Doctor Who

[pete lashmar]

The Season 23 story was to be called "The Nightmare Fair", and would indeed have returned the Toymaker, portrayed so excellently by Michael Gough during the Hartnell era. I always thought Colin Baker was underrated as the Doctor, and from what I read, he was fired because a BBC boss had a personal grudge against him.

Michael Grade (BBC boss) hated Doctor Who full stop and wanted it axed, but I think during Colin's era the budgets were so low that the whole production suffered severely, which gave Grade even more ammunition even though he created the problem. But yes, he felt that Colin had been miscast in the role and when Sylvester was cast John Nathan Turner (DW Producer) was forced to have screen tests made to ensure Sylvester was the best option.....JNT then chose other actors to screen test purposely to make him come across as the best.

As for HPH being cast as The Toymaker....very much looking forward to seeing this. The 60th special(s) are really sounding great fun.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

If NPH is the Celestial Toymaker, it brings up some questions.

Will RTD reference the unmade/novelized "Nightmare Fair" (Interestingly written by former showrunner Graham Williams)
as well as several Audio Adventures?

The novel "Divided Loyalties" (Fifth Doctor) had some revelations. The Decca, a group of young Time Lords including the Doctor,
had encountered the CT before the Doctor left Gallifrey. The CT suggested that the Doctor could have rescued Adric and saved Tremas.
Will the CT remark on this? (Note to Chibnall - the Decca all retained their proper genders)

Has the Toymaker been manipulating events as far back as "Trial of a Time Lord"?

Does the Toymaker have a status comparable to the White/Black Guardian?

It will be interesting to see what RTD does.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

Michael Grade (BBC boss) hated Doctor Who full stop and wanted it axed, but I think during Colin's era the budgets were so low that the whole production suffered severely, which gave Grade even more ammunition even though he created the problem. But yes, he felt that Colin had been miscast in the role and when Sylvester was cast John Nathan Turner (DW Producer) was forced to have screen tests made to ensure Sylvester was the best option.....JNT then chose other actors to screen test purposely to make him come across as the best.

As for HPH being cast as The Toymaker....very much looking forward to seeing this. The 60th special(s) are really sounding great fun.

Indeed Michael Grade was no friend to Doctor Who. I will never understand how the BBC could have allowed a profitable franchise
to lapse into obscurity for most of 1990-2005, largely on the personal agenda of one individual

 

[darkshadows38]

i dunno if he hated Baker i can't remember but for whatever reason Grade Hated Doctor Who with a passion to the point he did end up cancelling it and fans wanted it back, he hated the show so much he slashed the budget cause if you recall the last season which would be Season 22 had a pretty good budget than it was slashed and he cut the budget so much that it was shot on video tape, doctor who was a show that had celebs want to do the show after he brought it back in (1986) i don't think any other celebs did the show i don't think? i could be wrong but it was cause of Michael Grade. John Nathan Turner wanted to leave the show i don't remember which season and Grade would not let him people crack on Turner so much and with good reason don't get me wrong, i don't like him either but if you look at before season 23 i think when he still cared about the show Turner i mean. this is my own opinion or rather when his heart was still in it i meant to say

i have not seen all of 5th doctors era to be fair but i do like it. but the show was i think better than when he was forced to stay the show not only suffered this is my own opinion as i said, when his heart wasn't in it anymore cause Turner was told you leave the show is f... gone it's cancelled it wasn't just the budget that suffered it was everything, i haven't seen all of McCoy's era either but he was a great doctor i think. season 23-26 in short suffered cause i think his heart wasn't in it as much as it used to be. that and he wasn't very good at going after talent from my understanding when it comes to writers, i can think of one writer i don't remember who had been a fan that wrote a number of stories and he many have said was a terrible writer. but ya know when you don't have a good budget for a show like doctor who

it's hard to hire good writers for a good price and no doubt he may have been also forced to hire some writers that just the show could not afford i am guessing. i don't like John Nathan Turner either but i don't think his entire tenure was utter shit either. he did give us a lot of great stories too

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

i dunno if he hated Baker i can't remember but for whatever reason Grade Hated Doctor Who with a passion to the point he did end up cancelling it and fans wanted it back, he hated the show so much he slashed the budget cause if you recall the last season which would be Season 22 had a pretty good budget than it was slashed and he cut the budget so much that it was shot on video tape, doctor who was a show that had celebs want to do the show after he brought it back in (1986) i don't think any other celebs did the show i don't think? i could be wrong but it was cause of Michael Grade. John Nathan Turner wanted to leave the show i don't remember which season and Grade would not let him people crack on Turner so much and with good reason don't get me wrong, i don't like him either but if you look at before season 23 i think when he still cared about the show Turner i mean. this is my own opinion or rather when his heart was still in it i meant to say

i have not seen all of 5th doctors era to be fair but i do like it. but the show was i think better than when he was forced to stay the show not only suffered this is my own opinion as i said, when his heart wasn't in it anymore cause Turner was told you leave the show is f... gone it's cancelled it wasn't just the budget that suffered it was everything, i haven't seen all of McCoy's era either but he was a great doctor i think. season 23-26 in short suffered cause i think his heart wasn't in it as much as it used to be. that and he wasn't very good at going after talent from my understanding when it comes to writers, i can think of one writer i don't remember who had been a fan that wrote a number of stories and he many have said was a terrible writer. but ya know when you don't have a good budget for a show like doctor who

it's hard to hire good writers for a good price and no doubt he may have been also forced to hire some writers that just the show could not afford i am guessing. i don't like John Nathan Turner either but i don't think his entire tenure was utter shit either. he did give us a lot of great stories too

I think MG's girlfriend at the time was Liza Goddard, Colin Baker's ex-wife

 

[Seaviewer]

He's apparently going to be the Celestial Toymaker.

I'm not familiar with the character but by the name alone it sounds like it would suit NPH very well.

 

[pete lashmar]

i dunno if he hated Baker i can't remember but for whatever reason Grade Hated Doctor Who with a passion to the point he did end up cancelling it and fans wanted it back, he hated the show so much he slashed the budget cause if you recall the last season which would be Season 22 had a pretty good budget than it was slashed and he cut the budget so much that it was shot on video tape, doctor who was a show that had celebs want to do the show after he brought it back in (1986) i don't think any other celebs did the show i don't think? i could be wrong but it was cause of Michael Grade. John Nathan Turner wanted to leave the show i don't remember which season and Grade would not let him people crack on Turner so much and with good reason don't get me wrong, i don't like him either but if you look at before season 23 i think when he still cared about the show Turner i mean. this is my own opinion or rather when his heart was still in it i meant to say

i have not seen all of 5th doctors era to be fair but i do like it. but the show was i think better than when he was forced to stay the show not only suffered this is my own opinion as i said, when his heart wasn't in it anymore cause Turner was told you leave the show is f... gone it's cancelled it wasn't just the budget that suffered it was everything, i haven't seen all of McCoy's era either but he was a great doctor i think. season 23-26 in short suffered cause i think his heart wasn't in it as much as it used to be. that and he wasn't very good at going after talent from my understanding when it comes to writers, i can think of one writer i don't remember who had been a fan that wrote a number of stories and he many have said was a terrible writer. but ya know when you don't have a good budget for a show like doctor who

it's hard to hire good writers for a good price and no doubt he may have been also forced to hire some writers that just the show could not afford i am guessing. i don't like John Nathan Turner either but i don't think his entire tenure was utter shit either. he did give us a lot of great stories too

John Nathan Turner was really in an impossible situation, without him Doctor Who would have been cancelled a few years earlier because he was the king of publicity and was the only person at the BBC who believed in it. However, he wanted to move on but there was no one who wanted to take over as Producer, so he stayed. When he was asked to tell Colin that the show would be back....but with a new Doctor, he did it under the proviso that he would also be able to leave. Having told Colin that he would be replaced the BBC double crossed JNT and told him he had to stay with the show.

Colin offered to stay with the show for a few more episodes, do the regeneration and then go - he spoke directly to the big BBC bosses at the time, but they refused and so he didn't film a regeneration.

The flip side of JNT though was that he cared more about the fandom and fame than the show, so would be at conventions all over the world leaving his script editors and staff to do a lot of the pre production stuff - he would also just drop ideas into scripts, telling writers that he wanted The Master involved or that he wanted to film episodes overseas (Amsterdam, Seville)leaving writers having to rework scripts at the last minute.

Eric Saward (script editor) had enough at one point, quit and write a stinging attack on JNT in Starburst magaine - it was the first time anything had been revealed about JNT's tenure as Producer of the show.

So without JNT the show wouldn't have lasted as long as it did, but had he been more interested in the show than the fandom and conventions the show may not have been in a state worthy of cancellation in the first place.

 

[darkshadows38]

well said i agree i belong to a doctor who site and there's a lot of people who cannot stand Eric Saward and say he's an awful writer. you forgot one thing, He Hated more or less Tom Baker.he treated Tom like Dog shit and it pissed him off so much that's why he left he had said it as a threat actually than when he found out they took it as he actually was going to quit he said to himself the hell with it i cannot stand being here another Minute with him or that's my guess on what he said to himself anyways. but had he been treated better by JNT and Baker has said went and apologized to a lot of people cause he did have a big ego back than he admits that. but Baker didn't like the changes either the new theme song he hated the new intro he hated as well. getting rid of K-9 and getting rid of the character Romana as well. i don't think he was to pissed about K-9 but Romana he did get angry i think about.

i do think that going by what Baker has said in the years since i get the impression that had he gotten along with JNT when they started working together his run on the show would have been i think longer than it ended up being. my own opinion of course

 

[darkshadows38]

Colin Baker's Ex Wife really? i wonder if that's why he hated Colin? going by maybe a messy divorce to take a guess maybe that's why he didn't like him and why he thought he was miscast?

 

[pete lashmar]

I feel that Eric Saward was trying to do his very best for the show but was constantly undermined by JNT and scripts suffered because of it. Seward wrote some brilliant stories, he was a great writer and got the script editor's job after writing The Visitation, which is one of my all time favourites. Earthshock is an out and out classic, as are Resurrection/Revelation of the Daleks - his scripts were darker and much more to my taste than some of the other scripts around the same time.

JNT hated using writers who had previous written for the show, Saward fought with him over it because older writers knew the show, they knew the characters and how to sculpt a story, but JNT insisted on using new writers, leaving Seward having to edit, rewrite and babysit them, so he was always against the clock on getting the scripts finished.

Stories like Arc of Infinity and The Two Doctors had been written when JNT insisted on overseas filming, so scripts had to be rushed at the last minute just because JNT wanted to go on a jolly.

Saward also felt that casting an actor as The Doctor (Colin) because he made JNT laugh at a wedding was not the best way to go about casting - and let's not forget JNT's insistance about Colins (awful) costume.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

Not sure if NPH looks more like a magician or Fred Astaire!

 

[darkshadows38]

yeah that outfit is awful, i don't understand that line of thinking JNT had i'm for writers to get their big break on a show they love but if you don't know how to write Doctor who or know the show at all or understand it why bother? when you have the older writers who wrote in the 70's for example they did some bad stories sure there's awful stories in every season of the show's history. but they knew how to write for the show and how to save money, in short when they would write a script this is done for movies anyways so i assume all tv shows do this when they do a version of it than they find out that they don't have to the budget to do what they wanted to happen so they have to rewrite it.

not everyone can do that. there's some 5th doctor stories i like that people f... hate with a passion for example i love The Sensorites from Season 1 i think it was ? it's among my favorites another early one i really love is The Keys of Marius from Season 1. those stories are really hated by fans they say they look too cheap and the sets look awful i don't think about that or try not to for me i don't notice it but than i choose not to see it they look fine to me. but than i also watch a lot of B movies from the 50's for example back when movies were made for as little as $3,000 or $5,000 bucks.

 

[pete lashmar]

yeah that outfit is awful, i don't understand that line of thinking JNT had i'm for writers to get their big break on a show they love but if you don't know how to write Doctor who or know the show at all or understand it why bother? when you have the older writers who wrote in the 70's for example they did some bad stories sure there's awful stories in every season of the show's history. but they knew how to write for the show and how to save money, in short when they would write a script this is done for movies anyways so i assume all tv shows do this when they do a version of it than they find out that they don't have to the budget to do what they wanted to happen so they have to rewrite it.

not everyone can do that. there's some 5th doctor stories i like that people f... hate with a passion for example i love The Sensorites from Season 1 i think it was ? it's among my favorites another early one i really love is The Keys of Marius from Season 1. those stories are really hated by fans they say they look too cheap and the sets look awful i don't think about that or try not to for me i don't notice it but than i choose not to see it they look fine to me. but than i also watch a lot of B movies from the 50's for example back when movies were made for as little as $3,000 or $5,000 bucks.

During series 16 and 17 they always ran out of budget, some of the stories look glorious whilst others are all green screen and dreadful, Graham Williams had a bit of a roller coaster ride as producer, but couldn't control the budgets at all.

Likewise, Warriors of the deep could have been a fantastic story, but the Myrka was downright ridiculous and the lighting was full on glare on a white set, so it looked cheap and very very tacky - that said, watching it with the commentary on is absolutely hilarious from Peter and Janet.

Time-Flight is always panned by fans, but I love it, there's something about it that I just find so re-watchable.

 

[darkshadows38]

oh okay, yeah i enjoy the hell out of Time-Flight i dunno why it gets so much flack that's the one i was thinking of but i was just to lazy to look up the story and i own in it dvd!

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

oh okay, yeah i enjoy the hell out of Time-Flight i dunno why it gets so much flack that's the one i was thinking of but i was just to lazy to look up the story and i own in it dvd!

I thought Time Flight was OK, I thought that its biggest flaw was that the Master's return lacked impact.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

Just a thought

IF NPH is the Celestial Toymaker (note: if RTD was not the producer, I don't know if I would like this casting decision)
did he access the space-time continuum to prevent DT's regeneration (similar to the script for the unmade 30th anniversary show
where Tom Baker's regeneration was prevented)?

If so it would be quite an imaginative story, and maybe undo some of the later not-so-great plots.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

well said i agree i belong to a doctor who site and there's a lot of people who cannot stand Eric Saward and say he's an awful writer. you forgot one thing, He Hated more or less Tom Baker.he treated Tom like Dog shit and it pissed him off so much that's why he left he had said it as a threat actually than when he found out they took it as he actually was going to quit he said to himself the hell with it i cannot stand being here another Minute with him or that's my guess on what he said to himself anyways. but had he been treated better by JNT and Baker has said went and apologized to a lot of people cause he did have a big ego back than he admits that. but Baker didn't like the changes either the new theme song he hated the new intro he hated as well. getting rid of K-9 and getting rid of the character Romana as well. i don't think he was to pissed about K-9 but Romana he did get angry i think about.

i do think that going by what Baker has said in the years since i get the impression that had he gotten along with JNT when they started working together his run on the show would have been i think longer than it ended up being. my own opinion of cours

well said i agree i belong to a doctor who site and there's a lot of people who cannot stand Eric Saward and say he's an awful writer. you forgot one thing, He Hated more or less Tom Baker.he treated Tom like Dog shit and it pissed him off so much that's why he left he had said it as a threat actually than when he found out they took it as he actually was going to quit he said to himself the hell with it i cannot stand being here another Minute with him or that's my guess on what he said to himself anyways. but had he been treated better by JNT and Baker has said went and apologized to a lot of people cause he did have a big ego back than he admits that. but Baker didn't like the changes either the new theme song he hated the new intro he hated as well. getting rid of K-9 and getting rid of the character Romana as well. i don't think he was to pissed about K-9 but Romana he did get angry i think about.

i do think that going by what Baker has said in the years since i get the impression that had he gotten along with JNT when they started working together his run on the show would have been i think longer than it ended up being. my own opinion of course

Maybe I misunderstand your post but I thought Christopher Bidmeade was script editor during Tom Baker's final season, not Eric Saward.
I do think ES thought Colin Baker was not the best choice, and some of the scripts for the ES era were lacking, but ES
was not the main reason. In some cases, nothing was going to save a bad script.

Personally, I thought Colin Baker was a good actor, a good Doctor who was undermined by less than the best writing and direction,
and treated badly by the BBC.

He was miles better than Sylvester McCoy, who I thought lacked the Doctor's compelling presence.
That said, the BBC treated the show so badly in Seasons 23-26, that maybe nothing would have worked.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

Maybe I misunderstand your post but I thought Christopher Bidmeade was script editor during Tom Baker's final season, not Eric Saward.
I do think ES thought Colin Baker was not the best choice, and some of the scripts for the ES era were lacking, but ES
was not the main reason. In some cases, nothing was going to save a bad script.

Personally, I thought Colin Baker was a good actor, a good Doctor who was undermined by less than the best writing and direction,
and treated badly by the BBC.

He was miles better than Sylvester McCoy, who I thought lacked the Doctor's compelling presence.
That said, the BBC treated the show so badly in Seasons 23-26, that maybe nothing would have worked.

The Beeb deliberately scheduled Doctor Who against Coronation Street in the hope that it would kill the show in the ratings and it worked.

 

[pete lashmar]

Maybe I misunderstand your post but I thought Christopher Bidmeade was script editor during Tom Baker's final season, not Eric Saward.
I do think ES thought Colin Baker was not the best choice, and some of the scripts for the ES era were lacking, but ES
was not the main reason. In some cases, nothing was going to save a bad script.

Personally, I thought Colin Baker was a good actor, a good Doctor who was undermined by less than the best writing and direction,
and treated badly by the BBC.

He was miles better than Sylvester McCoy, who I thought lacked the Doctor's compelling presence.
That said, the BBC treated the show so badly in Seasons 23-26, that maybe nothing would have worked.

Yes, Christopher Bidmead was script editor for Tom's final season and then left, Eric Saward then took over because JNT loved the script for The Visitation, not sure if there was an intrim script editor between the two though.

I'm not a fan of Colin or Sylvester as The Doctor, I can watch now and appreciate the better stories but at the time I really didn't like them,. That said, I maybe had grown out of love with the show at that point, just my age and finding boys and pubs.

 

[darkshadows38]

oh 1stly i never can remember who the editor is for which season but when i was talking about pretty much any editor for any of the seasons of the show. i wasn't thinking a certain one & i like Christophe Bidmeade as well Eric Saward did i spell that right? i mentioned him not really on which seasons he was the editor but i just meant during his tenure as a writer how many fans can't stand him and think he's an awful writer and some love his work and i doubt they love all of it but they enjoy some of his stuff he did for doctor who at least.