Good Ol' Duke: The John Wayne Thread

[ClassyCo]

John Wayne is one actor I've always been aware of. As far back as I can remember, I watched countless of his Westerns on television with my father. I cannot tell you how many times I saw EL DORADO and McLINTOCK! when I was growing up. It seemed as if those movies were always on TV somewhere.

The Duke (who was born Marion Robert Morrison in 1907) was one of the biggest and most bankable movie stars the film industry has ever seen. His presence in a film, especially Westerns and war movies, almost guaranteed that a movie would be a hit at the box office. His career spanned from the 1920s into the American New Wave, and he appeared in 179 film and television productions. He was number one in box office popularity a total of four times, and he was listed annually as one of Hollywood's top ten moneymaking stars a total of 25 times, from 1949 to 1973.

His movies THE BIG TRAIL (1930) and STAGECOACH (1939) were fundamental in ushering in the Western as a legitimate A-film genre. He later won the Academy Award for Best Actor for his performance in TRUE GRIT (1969). Wayne also appeared in a variety of other film genres, ranging from the war picture, adventure films, and the occasional romantic comedy. He was a frequenter of television after the medium became popular in the early-'50s, appearing on such ratings-winners as I LOVE LUCY, GUNSMOKE, and THE BEVERLY HILLBILLIES.

Any fans of The Duke lurking out there?
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[DallasFanForever]

I like The Duke. I was never a big fan of Westerns to be honest but I’ll never deny his contribution to making them as popular as they were. He was a huge star with a long legacy.

 

[Crimson]

Not a big fan, to be honest. As an actor, I tend to only like his at the beginning of his career and then at the tail end. I find him appealing at the early stage of his film career, before the Wayne-mannerisms were set in stone; he was charming and breezy, like a cut rate Joel McCrea. His three films in the early 40s with Marlene Dietrich are a lot of fun. I also like some of his last Westerns, such as THE SHOOTIST. I have virtually no interest in his work during his peak years, from the late 40s through the 60s.

I don't generally put much thought into a performer's personal life, but it's a bit harder to put that aside with Wayne. It's hard to reconcile is All-American jingoism with his failure to serve in WWII. The apologist justifications for this always seem flimsy to me; the YMRT podcast did an entire episode on it, and still didn't come up with a solid reason for Wayne not enlisting. Worse, his social and political views were grossly reactionary even for his era.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

It's hard to reconcile is All-American jingoism with his failure to serve in WWII. The apologist justifications for this always seem flimsy to me; the YMRT podcast did an entire episode on it, and still didn't come up with a solid reason for Wayne not enlisting. Worse, his social and political views were grossly reactionary even for his era.

The AFI list pushed him way down amongst actors, ridiculous given his box office primacy, so that had to be politically motivated -- vile though his politics were. Katharine Hepburn was in love with him, proving yet again that what feministicized women really want is different than what they say they want.

 

[Angela Channing]

I'm not a fan of John Wayne. John Wayne was a great star but not a great actor. I always found his performances to be of one note which was basically playing himself. You could only imagine him in a certain type of role as he didn't the range to play anything that strayed far from his own personality.

I recently watched Red River (1948) and I was surprised how little nuance or light and shade there was in his performance. He gave the impression he was reciting words rather than acting and becoming the character he was playing. However, he had a strong screen presence and a lot of charisma.

And don't get me started on his racist and homophobic views.

 

[Crimson]

The AFI list pushed him way down amongst actors, ridiculous given his box office primacy, so that had to be politically motivated

Possibly true, but the only actor on the list who seems unworthy of ranking over Wayne is Gregory Peck IMO. I don't know what the AFI's criteria was, but I'd be hard pressed arguing against any of those other 12 guys.

 

[ClassyCo]

Possibly true, but the only actor on the list who seems unworthy of ranking over Wayne is Gregory Peck IMO. I don't know what the AFI's criteria was, but I'd be hard pressed arguing against any of those other 12 guys.

View attachment 30574

Outside of Wayne, the only ones I have considerable exposure to on their list is Cary Grant, Clark Gable, and James Stewart.

 

[Crimson]

There's always a degree of capriciousness to lists like this. Liz should probably rank higher than #7 on the ladies side. I think each of the guys -- except, maybe, Peck -- is as iconic as Wayne. I mean, if Victor Mature or someone ranked higher than Wayne, I'd cry foul.

 

[Angela Channing]

Possibly true, but the only actor on the list who seems unworthy of ranking over Wayne is Gregory Peck IMO. I don't know what the AFI's criteria was, but I'd be hard pressed arguing against any of those other 12 guys.

View attachment 30574

Personally, I additionally would have put Paul Muni, William Holden, Montgomery Clift, Sidney Poitier and Edward G. Robinson above John Wayne.

 

[Crimson]

Objectively, I think Wayne belongs on the list and reasonably high; he was one of the biggest stars of the era without dispute. Without knowing AFI's criteria, hard to say why he ranks as he does. It's clearly not heavily weighted towards box office, else Betty Grable would have been included with the ladies. I assume the list is based nebulously on "legacy" -- and John Wayne's legacy has been tarnished. He chose to live his life as a service avoiding, red baiting, self-avowed white supremacist. So, his legacy took a hit. It's no more or less unfair than Crawford's legacy being damaged by Christina and Faye.

 

[Angela Channing]

Objectively, I think Wayne belongs on the list and reasonably high; he was one of the biggest stars of the era without dispute. Without knowing AFI's criteria, hard to say why he ranks as he does. It's clearly not heavily weighted towards box office, else Betty Grable would have been included with the ladies. I assume the list is based nebulously on "legacy" -- and John Wayne's legacy has been tarnished. He chose to live his life as a service avoiding, red baiting, self-avowed white supremacist. So, his legacy took a hit. It's no more or less unfair than Crawford's legacy being damaged by Christina and Faye.

I have a feeling the list is based on star quality, public affection and being a box office (and headline) draw rather than acting ability. On that basis, John Wayne would feature quite highly in any list but wouldn't in a list based purely on how good an actor he was.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Personally, I additionally would have put Paul Muni, William Holden, Montgomery Clift, Sidney Poitier and Edward G. Robinson above John Wayne.

So you are basing it on politics.

On that basis, John Wayne would feature quite highly in any list but wouldn't in a list based purely on how good an actor he was.

But it's not based on how good an actor they are. Unless you think Marilyn out-acted everybody except Kate and Bette.

Liz should probably rank higher than #7 on the ladies side.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

So, his legacy took a hit. It's no more or less unfair than Crawford's legacy being damaged by Christina and Faye.

But Crawford wasn't pushed out of the Top 10, and her box office couldn't compare to Wayne's.... well, whose could?

 

[Angela Channing]

So you are basing it on politics.

No, I'm basing it on acting ability. If I was basing it on politics, John Wayne wouldn't be in the list at all.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I just don't see how Hollywood's top box office draw could be pushed out of the Top 10, not that I'm a big fan. Back in the day, Hollywood was largely right wing, including some of the guys on the AFI list, but their politics wasn't part of their image as it was for The Duke.

 

[Crimson]

With the Academy's recent apology to Sacheen Littlefeather, the urban legend that it took six security men to hold John Wayne back from pummeling her is again making the rounds. This has always struck me as dubious and highly exaggerated, at best. Finally, someone did some exhausting research to debunk the claim:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1560739943093534720

 

[ginnyfan]

Never heard of that story, but I'm glad it's been debunked. Too bad the mainstream media and general public will never hear of it or accept it. Woke culture adores destroying Hollywood icons and Wayne, of course, is their favorite target.

It's also sad and disappointing that Sacheen Littlefeather has been spreading this lie for decades.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

With the Academy's recent apology to Sacheen Littlefeather, the urban legend that it took six security men to hold John Wayne back from pummeling her is again making the rounds. This has always struck me as dubious and highly exaggerated, at best. Finally, someone did some exhausting research to debunk the claim:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1560739943093534720

The Duke's team probably started the rumor himself.

I know somebody who slept with Wayne's son, Patrick (recently passed) when the ridiculous "Viet Nam" movie, THE GREEN BERETS, was being filmed. John Wayne knew about it.

John Wayne was very different from his image.

 

[Crimson]

The Duke's team probably started the rumor himself.

Possible, of course, but the story as told took shape long after Wayne had passed; and "the Duke wanted to beat up a woman" isn't much of a flex for his estate to have started as a rumor after the fact.

It's also sad and disappointing that Sacheen Littlefeather has been spreading this lie for decades.

In fairness to her, she's repeated the story that's been told. She was on stage giving the speech; she would have had know way of knowing what John Wayne was or wasn't doing in the wings while she was on stage.

 

[ClassyCo]

I have the book called "Leading Men", written by Julie Welch and Louise Brody, published in 1985. I just recently dug it out of storage and flipped through its pages. I was reminded in my past disappointment with said book.

Wayne is relegated to just a paragraph and is represented with one of the worst pictures imaginable.

The paragraph:

"Wayne starred in some of the greatest Westerns ever made, notably the John Ford trilogy, FORT APACHE, SHE WORE A YELLOW RIBBON, and RIO GRANDE, and became the USA's most historically important star. He is usually remembered as hard-fighting and sexy in a rugged, authoritarian way, offering tough gallantry to all women on principle. However, in his best-known starring role, in STAGECOACH, he was in the sensitive pin-up mould, and in THE SEARCHERS, later on in his career, he was ruthlessly unforgiving and ready to kill. A big but graceful, ugly-beautiful man, he found a good match in strong leading ladies like Marlene Dietrich, in SEVEN SINNERS (1940)."

The picture, I'm unable to attach for some reason. Google search images "John Wayne Conflict 1936" and you'll see the prizefighter picture the book uses.

I mean, the book talks more about Leslie Howard and even Elvis as being strong leading men. It feels like the writers deliberately shafted Wayne, who was virtually the biggest box office star in America for probably 15+ years, just because they wanted to.