Great Kate or Bitchy Bette...?

Who was The Queen of The Movies?


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Crimson

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Gail Patrick was a beautiful woman, and she was completely under-utilized, although she does have some exceptionally good roles in a some well-respected films.

My favorite Gail Patrick movie is LOVE CRAZY (1941); also my favorite of the Myrna Loy-William Powell films. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it. More slapsticky than their normal films, but very funny. Gail is again the secondary female, but she gets to play a much more likable character than typical. Shame she didn't get much of a chance to be a top-tier star, because she had all the requisites. Jack Carson is also in LOVE CRAZY; he was a great addition to any film.
 

Crimson

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To Hepburns' credit, she once described her own cinematic appeal as "all charm and tricks" in comparison to Spencer Tracy.

Yes, Kate seemed very self-aware -- which makes her rare turns into pretentiousness all the more puzzling. Conversely, it's curious that Davis -- a far more versatile and technically accomplished actress -- steered clear of 'heavy' drama. I don't think she ever touched Shakespeare and mostly skirted the serious dramatists of her day other than a brief, and not especially well-received, foray into Tennessee Williams.

And poor Maurice Evans; both Orson Welles and Marlon Brando called him a bad actor. He seemed capable of playing a normal person (ROSEMARY'S BABY) or even a normal monkey (PLANET OF THE APES) okay, but his Shakespeare work that I've seen was atrocious: all empty, grand theatricality. Some of that may have been intentional; his aim seemed to be classics-for-rubes. And to his credit, he seemed happy to send up his own hamminess on BEWITCHED.
 

Willie Oleson

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Just watched a few Joan Crawford clips on YouTube, and I was surprised to see how cool and lovely she was in some of her older movies. Maybe not an ethereal, classic beauty, but also not the "dragon lady" look that usually springs to mind when she's mentioned in a forum discussions.

Those videoclips made me think of someone else (not Faye) but at first I couldn't put my finger on it.
Eventually I realized it was British actress Susan Gilmore, who - for whatever mysterious reason - never became a real household name.
But she also had that cool, smart look and strong screen presence (she's still alive afaik, but I assume she looks a bit different now).
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Crimson

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I was surprised to see how cool and lovely she was in some of her older movies. Maybe not an ethereal, classic beauty, but also not the "dragon lady" look that usually springs to mind when she's mentioned in a forum discussions.

The modern image of Joan Crawford has very little Joan and a whole lot to do with Faye Dunaway. Dunaway took Christina Crawford's memoirs, filtered/amplified it through one or two very atypical Crawford performances and looks from the 50s (TORCH SONG; QUEEN BEE) and came up with a drag queen's delight. Crawford's image probably deserved to be tarnished by the book MOMMIE DEAREST, but the movie might be one of the most egregious and effective character assassinations of all time. The film not only irrevocably altered public perception of her image, it seemed to cause a collective false memory of her as a screen villain. The majority of her actual screen work would put her closer to Olivia De Havilland than an 80s soap bitch.
 

ClassyCo

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Referring to the original question, I voted for Bette Davis. I have enjoyed many of Katharine Hepburn's movies, but I lean more towards Davis as being the better actress and perhaps more versatile. Out of all of the names I've seen mentioned, however, I have to say that I prefer Joan Crawford over all of them. As for Barbara Stanwyck, I don't care for her at all.
It's been over six years since I wrote this, and so many things have changed since then.

As of this post, I think Hepburn and Davis might tie if I were to rank them. Hepburn is stellar in screwball comedy, probably the best actress I've seen tackle such material in Classic Hollywood; BRINGING UP BABY (1938) will always be one of my favorite comedies. Her later work, like SUMMERTIME (1955) and the TV movie LOVE AMONG THE RUINS (1975), are equally good, giving me an appreciation for the consistency of Hepburn's work, even as she aged and some of her peers fell into obscurity.

Davis had the biggest hits and showed the most versatility during Hollywood's Golden Age. I've always had a soft spot for JEZEBEL (1938), and ALL ABOUT EVE (1950) is hands down one of my favorite movies ever. Davis dove into "grande dame guignol" in the 1960s and I'm glad she did, because I wouldn't liked to have missed BABY JANE (1962), CHARLOTTE (1964), or THE NANNY (1965). Davis employs a theatricality in her roles that I find intriguing, even if it hasn't aged very well and places her firmly in an acting style long out of fashion.

Crawford has always held a place in my heart. MILDRED PIERCE (1945) is a great film, to me at least, as are many of her Warner Brothers movies in the mid-to-late-40s and early-50s. I give Crawford credit for one thing: she changed with the times, finding movies with "audience identification" and giving her public what they wanted from her. She was, first a foremost, a star and she was devoted to that image and life. When on her A-game, Crawford could be a very good actress.

My opinion has changed the most on Stanwyck. After years of flat despising her, my view changed after watching DOUBLE INDEMNITY (1944) and SORRY, WRONG NUMBER (1948). While Stanwyck might've lacked the mainstream prestige of Hepburn, Davis, and Crawford, she possessed a versatility greater than any of them. She floated easily between genres and played a wide variety of characters.

See, time changes things.
 
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Seaviewer

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As of this post, I think Hepburn and Davis might tie if I were to rank them.
The poll does have them tied at the moment with 6 votes each - and one outlier who chose the Liz Taylor option.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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It's been over six years since I wrote this, and so many things have changed since then.

As of this post, I think Hepburn and Davis might tie if I were to rank them. Hepburn is stellar in screwball comedy, probably the best actress I've seen tackle such material in Classic Hollywood; BRINGING UP BABY (1938) will always be one of my favorite comedies. Her later work, like SUMMERTIME (1955) and the TV movie LOVE AMONG THE RUINS (1975), are equally good, giving me an appreciation for the consistency of Hepburn's work, even as she aged and some of her peers fell into obscurity.

Davis had the biggest hits and showed the most versatility during Hollywood's Golden Age. I've always had a soft spot for JEZEBEL (1938), and ALL ABOUT EVE (1950) is hands down one of my favorite movies ever. Davis dove into "grande dame guignol" in the 1960s and I'm glad she did, because I wouldn't liked to have missed BABY JANE (1962), CHARLOTTE (1964), or THE NANNY (1965). Davis employs a theatricality in her roles that I find intriguing, even if it hasn't aged very well and places her firmly in an acting style long out of fashion.

Crawford has always held a place in my heart. MILDRED PIERCE (1945) is a great film, to me at least, as are many of her Warner Brothers movies in the mid-to-late-40s and early-50s. I give Crawford credit for one thing: she changed with the times, finding movies with "audience identification" and giving her public what they wanted from her. She was, first a foremost, a star and she was devoted to that image and life. When on her A-game, Crawford could be a very good actress.

My opinion has changed the most on Stanwyck. After years of flat despising her, my view changed after watching DOUBLE INDEMNITY (1944) and SORRY, WRONG NUMBER (1948). While Stanwyck might've lacked the mainstream prestige of Hepburn, Davis, and Crawford, she possessed a versatility greater than any of them. She floated easily between genres and played a wide variety of characters.

See, time changes things.

You once "despised" her? And now you think she's the most versatile?

Did you despise her versatility? Or was she versatile in her despicability?
 

Snarky Oracle!

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Kate and Bette:

Pure classumness doesn't create quite the level stardom unless you throw in a dose of the slutty-bitch. It just doesn't. But if she hangs in there, remaining utterly tasteful can pay off long-term.

Sort of the reverse of the "politicians, ugly buildings and whores get respectable if they last long enough" sentiment. In the movies, the skanky-monster trope can bring you big box-office and media coverage, but good breeding and polished restraint (and critics' desire to align themselves with it) can permit you to cross the finish line, Parkinsonian smirk held high as the Tasteful Tortoise, while the Harlot Harridan hacks-and-coughs her Marlboro sputum and collapses before reaching the end of the race.

Too many metaphors?

Who's better remembered today: Loretta Young or her more overtly pathological twin sister, Joan Crawford? Sure, Crawford was huge back in the day and she played a lot of ho(e)s, on screen and in life. But which one had a daughter who wrote an ugly book about her?? (Okay, bad example).

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ClassyCo

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You once "despised" her? And now you think she's the most versatile?

Did you despise her versatility? Or was she versatile in her despicability?
Well, "despised" is a bad choice of words, which I frequently do.

I should say I just didn't like Stanwyck. I had only seen small pieces of her work (CLASH BY NIGHT; THE COLBYS; some of BIG VALLEY) and I just didn't "get" the fandom surrounding her. She wasn't my cup-of-tea, so I gave her movies a rest for years. When I finally decided to watch DOUBLE INDEMNITY and SORRY, WRONG NUMBER (two movies my wife and her sister got me for my birthday one year because they were interested in them), I enjoyed those movies thoroughly. They are two prime examples of Stanwyck.

I've seen some of her comedies in clips, and I want to see them in their entirety. What I've seen, though, leads me to the conclusion that she was better at comedy than Davis and Crawford.

I didn't despise Stanwyck's versatility, I just didn't ride the Stanwyck fandom bandwagon. I just hadn't seen enough of her films to judge her fairly. I was younger and bent on fussing about something.
 

Caryscott

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Kate and Bette:

Pure classumness doesn't create quite the level stardom unless you throw in a dose of the slutty-bitch. It just doesn't. But if she hangs in there, remaining utterly tasteful can pay off long-term.

Sort of the reverse of the "politicians, ugly buildings and whores get respectable if they last long enough" sentiment. In the movies, the skanky-monster trope can bring you big box-office and media coverage, but good breeding and polished restraint (and critics' desire to align themselves with it) can permit you to cross the finish line, Parkinsonian smirk held high as the Tasteful Tortoise, while the Harlot Harridan hacks-and-coughs her Marlboro sputum and collapses before reaching the end of the race.

Too many metaphors?

Who's better remembered today: Loretta Young or her more overtly pathological twin sister, Joan Crawford? Sure, Crawford was huge back in the day and she played a lot of ho(e)s, on screen and in life. But which one had a daughter who wrote an ugly book about her?? (Okay, bad example).

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But what endures beyond Mildred Pierce? More the later harridan roles and her personal reputation than Grand Hotel. For how long her career was it is an extremely weak filmography. I’m assuming the Young comparison is rhetorical. Who remembers “The Farmer’s Daughter”? “The Bishop’s Wife” is probably her most enduring film. Judy Lewis’ book was fair but hardly a rave review for Loretta. The successful tv converts who mostly left their screen careers in their prime have found time has been pretty kind. Their series mostly disappeared and they were mostly remembered in their prime. So and so who didn’t “do” television mostly made crappy movies through the sixties and seventies that often endured on television more than their early films in the 8O’s and 90’s. The long game might favour them as those late films are harder and harder to find though Crawford and Davis seem fairly defined buy their late era careers.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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But what endures beyond Mildred Pierce? More the later harridan roles and her personal reputation than Grand Hotel. For how long her career was it is an extremely weak filmography. I’m assuming the Young comparison is rhetorical. Who remembers “The Farmer’s Daughter”? “The Bishop’s Wife” is probably her most enduring film. Judy Lewis’ book was fair but hardly a rave review for Loretta. The successful tv converts who mostly left their screen careers in their prime have found time has been pretty kind. Their series mostly disappeared and they were mostly remembered in their prime. So and so who didn’t “do” television mostly made crappy movies through the sixties and seventies that often endured on television more than their early films in the 8O’s and 90’s. The long game might favour them as those late films are harder and harder to find though Crawford and Davis seem fairly defined buy their late era careers.


MILDRED PIERCE was the beginning of Crawford's best era -- her Warner period. But the kinds of audiences who don't remember those films probably don't know MILDRED PIERCE either.
 

Caryscott

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MILDRED PIERCE was the beginning of Crawford's best era -- her Warner period. But the kinds of audiences who don't remember those films probably don't know MILDRED PIERCE either.
Mildred is mostly a one off. Humouresqe is good. She did get nominated for Possessed but not really a classic. I like Flamingo Road but not a classic and that’s pretty much it. I think The Damned Don’t Cry is less than great. She’s a 45+ model? Miscast. Her seven years at WB were roughly 44-51. Two great films, 2 Best Actress nominations. Agreed it is her best period but that’s kind of the problem.
 

ClassyCo

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Mildred is mostly a one off. Humouresqe is good. She did get nominated for Possessed but not really a classic. I like Flamingo Road but not a classic and that’s pretty much it. I think The Damned Don’t Cry is less than great. She’s a 45+ model? Miscast. Her seven years at WB were roughly 44-51. Two great films, 2 Best Actress nominations. Agreed it is her best period but that’s kind of the problem.
To each their own, I guess. I think Crawford was really in her element at Warner Brothers in the late-40s and early-50s. She was still attractive, and she seemed to allow herself to relax on-screen some. There isn't as much movie stat gesturing you see in her MGM films from the 1930s, and she even seems more like an actress than just a star.

But the movies aren't to everyone's tastes. I find MILDRED PIERCE to be Crawford's best film, or at least my favorite, and I think she's also good in HUMORESQUE and POSSESSED. Even the movies where she was arguably miscast -- FLAMINGO ROAD and THE DAMNED DON'T CRY -- she's still good. But I'd say that's part of the reason they work, if primarily on a campier level.

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Caryscott

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To each their own, I guess. I think Crawford was really in her element at Warner Brothers in the late-40s and early-50s. She was still attractive, and she seemed to allow herself to relax on-screen some. There isn't as much movie stat gesturing you see in her MGM films from the 1930s, and she even seems more like an actress than just a star.

But the movies aren't to everyone's tastes. I find MILDRED PIERCE to be Crawford's best film, or at least my favorite, and I think she's also good in HUMORESQUE and POSSESSED. Even the movies where she was arguably miscast -- FLAMINGO ROAD and THE DAMNED DON'T CRY -- she's still good. But I'd say that's part of the reason they work, if primarily on a campier level.

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Except for Bette Davis Warner’s wasn’t really a great studio for women. Warner’s had an eye for female talent but with the odd exception never knew what do with it once it emerged. DeHavilland, Wyman, Parker and Day all faired better on loan or after they departed. Vehicles like Johnny Belinda, Caged and Calamity Jane were more the exception than the rule. I don’t think Crawford escaped the reality they all faced. I think Mildred Pierce is her best film too, which isn’t really high praise. I like it a lot more than that. I think Flamingo Road is very watchable but The Damned Don’t Cry eludes me. Her filmography however is about as strong as Wyman’s who was only a leading lady for a decade. I like Crawford in the Warners period too, particularly the two Curtiz films. I still haven’t seen Possessed but I like Curtis Bernhardt. That the concept of the “women’s film” as a genre isn’t widely accepted has hurt the assessment of his work. I appreciate your insight.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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Except for Bette Davis Warner’s wasn’t really a great studio for women. Warner’s had an eye for female talent but with the odd exception never knew what do with it once it emerged. DeHavilland, Wyman, Parker and Day all faired better on loan or after they departed. Vehicles like Johnny Belinda, Caged and Calamity Jane were more the exception than the rule. I don’t think Crawford escaped the reality they all faced. I think Mildred Pierce is her best film too, which isn’t really high praise. I like it a lot more than that. I think Flamingo Road is very watchable but The Damned Don’t Cry eludes me. Her filmography however is about as strong as Wyman’s who was only a leading lady for a decade. I like Crawford in the Warners period too, particularly the two Curtiz films. I still haven’t seen Possessed but I like Curtis Bernhardt. That the concept of the “women’s film” as a genre isn’t widely accepted has hurt the assessment of his work. I appreciate your insight.

Oh, I loved POSSESSED. Some people feel Warners was great for women because it allowed them to do the tough stuff usually reserved for the men at other studios.
 

ginnyfan

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I saw The Lion in the Winter (1968) for the first time today and Hepburn really is outstanding in this, this is one of those very much deserved Oscar wins, but that could be said for all of her Oscars. I expected a more dramatic, affected performance that she was sometimes known for, but she actually toned it down, for such a theatrical movie, and hit all the perfect notes. It's amazing the run she had in the late 60s with Guess Who's Coming to Dinner and Lion, especially when you take the wider context of changing Hollywood, counterculture etc.

 

Crimson

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I expected a more dramatic, affected performance that she was sometimes known for, but she actually toned it down, for such a theatrical movie, and hit all the perfect note

I said recently that TLIW isn't Kate's best film, but it's the film that's best suited for her. It looks like a stuffy prestige picture, but it's really a witty comedy with rapid fire repartee. And yes, it's remarkable that Kate hit such a stride in the mid-60s that carried to the early-80s. At a time when her peers were retiring, slumming or coasting on TV, Kate was triumphant. It's why she usually ranks above Davis and the others in rankings.
 
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