Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

[Seaviewer]

I don’t recall watching anything in which Mary Frann has appeared

Mary Frann made a more than acceptable substitute for Betty Buckley in the first Eight Is Enough reunion move.

 

[Chris2]

Mary Frann was a fine performer and she had good chemistry with Bob Newhart. But she wasn’t a comic actress like Suzanne Pleshette was. Carlene Watkins from ”Bob“ had the opposite problem; she was a good comic actress but had little chemistry with Newhart. Pleshette had both qualities, so the “Bob Newhart” writers were able to mine a lot of story and laughs from Bob/Emily.

But the “Newhart” writers couldn’t lean on the Dick/Joanna relationship for laughs and had to turn elsewhere. Which is why the supporting cast went through changes in the early years of the show, and why they had to lean too heavily on Stephanie/Michael once the cast settled in.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

Mary Frann made a more than acceptable substitute for Betty Buckley in the first Eight Is Enough reunion move.

Mary Frann was underrated.
Naturally, we all know that Suzanne Pleshette was great in Bob Newhart's previous show,
and no on was going to be as iconic.
Mary Frann's character was more of a "straight man" type, and she couldn't show her entire range.
But it worked in the show, and it made the show even better

 

[Crimson]

Since I dusted the book off its shelf, I've been reading through about the early production of MTM. It may seem like the show hit the ground running from the first episode, but those behind the scenes had much less confidence they were making a good show. Some tidbits:

Rhoda was considered very unlikeable early on, leading to uncertainty about the character. It was suggested to make Bess fond of Rhoda so that the audience would see the character through the little girl's eyes.

An early indication of low confidence in the show came when veteran director John Rich left the production. He had worked with Mary for years on THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW, but told the producers of MTM that they seemed to be making something that was "just OK" ; he had expected more from Mary. Instead he joined Norman Lear's developing ALL IN THE FAMILY, which he suspected would be a flop but was at least "outrageous".

Jay Sandrich, who had directed the short lived HE & SHE (a partial inspiration for MTM) was brought in to direct. Sandrich looked at other contemporaneous 3-camera sitcoms and disliked how the actors seemed to be yelling at each other, because they were playing to the audience. Although MTM also used the 3-camera method, Sandrich directed the actors to pretend they were making a movie. Thus, MTM avoided having the deafening tone of other sitcoms of the era.

Angus Duncan, who played Mary's ex-boyfriend in the first episode, disliked re-writes so much that he threw his script on the ground. At the end of filming, he asked if his character could be recurring, to which the producers said "thanks but no thanks".

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Rhoda was considered very unlikeable early on, leading to uncertainty about the character. It was suggested to make Bess fond of Rhoda so that the audience would see the character through the little girl's eyes.

Apparently, the studio audience hated the first shooting of the pilot (there was a bomb threat, the AC was out, and the audience were afraid for poor Mary because of Rhoda's caustic first scene). No one laughed and Mary rode him in tears, her husband, Grant Tinker -- who had put the entire production together -- called Brooks & Burns and said, "fix it!" (Tinker joked later that "fix it" meant absolutely nothing and was no help at all).

Script supervisor Marjorie Mullen, who'd also worked on THE DICK VAN DYKE SHOW, recommended little Bess advocate for Rhoda, Bess telling Mary that Rhoda was really a terrific person. Thus allowing the audience to view Rhoda in a different context than simply "mean".

Otherwise, there were supposedly no changes. And the second night they re-shot the pilot, the audience roared with laughter. The test audiences later still hated it, calling Mary "a loser" because she was single at 30, and uncomfortable that there were "two jews" in the cast. The network had similar concerns, assuming their great star, Mary Tyler Moore, was going to be brought down by a disastrous production company, with "awful" scripts that were character-based and structurally unrecognizable from '60s sitcom scripts which were line/punchline/line/punchline, etc...

But CBS had a 13-episode commitment for the show, so they decided to bury it in a dead-end timeslot on Tuesday night, initially scheduled against MOD SQUAD (which was #1 in the ratings that summer).

Ethel Winant, the casting director for CBS, however, loved the show and its early scripts, and agreed to cast it. She found Asner, Leachman and a completely unknown Valerie Harper whom Winant had seen in an off-Broadway play (whom she had to scramble to find, as Harper belonged to no guild whatsoever). As Allan Burns said, Winant defended the series "almost to her detriment" to the button-down all-male brass at the network who universally hated it.

Then, network consultant wunderkind, Fred Silverman, was so impressed when he screened the finished pilot -- edited and scored, with the opening titles -- that he called New York in the middle of the night and told the CBS brass that they needed to move MTM to Saturday nights (just before MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE), or this great new show was going to be lost (which had been CBS's intention). In an era when fall schedules were set and adhered to months in advance, the advertizers apoplectic over any last minute (or even last month) changes.

Jay Sandrich, who had directed the short lived HE & SHE (a partial inspiration for MTM) was brought in to direct. Sandrich looked at other contemporaneous 3-camera sitcoms and disliked how the actors seemed to be yelling at each other, because they were playing to the audience. Although MTM also used the 3-camera method, Sandrich directed the actors to pretend they were making a movie. Thus, MTM avoided having the deafening tone of other sitcoms of the

Although it seemed to take them about a year to rein it in, as the first season indeed has that "too loud" '60s sitcom delivery. Not that I mind very much, but I'm glad they subdued it pretty quickly.

BTW: Joan Darling, who five year later directed "Chuckles the Clown," was almost cast as Rhoda before they were able to locate Harper.


Ms. Winant who, along with Fred Silverman, saved the show:

 

[AndyB2008]

I liked Bill Daily in both I Dream of Jeannie and The Bob Newhart Show but I agree that he was not funny in a central role. He was best as a confounding annoyance to the leads. He starred as a vet in a sitcom called Starting from Scratch which just falls flat. He's overshadowed by Nita Talbot as his wise-cracking assistant.

Starting From Scratch was later remade for British TV as Close to Home, with Paul Nicholas and Jane Briers in the Bill Daily and Nita Talbot roles.

Angharad Rees played the Connie Stevens role and Lucy Benjamin and Andrew Read played the Heidi Helmer and Jason Marin roles. (While Jason Marin was the one to be successful from Starting from Scratch due to his role as Flounder in the Little Mermaid, Lucy Benjamin was the one to be successful from Close to Home).

Close to Home was slightly successful than Starting from Scratch, but LWT weren't impressed with the ratings as the show was retooled for Series 2.

Brian Cooke stepped down as head writer (although he continued to be credited as creator) and a new writing team came in. Stephen Frost was dropped from the cast, Pippa Guard came in as a love interest for Paul Nicholas's character, and Jane Briers got her role diminished so they could concentrate on the Pippa Guard romance.

The opening and closing credits were given a revamp too.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

Mary Frann was a fine performer and she had good chemistry with Bob Newhart. But she wasn’t a comic actress like Suzanne Pleshette was. Carlene Watkins from ”Bob“ had the opposite problem; she was a good comic actress but had little chemistry with Newhart. Pleshette had both qualities, so the “Bob Newhart” writers were able to mine a lot of story and laughs from Bob/Emily.

But the “Newhart” writers couldn’t lean on the Dick/Joanna relationship for laughs and had to turn elsewhere. Which is why the supporting cast went through changes in the early years of the show, and why they had to lean too heavily on Stephanie/Michael once the cast settled in.

I tend to agree. Suzanne Pleshette is so iconic and so wonderful as an actress, that it is difficult to replicate her chemistry with Bob Newhart.
I thought Mary Frann was a great co-star, too. Maybe because she was in so many scenes with BN as the Inn's co-owner (as opposed to BN's
office scenes) that the supporting characters were more utilized (IMHO) in the show.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Season Three

As I’ve wrapped up another season this is an obligatory check-in really. I don’t feel I have much to say about it, but it’s mostly more of the same which is no bad thing.

I feel the tone has become a tad broader with this season. This works in large part because it seems to come from a kind of confidence or comfort within the cast, and also because it’s balanced with a willingness to address topics that feel more grounded and semi-dramatic.

There’s a recurring theme of scenarios where we see characters dealing with low self-esteem: Murray’s depression. Rhoda struggling to cope with success from winning a beauty contest. Jerry Van Dyke’s character’s wish to broaden his scope beyond being Chuckles The Clown, leading to painfully bad stand-up. Georgette’s people-pleasing. Even Lou’s emotional (and possible actual) infidelity with his new boss. In addition this season has given us an example of a non-stereotypical gay character whose homosexuality isn’t there for cheap laughs. I’d imagine this to be one of the first such examples on television (Number 96’s Don Finlayson had been around for almost a year by this point and was a recurring character to boot, but that’s a different genre).

I’d say Georgette perhaps embodies the different tone at this point. Up to this point, Ted’s been the most caricature-ish character with most others staying comparably in-check. But Georgette with her funny voice and almost one-dimensional niceness is entering the same territory. There are a few saving graces here. Firstly, it could be argued that Ted needed someone as cartoony as he is to partner up with. Secondly, the niceness has been acknowledged as something that frustrates other characters as much as it could the viewer. Finally there’s Georgia Engel’s performance, which gives the character a vulnerability as well as keeping her likeable.

We’ve now met all four of Mary and Rhoda’s parents, and it’s interesting to see the similarities in the dynamics. Both have critical or controlling mothers and more placid fathers who are also kept on a short leash by their wives. Nanette Fabray has done a nice job of making Mary’s mother a passive-aggressive nightmare.

With Season Four just around the corner, I’m already dreading the exit of Rhoda who is the best thing about Mary’s home life and an essential part of the series. At this point, I’ve shifted my position on the spinoff and would be up for watching it if the opportunity arose, which it probably won’t since it seems difficult to buy on DVD round these parts (the first season is on YouTube but even if I could reconcile the questionable legality life is just too short to watch headache-inducing poor quality uploads). In better news, my next episode sees the first appearance of Sue Ann.

I’ll probably dive into Season Four in the next week or so.

 

[Crimson]

I’d say Georgette perhaps embodies the different tone at this point. Up to this point, Ted’s been the most caricature-ish character with most others staying comparably in-check. But Georgette with her funny voice and almost one-dimensional niceness is entering the same territory

Georgette's inclusion in the cast originally had an ulterior motive to humanize Ted. Ted Knight had been increasingly resentful about playing the buffoonish Ted Baxter and pushed the producers to add depth to the character. I'm not sure why his first on screen girlfriend, Chuckle's daughter, fizzled. The episode ended with the two still together, but she was never seen again; not even in a later episode famously about Chuckles. (The actress turns up again, but playing a different character.) I find Georgette mildly irksome in her earliest episodes, but she toned down her ditzy performance eventually.

Nanette Fabray has done a nice job of making Mary’s mother a passive-aggressive nightmare.

I thought Nanette was particularly well cast. She was one of Mary's comedic inspirations and looked like she could have been Mary's mother. Odd that the character ws never seen again.

At this point, I’ve shifted my position on the spinoff and would be up for watching it if the opportunity arose

I wouldn't go so far as to discourage you, but would suggest you go in with very low expectations. RHODA isn't necessarily a bad show, but it's not good either. It never found its identity or its focus. Even Rhoda herself lost much of the spark from MTM.

In addition this season has given us an example of a non-stereotypical gay character whose homosexuality isn’t there for cheap laughs.

I said earlier in the thread that MTM's handling of 'issues' was more subtle than on Norman Lear's concurrent shows, but I think a better description is matter-of-fact. Rhoda being Jewish, Gordy being Black, Phyllis' brother being gay, Mary being sexually active and on the pill -- these things simply were. On Lear's shows these would have been hot topics for the principals to argue over, but on MTM they just existed.

"As Mary Tyler Moore goes, so goes America" -- Arthur Harmon on MAUDE, expressing his dismay over Mary being on the pill.

Somehow it seems appropriate that a Norman Lear sitcom commented on the cultural impact of MTM, and that MTM never felt the need to reciprocate. The aforementioned book has a chapter exploring MTM's societal impact in the 70s and comparisons to Lear's shows. While MTM and AITF broke ground, in very different ways, in the same year, the author focused on the comparisons between MTM and MAUDE. Calling the two shows "sisters in TV feminism", she also notes that Maude was the anti-Mary Richards: middle aged, married, non-working, and aggressive in her politics. The two shows even shared some female writers, but felt no need to match MAUDE's more strident approach to issues.

One of MTM's few message episodes, the previously discussed "Some of My Best Friends are Rhoda", was not well liked by the show's creators. Allan Burns, the co-creator and writer, called the episode "a little preachy" and "not our MO". They would deliberately avoid any further episodes that trod into Norman Lear territory.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I thought Nanette was particularly well cast. She was one of Mary's comedic inspirations and looked like she could have been Mary's mother. Odd that the character was never seen again.

Or at least referred to again. To have her parents move around the corner, somewhat to Mary's dismay, and to never even have her mention that they moved away, is an unusual fumble for the show.

But even Mary's show had continuity issues -- some easy to understand and some not. One of the series' strengths was that it was one of the first programs which unfolded in real time, but they couldn't keep straight Mary's highschool name nor which year was born (1939 or 1940?). I just saw an early Season 6 episode yesterday in which Mary referred to knowing Ted "seven years" (when it should have been six or even five, and the program was usually a little more consistent with these things).

I wouldn't go so far as to discourage you, but would suggest you go in with very low expectations. RHODA isn't necessarily a bad show, but it's not good either. It never found its identity or its focus. Even Rhoda herself lost much of the spark from MTM.

Yes, and that's it. It was predictable that when you take a very popular, snarky side-character and give them their own shows, most of the edge will be removed and handed over to a new side-character, Brenda the sister (only she didn't have much of that edge). Plus, Brenda was so different (and differently cast) than she was on MTM briefly, they should have said Rhoda had two sisters -- the one from MTM you never saw again.

RHODA's identity was indeed up for grabs. There was never the clarity that existed on the parent series -- there's a rolling sea of pleasantly lame episodes, one after the other, that just don't entirely work.

One of MTM's few message episodes, the previously discussed "Some of My Best Friends are Rhoda", was not well liked by the show's creators. Allan Burns, the co-creator and writer, called the episode "a little preachy" and "not our MO". They would deliberately avoid any further episodes that trod into Norman Lear territory.

Interesting. I know the '70s feminists weren't all that thrilled with MTM because, basically, Mary Richards was too nice, her feministic discovery too subtle and organic. They wanted her to be more of a MUROHY BROWN kind of character, kickin' ass and takin' names (presumably male ass & names) which wouldn't have worked in 1970 and became tired quite quickly even on Candice Bergen's show.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Georgette's inclusion in the cast originally had an ulterior motive to humanize Ted. Ted Knight had been increasingly resentful about playing the buffoonish Ted Baxter and pushed the producers to add depth to the character.

This makes sense. Thanks for the context. The arc so far has reminded me of Arthur and Vivian over on Maude in that it gives a bit of grounding and purpose to an existing character who might long-term have become aimless, repetitive or predictable (even though Ted's predictability has been perfectly enjoyable for me up to this point, even before Georgette).

I thought Nanette was particularly well cast. She was one of Mary's comedic inspirations and looked like she could have been Mary's mother.

After watching one of her episodes I looked for more information on the actress and found a couple of photos of her taken in the Fifties where the resemblance really jumped out.

Odd that the character ws never seen again.

To have her parents move around the corner, somewhat to Mary's dismay, and to never even have her mention that they moved away, is an unusual fumble for the show.

I was taken aback to discover I'd already seen the last of Mary's parents when really they've just arrived and it felt as though it was setting up some long-term recurring cast members.

RHODA isn't necessarily a bad show, but it's not good either. It never found its identity or its focus. Even Rhoda herself lost much of the spark from MTM.

There was never the clarity that existed on the parent series -- there's a rolling sea of pleasantly lame episodes, one after the other, that just don't entirely work.

Since I'd be unlikely to shell out for the overpriced DVDs, this knowledge helps cushion the blow.

I said earlier in the thread that MTM's handling of 'issues' was more subtle than on Norman Lear's concurrent shows, but I think a better description is matter-of-fact. Rhoda being Jewish, Gordy being Black, Phyllis' brother being gay, Mary being sexually active and on the pill -- these things simply were. On Lear's shows these would have been hot topics for the principals to argue over, but on MTM they just existed.

Since I've been just letting the series wash over me, this fact hadn't actually crystallised with me. But as soon as I read this I realised how true this is.

One of MTM's few message episodes, the previously discussed "Some of My Best Friends are Rhoda", was not well liked by the show's creators. Allan Burns, the co-creator and writer, called the episode "a little preachy" and "not our MO". They would deliberately avoid any further episodes that trod into Norman Lear territory.

I think it was the beginning of the Third Season (shortly after the Some Of My Best Friends... episode) where I feared it might be heading in this direction by getting heavy-handed with the feminism. Two or three of the early episodes this season had Mary treated differently or turned down for something she wanted or singled out in some way on the basis of her gender. It was a relief that they didn't really delve too deeply.

 

[Crimson]

Or at least referred to again. To have her parents move around the corner, somewhat to Mary's dismay, and to never even have her mention that they moved away, is an unusual fumble for the show.

Particularly after the loss of Rhoda and Phyllis. With the absence of her two friends, Mary's entire life seemed to revolve around work; even her social life seemed to include only her co-workers. (Sure there was Georgette, but she was tied to Ted.)

It was predictable that when you take a very popular, snarky side-character and give them their own shows, most of the edge will be removed and handed over to a new side-character, Brenda the sister

Right. Basically Rhoda because the Mary and Brenda became the Rhoda, but that was just never going to work out. Seems like David Groh got way too much blame for the relative failure of RHODA for not being 'interesting' enough. Rhoda -- the Rhoda we knew from MTM -- really needed a straightlaced, straight man for the same reason she complimented Mary so well. Joe was fine. The problem is that Rhoda lost most of her color. (Judd Hirsh was the producer's first choice for Rhoda's love interest but he declined.)

I know the '70s feminists weren't all that thrilled with MTM because, basically, Mary Richards was too nice, her feministic discovery too subtle and organic.

Which is funny because I doubt many little girls grew up wanting to be Maude, but an entire generation grew up wanting to be Mary Richards.

Since I'd be unlikely to shell out for the overpriced DVDs, this knowledge helps cushion the blow.

If you decide to skip RHODA , I strongly encourage you to get over your aversion to Youtube videos and watch the two-part wedding episodes (S01E08 & S01E09). You won't have any trouble following along despite skipping the first seven episodes, and the wedding is hilarious. They're also basically episodes of MTM, since Mary, Phyllis, Georgette, Lou and Murray guest star. Toss in Rhoda's parents and it's pretty much the last time you'll see the entire cast together. (Excluding Ted, who had no reason to attend Rhoda's wedding, and Sue Anne, not yet a cast member.) I think you'd be best to watch these in between seasons four and five.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Particularly after the loss of Rhoda and Phyllis. With the absence of her two friends, Mary's entire life seemed to revolve around work; even her social life seemed to include only her co-workers. (Sure there was Georgette, but she was tied to Ted.)

Of course, once she moved to her new apartment, we had the brief appearances of Mary Kay Place and Penny Marshall as Mary's "whacky" new neighbors.

I actually think they could've worked, but I'm not really sorry, either, when they were quickly whisked away to MARY HARTMAN, MARY HARTMAN and LAVERNE & SHIRLEY midway through the 1975/76 season..

Right. Basically Rhoda because the Mary and Brenda became the Rhoda, but that was just never going to work out. Seems like David Groh got way too much blame for the relative failure of RHODA for not being 'interesting' enough. Rhoda -- the Rhoda we knew from MTM -- really needed a straightlaced, straight man for the same reason she complimented Mary so well. Joe was fine. The problem is that Rhoda lost most of her color. (Judd Hirsh was the producer's first choice for Rhoda's love interest but he declined.)

Yes, Groh wasn't the problem. And once he was dumped, RHODA becomes the swinging single -- only, a reluctant one -- the producers had originally intended for the spin-off, only Fred Silverman and CBS pressed for an early wedding for November sweeps to achieve a ratings bonanza... Which they got. But now they'd already written themselves into a corner.

Who knows what might've happened had Rhoda stayed single for longer on her own spin-off. But by the time they divorced her from Joe, and surrounded her with lounge lizard disco kings perpetually on the make, RHODA's identity just became even more muddled... I'm not sure if the late-'70s time capsule motif of cheesy guys with gold chains and low-buttoned acetate shirts (I had them myself, although I swear I was much younger) was an error, or if they should've leaned into even more than they did.

Harper was a decent dancer, so maybe having her haunt the clubs with her breezy moves by night, and staked by a pervy serial killer she'd met there by day, could have been the right place to go creatively. I dunno. It could be a season-long story arc, full of homicidal chuckles, in the pre-DALLAS days.. After all, Rhoda Morgenstern had always portrayed herself as the perennial loser -- so maybe being stalked by a groovy sex killer was a natural development for her future and that of the series.

And I'm not sure I'm kidding.

I didn't know that about Judd Hirsch. I'm a bit meh on Hirsch -- liked him in ORDINARY PEOPLE but not always in a lot of other things. He was okay in TAXI, but perhaps he thought a co-starring role in RHODA might have derailed him from all his DELVECCHIO glory... I wonder how a Hirsch version of Joe might have changed the series' dynamic... We're supposed to believe Joe was an incredibly sexy New York guy, and David Groh almost captured that, while Hirsch would have likely struck an un-sexy, uptight, self-righteous, vulnerable-for-the-wrong-reasons fellow.

So his saying "no" was probably a good choice.

Speaking of Hirsch, I always think he's too old and perhaps miscast in RUNNING ON EMPTY. I always want to see a Jon Voight, with dark hair, but I don't think nordic Voight was jewish (which was slightly important to the story).

Which is funny because I doubt many little girls grew up wanting to be Maude, but an entire generation grew up wanting to be Mary Richards.

Did the next generation want to be Murphy Brown? I actually don't know, but somehow I doubt it.

If you decide to skip RHODA , I strongly encourage you to get over your aversion to Youtube videos and watch the two-part wedding episodes (S01E08 & S01E09). You won't have any trouble following along despite skipping the first seven episodes, and the wedding is hilarious. They're also basically episodes of MTM, since Mary, Phyllis, Georgette, Lou and Murray guest star. Toss in Rhoda's parents and it's pretty much the last time you'll see the entire cast together. (Excluding Ted, who had no reason to attend Rhoda's wedding, and Sue Anne, not yet a cast member.) I think you'd be best to watch these in between seasons four and five.

Yes, yes. Watch the two-part wedding episode -- for the reasons you describe.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

If you decide to skip RHODA , I strongly encourage you to get over your aversion to Youtube videos and watch the two-part wedding episodes (S01E08 & S01E09). You won't have any trouble following along despite skipping the first seven episodes, and the wedding is hilarious. They're also basically episodes of MTM, since Mary, Phyllis, Georgette, Lou and Murray guest star. Toss in Rhoda's parents and it's pretty much the last time you'll see the entire cast together. (Excluding Ted, who had no reason to attend Rhoda's wedding, and Sue Anne, not yet a cast member.) I think you'd be best to watch these in between seasons four and five.

Yes, yes. Watch the two-part wedding episode -- for the reasons you describe.

Well you've persuaded me, so I'll RSVP in the affirmative to ensure I attend.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Well you've persuaded me, so I'll RSVP in the affirmative to ensure I attend.

Rhoda's nuptials was/were the highest rated TV wedding of all time (up until that point) overriding the record set by Tiny Tim's wedding on THE TONIGHT SHOW in 1969. I think Rhoda's record was surpassed by the dire wedding of Mitch & Lucy on DALLAS in 1981.

I assume Charles & Diana's wedding a few months later trounced them all, but I can't remember the figures.

 

[Seaviewer]

Plus, Brenda was so different (and differently cast) than she was on MTM briefly, they should have said Rhoda had two sisters -- the one from MTM you never saw again.

That was a different sister - Debbie according to IMDb - but it is odd that they never mentioned her again on either show.

"The Mary Tyler Moore Show" Rhoda's Sister Gets Married (TV Episode 1973) ⭐ 7.7 | Comedy

30m | PG

www.imdb.com

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

That was a different sister - Debbie according to IMDb - but it is odd that they never mentioned her again on either show.

"The Mary Tyler Moore Show" Rhoda's Sister Gets Married (TV Episode 1973) ⭐ 7.7 | Comedy

30m | PG

www.imdb.com

Well, then I have had another brutal false memory syndrome episode, because I was convinced they called her "Brenda."

But it's indeed Debbie............ so weird..... because I've seen the episode multiple times over the last 50 years.

Okay, this is now getting too strange -- the actress playing Debbie Morgenstern, Louise "Liberty" Williams, is actually 40 here when she's supposed to be only 21??

Louise Williams - IMDb

EDIT: I'm composing an elaborate conspiracy here, one that traverses both space and time, and it probably involves Ed Ledding.

 

[Crimson]

Based on comments made on MTM, Rhoda appears to have at least four siblings. In one of Ida's early appearances, there's reference to a brother, Albert, and an unnamed sister. Rhoda later tells Mary how she overslept and missed her sister's wedding, a sister who was marrying Rhoda's fiancé. This was clearly not Debbie or Brenda, but could be the previously unnamed sister. We saw Debbie once. And, of course, Brenda.

So we're just left wondering why Brenda wasn't at Debbie's wedding and why none of the others were at Rhoda's. My best head canon is they all went "no contact" with Ida because she was such a pain in the ass.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

I thought Valerie Harper was good as a supporting actress on the MTM show as Rhoda.
I thought "Rhoda" was a mediocre show, at best.
Valerie Harper's limitations as a lead surfaced again when she had another show.
I don't blame the showrunners for replacing her.
I found Sandy Duncan far more likeable.
Furthermore, actors/actresses forget that this is Show Business with a capital B
If taking a show in another direction increases ratings and therefore becomes more profitable,
that is reality.
IE "Happy Days", "Melrose Place" ,"Mom" and...both "Dallas" and "Knots Landing", which evolved significantly since their
first seasons.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Furthermore, actors/actresses forget that this is Show Business with a capital B

How does apply to the VALERIE situation.?

She won the suit with Lorimar-Telepictures and she should have. They were disregarding er contract.