. It blows my mind that Cotton Weary - a character shown wordlessly on a TV set for milliseconds in the original film - is one of the best things about this sequel. He's so intense, complex and unpredictable and helps really ground and sell the film's ending.

Of the new characters, Derek, Mickey and Joel are brilliant. Maureen and Phil also made a believable and relatable couple in the opening act. With the first film, I had this main complaint:

The younger men are played very broadly as gurning clowns who can't take anything seriously, and there are are too many "adorably clueless" or comic relief types among the men. Kenny and Randy are the exceptions as the lighthearted stuff feels appropriate for them and they both steal their respective scenes.

With so many terrific male characters, this film has well and truly rectified that. Even with Joel and Randy both supplying many of the film's wisecracks and quips (Joel's falsetto "Yes I got that on film" comeback never fails to make me laugh out loud) there's enough balance and diversity among the male characters this time that there's room for that.

If anything, it's the secondary female players who are the least developed this time round, with Cici, Hallie and probably "Debbie Salt" all suffering in the process of rewrites, while Lois and Murphy feel tertiary at best. All five get by mostly on the charisma of the actresses playing them. And fortunately, they all have charisma for days.

I've always had a problem with the Mrs Loomis reveal. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of her taking her revenge. It all makes sense. But, as enjoyable as it is to rewatch the film with the benefit of hindsight and enjoy the little exchanges between Debbie and Gale, it's also the laziest kind of murder-mystery reveal. Even though it feels as though there must be a reason for Debbie popping up at key moments, there's next to no opportunity for first time viewers to guess what possible motive she would have. The only dialogue that hints at the truth is Debbie's mention that the killer could be from Woodsboro, but even with this, the reveal can only ever feel like a cheat.

I also feel there's more contrivance in this film. From the killer telepathically pre-empting Phil's response and knowing the exact moment and spot to strike through the wall of a toilet cubicle, to Sid running into the school's theatre just in time for the finale, there's an awful lot that's simply rather too convenient which makes it feel too cheesy and theatrical.

The meta references extend to discussion of sequels: "Sequels suck... by definition alone they're inferior films", says Scream 2 Randy. It feels cheeky and audacious, and not a little egocentric. But it kind of works. After all, when it comes to this kind of reference in the Scream films, the "core audience just expects it".

One angle I do enjoy with this film is the amped up suspense. Watching this in the cinema back in '97 I remember getting sweaty palms during the sequence where Sid and Hallie have to clamber over the unconscious killer to get out of the police car. It's very effective and utilises a lot of cliches while also playing against them. While it's never going to have the same effect on me past that first watch, I can still appreciated what a wonderfully tense sequence it is. And on repeat viewings there are layers of character, especially those close ups of Sid, with Neve Campbell's eyes showing so many different emotions. Back then I also found Ghostface's pursuit of Gale through the studio very suspenseful, and I still like the atmosphere of that one.

It was never going to outdo the unique impact of the first film, but it's fun to watch them trying. As first sequels to films of any genre, I'd say Scream 2 is a success. There's a lot to love about it.
 

Crimson

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And even that Tori Spelling cameo, picking up on a throwaway line of dialogue from the first film

David seems to play it with a subtext

I also feel there's more contrivance in this film.

The meta references extend to discussion of sequels "Sequels suck... by definition alone they're inferior films",


I think all of this cumulatively covers why I don't care for the sequel very much. SCREAM, for all of its knowingness, feels grounded and plausible; at least as plausible as any slasher flick can be. The sequel undermines itself with too many wink-wink jokes, too much contrivance, too much self-awareness. I can't get sucked into a story that constantly draws attention to itself. The Tori Spelling cameo might have gotten a laugh, but it's a cheap gag that strains credibility: what's the likelihood that the very actress Sid cracked would play her did in fact play her? Sometimes too much really is too much.
 
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Oh!Carol Christmasson

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It is funny how that happens -- not that my cinema sadism was ever all that high.
I feel I'm getting more sadistic, not less. The Canadian series SLASHER is seriously brutal and I love it (but they also have great characters and a sense of place so it never becomes mind-numbing).
 

Snarky Oracle!

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The original SCREAM has a good sense of place, something most movies -- particularly horror films -- don't bother with.

And a sense of place is exactly why most horror films don't work -- that and a lack of sadness which is a requisite quality if the movie's not going to be junk.

I feel I'm getting more sadistic, not less. The Canadian series SLASHER is seriously brutal and I love it (but they also have great characters and a sense of place so it never becomes mind-numbing).

Sexual frustration.
 

Marley Drama

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I think all of this cumulatively covers why I don't care for the sequel very much. SCREAM, for all of its knowingness, feels grounded and plausible; at least as plausible as any slasher flick can be. The sequel undermines itself with too many wink-wink jokes, too much contrivance, too much self-awareness. I can't get sucked into a story that constantly draws attention to itself. The Tori Spelling cameo might have gotten a laugh, but it's a cheap gag that strains credibility: what's the likelihood that the very actress Sid cracked would play her did in fact play her? Sometimes too much really is too much.

Yes. I can understand that.

And Scream 3 makes the first sequel look like a masterpiece (not that this is stopping me from rewatching it).
 

Marley Drama

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Scream 3 makes the first sequel look like a masterpiece (not that this is stopping me from rewatching it).


It didn't. A few thoughts on last nights rewatch of Scream 3:


Even the first time I watched this it felt very much like an inferior product. At the very best, it's a different genre.

The original Scream was satirical, but at its heart was always a good thriller, played more or less straight, that had the power to shock. The problem facing any attempt at a sequel was that Scream had already pushed its knowing, self-referential elements to the limits, knowing just how far to go in order to stay the right side of silly (and even that film had Ghostface walking round a supermarket in broad daylight). It was almost impossible to take these things further and be taken as seriously. Scream 2 was as good a sequel tonally as we could expect.

Scream 3 takes entirely the wrong approach. It's no longer a witty satire of the horror genre. Instead it's become a bizarre parody of the existing Scream films. The balance of comedy and horror is skewed completely the wrong way: it's now a broad comedy with a few jump scares and stabbings. If Scary Movie (coming a few months after Scream 3) was a redundant film by virtue of the fact that it spoofed a film that was already a subtle satire, it's even less needed with Scream 3 fouling its franchise's own nest and becoming a silly Scream cash-in played for laughs.

Meta elements are taken to ridiculous levels, with characters interacting with Stab versions of themselves and running around a film set version of Woodsboro.

Worst of all, most of the comedy isn't very funny, with perhaps the original trilogy's nadir being the moment where Ghostface flings a knife at Dewey (complete with "whoop whoop whoop" sounds as we follow it through the air) and its blunt end connects with Dewey, knocking him down the stairs. It's just dire.

Its saving grace in the funny department is Parker Posey doing her usual eccentric OTT thing (playing an actress named Jennifer Jolie who's recently dated Brad Pitt. Hmmm). If we must watch a comedy instead of a Scream film, I'm glad she's part of it. But really, it seems very wrong in a Scream film that an actress playing an actress playing Gale should be far, far more watchable than Gale herself. Courteney Cox Arquette is in full-on Friends mode here, which seems pointless considering she sought the role of Gale to get away from that kind of image. In good news, with everyone else hamming it up, David Arquette's overacting doesn't irritate quite as much as it did in Scream 2.


While Jamie Kennedy's return is very welcome, I don't enjoy the contrivance of him pre-empting Dewey's reactions and conversing with him via a pre-recorded video.

Speaking of contrivances, there are a number present in this film and a couple really jar. Firstly, there's Roman's apparently fearful comment that his decapitated award was some kind of message from the killer. It plays up his (apparent) naivety and gets a little laugh, but it makes no sense whatsover by film's end. This film also has the silliest death with Tom Prinze being blown up by CGI in a Final Destination moment. But really, why would all the characters do exactly what the killer wants them to by running outside right on cue. And once outside, why would Tom then return inside. And just why did no-one smell the gas? Even within this reality, there's no logic at all behind this sequence.

The Stab franchise - introduced at the beginning of the first sequel - is to blame for making Ghostface almost a legend within the reality of the series. The more something is known, the less frightening it becomes, and Scream 3 builds on that trend by not only showing him far too much, but also by taking away any mystique he had in the first film. We visit costume departments where rows of sparkly Ghostface costumes are hanging, reminding us of the illusion behind filmmaking and undermining any fear the costume might invoke if shown judiciously. The opening act has a Ghostface POV over which we hear his altered voice. And by film's end, he's standing having a lengthy natter with Sidney in a room with not a shadow to be seen.

That said, Scott Foley makes the best of his character's arc and does convince in a role that involves duality. Patrick Dempsey is great as Detective Mark Kinkaid, who is intense enough to give the audience doubt, but also has a rugged leading man quality that allowed me to root for him to connect with Sid. There's also the ever-reliable Lance Henriksen. The (all-too-brief) return of Liev Schreiber. And Kelly Rutherford (best known to me from Kindred: The Embraced and Melrose Place) brings something to the opening act. There's even Carrie Fisher, mining gold from a thanklessly clunky cameo as an actress who looks like Carrie Fisher. Most of the film can be summed up in four words: Great Actors/Terrible Writing.

There are moments of genuine heart, most of which come from Neve Campbell. Thank God someone was taking this seriously or it would have been even more of a mess. I enjoyed Sid's scenes with her father (far less so, her mother), and she had great chemistry with Patrick Dempsey's character. Without exception, the Sid scenes are great. They are the reason this film works at all, and I'm sure a clever editor could re-cut the whole film around these (and perhaps some deleted footage) to give us a film much closer in tone to the first two.
 

Marley Drama

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Last night I gave Scream 4 a second screening:


My relationship with this one is very different from the other three, owing to the facts that it came a decade later than the others and I've only watched it once before, back when it first came out on DVD. I've never felt inclined to watch it again. Until last night.

One thing Scream 3 did well was wrap up Sid, Gale and Dewey's stories. If nothing else, at least the ending came with a sense of closure. At the time it was made it was said to be the final part of a trilogy, which would render a fourth instalment pointless. There was little in last night's rewatch to convince me otherwise. It was mildly interesting as a reunion film, to see Gale and Dewey after a decade of married life and Sidney's return to Woodsboro for her book launch (everyone's an author now).

As it is, Gale was back on form, after being softened in Scream 3. Courteney Cox's obvious cosmetic procedures would be distracting if it wasn't such a Gale Weathers thing to do (Sid's long-lost aunt is another matter). Sid's as reliable as ever, even if the material means it all feels a little pointless. Dewey's role feels relatively small compared with other returnees. This is a good thing. Supplementing his role is "Deputy Judy", his winsome colleague whose perpetual Ally McBeal throat clearing made me wish for her throat to be cleared out of her neck by the killer (such violence. Perhaps I've watched enough of these films).

The cast is padded out by a load of dull, indistinguishable, mostly unlikeable youngsters who speak so quickly I missed much of the dialogue. Most watchable of the young cast is Hayden Panettiere as Kirby. She has a great moment in the latter part of the film where she reels off a particularly lengthy list of horror remakes to the killer.
Kirby said:
Halloween, uh, Texas Chainsaw; Dawn Of The Dead; The Hills Have Eyes; Amityville Horror; uh, Last House On The Left; Friday The 13th; A Nightmare On Elm Street; My Bloody Valentine; When A Stranger Calls; Prom Night; Black Christmas; House Of Wax; The Fog; Piranha. It's one of those, right? Right?

One reason I've never wanted to rewatch was the thought of revisiting the opening sequence with its film within a film within a film within the film we're watching. I struggled with it again last night, and the first "real" kill felt completely meaningless because I was still waiting for it to be revealed as yet another fake film the characters are watching. Using the sequence to criticise being too meta simply didn't do it. It felt cheap and might explain why this presumably intended reboot went nowhere.

A Scream film needs an angle, be it horror films, sequels, trilogies or whatnot. This film's "thing" is New Decade, New Rules. We're now in a world of horror where Scream is old hat and subverting rules is the only way to hold the interest of its Millennial and Gen Z audience.

Problem is, Scream 4 still feels a little quaint in that regard. Characters "ooh" and "aah" at webcasts and marvel at the idea of killings being filmed when this kind of thing was being done by horror films in the immediate wake of Scream over a decade earlier. One thing that did feel chillingly truthful was Jill saying that she killed to gain fame and fans and hits. Narcissistic teens are some of the most frightening people on the planet, so that rang true.
 
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