Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

[Crimson]

As well as a sign of the series' success, could the spinoff also be a sign of the times? When I think of some bigger hits of later decades

For American sitcoms, the 70s and 80s were the heyday of spin-offs at least when it came to lead/major ensemble characters being given their own shows. There wasn't a whole lot of precedent, if any, for a significant character being 'stolen' from a hit TV series for their own; I think that indicates just how popular Rhoda was in the early 70s. Once MAUDE became a hit, CBS started pushing harder for a Rhoda spin-off.

Now I think of it, this explains why one of the other regular newsroom background characters was upgraded to a speaking part in occasional S4 episodes (I forget his name, but he's got shoulder-length blonde-ish hair and looks not unlike Foggy from the Daredevil series).

Peter -- mostly a background extra, he only has two or three speaking parts. The actor was the son of the assistant director on the show.

And I suppose it's good that there was no attempt to force in another Rhoda type.

There are a few characters introduced over the next few seasons who seem to me be be attempts at giving Mary a Rhoda-replacement. Each of them only stuck around for a few episodes; much like Mary's suitors. I assume they were trials to see if they would have good chemistry with Mary and when that didn't pan out, they were dropped.

 

[Daniel Avery]

A friend of Valerie Harper's offered a great summation:
"Mary is who you wish you were. Rhoda is who you probably are. And Phyllis is who you're afraid you will become."

 

[tommie]

For American sitcoms, the 70s and 80s were the heyday of spin-offs at least when it came to lead/major ensemble characters being given their own shows.

I've mentioned it before, but when Family Guy choose Cleveland to do a spin-off from and not a more popular character like Quagmire, the producers said out-right that the reason they choose him was because he wasn't an important character to Family Guy and he was sort of underdeveloped enough so they could have freedom to do whatever they wanted. I think that makes a lot more sense as a lot of characters don't make sense outside their tv shows universe after a while.

 

[PsychoDrama]

Rhoda
Season One
Joe / You Can Go Home Again / I’ll Be Loving You, Sometimes / Parents’ Day / The Lady In Red / Pop Goes The Question / The Shower



I began watching this quite reluctantly. Now I’ve reached the point where I need to cut off and watch the first batch of MTM S5 that lead up to the wedding crossover, I feel reluctant to stop watching Rhoda.

The series won me over fairly quickly. There wasn’t a specific episode or scene that clinched it, but somewhere early on it just worked for me. This has been the biggest surprise because expectations were low and expected to be quite underwhelmed by it.

The opening titles are great. Very creative, and with a narration that’s surprisingly easy to remember verbatim very quickly. I love the little musical segue to the MTM theme when she mentions Minneapolis. And the nod to the beret-throwing scene in the closing titles is a lovely touch as well. Mary’s cameo after Rhoda’s proposal actually felt a little jarring, but was a nice bit of continuity. I understand she also originally appeared in a pre-title scene in the first Rhoda episode which was lost as the series was syndicated and released on home media. Shame.

The supporting cast doesn’t feel as well-defined as MTM, but this isn’t necessarily a bad thing. MTM is a series where most characters have a defining characteristic that sets them apart: Lou the grouchy boss; Ted the buffoon; Murray the reliable-but-snarky writer; Georgette the ingénue, and so on. In Minneapolis, Rhoda’s thing was as the direct and sometimes brash friend. But in New York this doesn’t set Rhoda apart from the rest of the ensemble. Most of the Rhoda ensemble isn’t as instantly-identifiable as that of MTM, but this works in the series’ favour by making it feel a little more real and nuanced.

There are still certain sitcom archetypes such as the critical, guilt-inducing mother and the henpecked father, but it all blends well and feels balanced. Rhoda even has its own ingénue, but Julie Kavner’s endearing Brenda is far preferable, since she’s played for truth and seems more age-appropriate than Georgette the child-woman (even though, surprisingly, Julie is only two years younger than Georgia Engel).

Julie’s face is familiar to me from The Tracy Ullman Show which I watched (and frequently re-watched from recordings) back in the Eighties. And it goes without saying her voice is always recognisable.

It’s good to see both Rhoda’s parents back to add further familiarity. I know there are inconsistencies (and arguably retcons) when it comes to Rhoda’s siblings, but it’s pleasing to see that no recasts have been necessary as sometimes happens when a one-off or occasional part becomes more regular. I actually really like the dispersed family unit we see, and I’ve especially enjoyed the scenes between Valerie Harper and Julie Kavner, where there’s a happy and supportive energy (I have no idea what was going on behind the cameras with this series, but this does feel like a genuinely happy set).

Given earlier thread comments about marrying off Rhoda too soon I suppose I’m now at a pivotal point. Already I can see the immediate change Rhoda and Joe’s marriage is going to have on the series. The Rhoda/Brenda scenes have been the heart of the series for me to date, and that living situation is going to change. And once it’s changed, no matter what happens in the storyline, it’s difficult to go back.

I like Joe as a character, and would have been fine with Rhoda having a steady partner for the series, but it does feel ridiculously quick to get married. There’s also something about it that feels it undermines the character of Rhoda. There was an attempt to mitigate this with her “I want to get married and I hate that I want to get married” speech to Joe, but for me it backfired and ended up coming across as a manipulation rather than an explanation.

My curiosity is definitely piqued to see where the series goes from here. The plan was to watch at least up to the wedding to give the series the best chance but, unless the wedding changes the series beyond recognition, I plan to continue watching.

 

[Crimson]

This has been the biggest surprise because expectations were low and expected to be quite underwhelmed by it.

Hopefully I didn't lower your expectations too much. RHODA is 'bad' only in comparison to MTM, which is one of the great American sitcoms. Even at its worst, I think RHODA is watchable and enjoyable.

Where you are in the series is not yet a good indicator of how well you would enjoy it as a whole. The producers of MTM had a firm hand in the early days of RHODA to help it with a strong start; their influence is less strong as the series progresses. You already seem aware of the show's upcoming pitfalls, so that foreknowledge may prevent you from being too disappointed.

A lot of my apathy towards RHODA is about what the show wasn't, rather than what it was. I said before, I wish Rhoda had remained on MTM until the end and only after gotten her own show. Alternately, I wish her show had been set in Minneapolis. I could see Brenda leaving NYC to get away from Ida, and sharing an apartment with Rhoda. This could have allowed for more frequent cross-overs with MTM. (Added bonus: less Ida. A hilarious character to be sure but, like Phyllis, best in smaller doses.) But, we got what we got.

 

[PsychoDrama]

Mary Tyler Moore
Season Five
Will Mary Richards Go To Jail? / Not Just Another Pretty Face / You Sometimes Hurt The One You Hate / Lou And That Woman / The Outsider / I Love A Piano / The New Sue Ann / Menage-a-Phyllis


Rhoda
Season One
Rhoda’s Wedding / The Honeymoon / 9-E Is Available / I’m A Little Late, Folks / Anything Wrong? / ’S Wonderful


Watching these MTM episodes in between batches of Rhoda episodes, and with them being the first ones since Valerie Harper had officially left the series, I was naturally looking for pieces of dialogue that alluded to Mary’s best friend’s new situation. And I found… nothing.

Rhoda didn’t even rate a mention until the episode where everyone was suddenly excited about Rhoda’s wedding and dashing about purchasing presents in readiness. It seems a really odd way to go about things. Continuity aside, you’d have thought the powers that be at CBS and MTM Enterprises would have encouraged a little horizontal marketing between the two series (it is a business, after all). But it seemed to be taken for granted that viewers would know where Rhoda was. Which takes some confidence, I suppose.

So far, at least, MTM hasn’t suffered too badly from Rhoda’s absence, although I’m sure I’d miss her far more if I were solely watching the parent series and not getting my fix of the spinoff. In fact The New Sue Ann is a favourite episode (not necessarily the favourite, but then I don’t know which episode would be).

The big crossover episodes with Rhoda’s wedding were great. Considering the two series’ different tones and voices, I was impressed with how integrated everyone was. I’d half expected minimal interactions with the broader cast, but the pre-wedding dinner at the Morgansterns’ was great. Rather than diluting things, I felt the new characters breathed new life into the long-familiar MTM cast. In particular I enjoyed the scene between Ida and Georgette which began with Ida asking Georgette to speak up and ended with her telling her not to speak up. Very impressive considering I’m finding Georgette grating on me a little in MTM at this point. I also loved the scene where Rhoda (unheard at the end of the intercom) gave Mary a few choice words for Phyllis and when Mary baulked, Brenda willingly took the phone and casually listened to the (presumably profane) tirade like a secretary taking minutes (“Uh huh. Yeah. Mmm hmm”). Oh, and Ida's fury towards a terrified Phyllis was glorious.

Brenda and Ida are probably my favourite characters in Rhoda, which seems odd since Rhoda herself was, for me, one of the best things about MTM. She’s still great here, of course, and I’d say casting all round is terrific. There’s no character that doesn’t work.

The guest-cast is fun for seeing actors who would go on to other things. Pamela Bellwood was great as Joe’s ex-girlfriend (I know another future Eighties prime time soap name will show up later as his ex-wife). Henry Winkler showed up again, and there was Isbecki from Cagney & Lacey as a randy sofa delivery man given short shrift by Rhoda.

I must confess to a weary feeling by seeing that Richard Schaal appears in the next episode as yet another character. I know he was married to Valerie Harper at this point, but really. This is at least his fifth unique role in the franchise. Chuckles The Clown aside, he’s been pretty much identical in his numerous MTM roles. Will his Rhoda one be any different? And I see he also played ANOTHER role in Phyllis.

Incidentally, I don’t believe there’s been any mention of Joe’s faith. Since Ida was previously so keen for Rhoda to marry someone from the Jewish faith I find myself wondering if there was a missed opportunity for some material there, even with a passing quip or comment.

Mary’s wall panelling was spotted in one of Rhoda’s one-off sets (I forget which). And I’ve also noticed the configuration of Apartment 9-E (Rhoda and Joe’s new apartment) flows in much the same way as Mary’s apartment.

Hopefully I didn't lower your expectations too much.

Not at all. You lowered them just enough. I'd far prefer to begin with lower expectations and be pleasantly surprised than vice versa.

The producers of MTM had a firm hand in the early days of RHODA to help it with a strong start; their influence is less strong as the series progresses. You already seem aware of the show's upcoming pitfalls, so that foreknowledge may prevent you from being too disappointed.

I hope so. As you can tell, I haven't avoided a bit of reading on the series up to a point so I'm aware of a couple of the turns it takes (such as in the third season).

Rhoda being married hasn't thrown things off as much as I feared it might, but it's still early days. So far, most of the episodes have been standard newlywed sitcom material: finding a place to live; ordering furniture; communication differences; and the pregnancy scare*. Rhoda herself has commented that as someone who has only been married a month or so she doesn't yet know what normal married life looks like. The acid test will be if the energy is still good a season or so down the line.



* I'm so glad Rhoda wasn't pregnant. As I mentioned, I thought the marriage proposal scene read as borderline manipulative on her part. If she'd become pregnant within weeks while claiming to use birth control that would have tipped the scales completely.

Alternately, I wish her show had been set in Minneapolis. I could see Brenda leaving NYC to get away from Ida, and sharing an apartment with Rhoda. This could have allowed for more frequent cross-overs with MTM.

That sounds like something I'd have enjoyed watching. Brenda being away from home for the first time would probably have echoes of early Mary Richards, which could have allowed more room for Rhoda to more noticeably remain the sassy streetwise character I loved on MTM.

Ida. A hilarious character to be sure but, like Phyllis, best in smaller doses.

I hadn't thought about that but I'm sure you're right. For me at this point in the series it's so far, so good, but her role's been relatively small to date and it's her scene-stealing that makes the character special.

 

[Crimson]

Rhoda didn’t even rate a mention until the episode where everyone was suddenly excited about Rhoda’s wedding and dashing about purchasing presents in readiness. It seems a really odd way to go about things. Continuity aside, you’d have thought the powers that be at CBS and MTM Enterprises would have encouraged a little horizontal marketing between the two series

Very odd indeed. I could have sworn there was at least a throwaway line early in S5 about Rhoda having moved, but I may be misremembering the scene between Mary and Georgette where Georgette offered to be Mary's new best friend. That happened when Mary & Rhoda were feuding, not after Rhoda left.

Other than the wedding episodes, I haven't watched RHODA in years. How was Rhoda's exit from Minneapolis handled on that show? Was she visiting NYC, met Joe and decided to stay, or was it indicated that she had already moved to NYC? I'm wondering how much the MTM producers were hedging their bets. If RHODA flopped, maybe the plan was to bring her back to MTM and treat her time in NYC as an extended visit.

Very impressive considering I’m finding Georgette grating on me a little in MTM at this point.

I'll admit that Georgette is my least favorite of the main MTM cast, although I'd stop well short of saying I find her grating. I'm glad her woman-child persona lightened a bit, because in the early episodes she came across as borderline "special".

I must confess to a weary feeling by seeing that Richard Schaal appears in the next episode as yet another character.

A curious thing about early American sitcoms (50s through 70s) is how often they would reuse actors. Some shows practically had a rotating troupe of actors who would play various supporting or background roles, so that you'd see the same faces over & over. I assume there was no anticipation of future viewership trends; no one envisioned a day when people would watch episodes in close succession, making the recurring faces so obvious. There's 2 1/2 years in between Schaal's appearances as Howard Arnell and Dino, so viewers at the time probably didn't notice too much. Even in syndication, the episodes would be weeks apart.

Watched in closer proximity, "I Was a Single for WJM" is more jarring. Not just because Schaal is playing yet another character, but here's an actor who had played Chuckles the Clown paired with the actress who had played Chuckles' daughter; only now they're husband and wife.

Incidentally, I don’t believe there’s been any mention of Joe’s faith. Since Ida was previously so keen for Rhoda to marry someone from the Jewish faith I find myself wondering if there was a missed opportunity for some material there, even with a passing quip or comment.

Judd Hirsh was the producers first choice for Joe; a Jewish actor from the Bronx, casting that would have pleased Ida immensely. With Joe Gerard in the role, I don't believe Joe was meant to be Jewish or that his faith (or lack of) was ever addressed on the show. One thing's for certain: RHODA wasn't going to address an interfaith couple. Aside from the MTM ethos of avoiding social issues, even in the age of Norman Lear interfaith marriages were controversial in 70s TV. In 1972, there had been a show called BRIDGET LOVES BERNIE about a Catholic woman marrying a Jewish man. It was a firestorm and quickly cancelled. RHODA wasn't going to repeat that.

Rhoda being married hasn't thrown things off as much as I feared it might, but it's still early days

The writers found the marriage challenging. By the mid-70s, American TV was getting a bit prudish and "sex" -- even among married couples -- was getting a bit taboo. The writers felt boxed in by the marriage.

 

[tommie]

Not surprised you're sold on Rhoda so early on, but at the same time, the possibilities for me were snuffed out after "The Wedding".

I thought the show started showing potential again in seasons 3-5. But it never quite got to the sweet spot. In fact, I might just prefer "Phyllis" (controversial opinion).

 

[Crimson]

I thought the show started showing potential again in seasons 3-5. But it never quite got to the sweet spot. In fact, I might just prefer "Phyllis" (controversial opinion).

I haven't seen enough of PHYLLIS to have an opinion on the show beyond being skeptical that Phyllis Lindstrom was a character to build an entire show around.

The differences between MTM and RHODA though is a case study in how a show can thrive when allowed to develop organically. MTM faced very little network interference in its early days. The network was just interested enough in the show, due to Mary's fame, to let it develop but otherwise were indifferent to it. Beyond the early dictate that Mary Richards couldn't be a divorcee, the network didn't meddle too much. RHODA faced nothing but network interference and increased pressures from would-be censors who wanted to rein in the boldness of early 70s TV. The RHODA creators were never really allowed to develop a clear vision for the show; they were too busy following orders.

 

[PsychoDrama]

How was Rhoda's exit from Minneapolis handled on that show? Was she visiting NYC, met Joe and decided to stay

This was pretty much it. Rhoda was visiting her family for two weeks. On day one, Brenda was babysitting Joe's son and there were immediate sparks between Rhoda and Joe.

At the end of the pilot episode much was made of Rhoda agreeing to stay in New York, but it wasn't explicitly said to be a permanent situation. She'd initially prolonged her visit by calling in sick to work, was about to give up on this and return to Minneapolis (because Joe was busy with work), but Joe came by and persuaded her to stay. Even though it had a sense of importance, I still read it that she was agreeing to stay for the extra week she'd arranged.

Because of this, she could easily have returned to MTM after the Rhoda pilot without any continuity issues. It was only at the beginning of the second episode that Rhoda actually moved her belongings back to NYC.

A curious thing about early American sitcoms (50s through 70s) is how often they would reuse actors. Some shows practically had a rotating troupe of actors who would play various supporting or background roles, so that you'd see the same faces over & over. I assume there was no anticipation of future viewership trends; no one envisioned a day when people would watch episodes in close succession, making the recurring faces so obvious.

This makes perfect sense, and it wasn't unheard of with British series as well. By virtue of their much shorter seasons (or "series" as they were generally called here) British sitcoms probably had fewer examples of the same actor recurring in the same series in different roles, but it still happened.

I think Richard Schaal is probably more noticeable because of his screen presence. He looks distinctive, has a certain acting style and a good degree of charisma, so most of his episodes tend to be quite memorable (for me, at least). Plus I always have a fraction of a second where he appears where I think he's Don Murray and then realise it's the guy that looks like him.

In an episode I watched last night, Barbara Sharma returned for the second of what I understand will be a series of appearances as Myrna. Because of her distinctive style (the look and the voice) she's still clear in my mind from her solitary MTM appearance. But of course that was three years earlier by air date.

Judd Hirsh was the producers first choice for Joe

Oh, interesting. That could have taken things in a different direction.

With Joe Gerard in the role, I don't believe Joe was meant to be Jewish or that his faith (or lack of) was ever addressed on the show.

Yes, I feel if Joe was Jewish it certainly would have been mentioned or alluded to more strongly around the time of the wedding.

Despite the full white dress and Wagner's Bridal Chorus on the accordion, the wedding ceremony was actually fairly non-denominational and neutral. It took place in a non-religious setting (the Morganstern apartment) with Rhoda and Joe writing the vows. While this kind of setting is fairly standard for such occasions in television for budgetary reasons, given your comments about interfaith couples on TV perhaps this choice was as much to mitigate any potential controversy as anything else.

With the bonus being they could pour the money saved on the wedding venue into the brilliant and iconic location scenes of Rhoda legging it through New York in her wedding dress.

One thing's for certain: RHODA wasn't going to address an interfaith couple. Aside from the MTM ethos of avoiding social issues, even in the age of Norman Lear interfaith marriages were controversial in 70s TV. In 1972, there had been a show called BRIDGET LOVES BERNIE about a Catholic woman marrying a Jewish man. It was a firestorm and quickly cancelled. RHODA wasn't going to repeat that.

I must confess I find myself surprised by this. In large part, I suppose this is because MTM directly addressed Rhoda's faith several times (Some Of My Best Friends Are Rhoda springs to mind). It's a shame, because I'd have trusted a series from this stable would be able to at least acknowledge the relationship being interfaith in a sensitive, matter-of-fact way without it blowing up but, given your context, perhaps America just wasn't ready.

With Rhoda being the best friend of one of the (if not the) best-loved American sitcom characters of all time and leading her own sitcom, it seems a funny line in the sand. But then, as you said... sex.

And at least Rhoda herself was allowed to be Jewish, unlike The Lucie Arnaz Show a decade later where the interference of CBS execs sanitised the premise it was remaking to such a degree it was pointless.

By the mid-70s, American TV was getting a bit prudish and "sex" -- even among married couples -- was getting a bit taboo. The writers felt boxed in by the marriage.

And this possibly explains why Rhoda and Joe's bed is offscreen most of the time - unlike her previous residences where it's been part of the living room!

Funnily enough, there was a line in one of the post-wedding episodes that I thought was a little edgy for the time. Rhoda and Joe were in bed and one of them said they were just thinking back. When asked to what, they replied "half an hour ago", and both of them gave a knowing little smile.

Not surprised you're sold on Rhoda so early on, but at the same time, the possibilities for me were snuffed out after "The Wedding".

I was prepared for it go downhill, and it still might.

I'm in the latter part of Season One now, and still loving the series, but overall I enjoy Rhoda the wife less than I do Rhoda the wisecracking friend.

I find her tendency to want Joe to talk about his feelings and show his emotions all the time quite suffocating. In one of the episodes I watched she was so unhappy that he internalised his feelings that she chipped away at him, only easing off once she thought she'd seen a tear (which she victoriously showed him in the mirror).

It's probably quite a realistic study of an insecure newlywed who has grown up being conditioned to share all her feelings, marrying a man she's had barely any time to know and discovering he's her polar opposite emotionally. But her lack of acceptance of who he is as a person is still pretty ugly, and (most unforgivable of all) too awkward to be truly funny.

In fact, I might just prefer "Phyllis" (controversial opinion).

Well, I wasn't planning to watch Rhoda and was sold after some encouragement, so I might be open to persuasion on Phyllis.

 

[Crimson]

I must confess I find myself surprised by this. In large part, I suppose this is because MTM directly addressed Rhoda's faith several times (Some Of My Best Friends Are Rhoda springs to mind)

Directly, but delicately. Despite the sledge hammer approach towards social issues by AITF and MAUDE on the same network, CBS wasn't thrilled about MTM being too bold about Rhoda's Jewishness. Early in the production, a network exec passed a memo to the MTM producers reminding them that Middle America disliked "New Yorkers, Jews, and moustaches".

I'm in the latter part of Season One now, and still loving the series, but overall I enjoy Rhoda the wife less than I do Rhoda the wisecracking friend.

Rhoda went through an interesting evolution in MTM. After Valerie Harper "slimmed down" (odd, since she was never even plump) Rhoda's humor shifted from self-deprecating to outwardly focused towards the losers she dated. This was a drastic shift in personality, but done so smoothly one might hardly notice. The writers of RHODA never seemed to figure out how to transition Rhoda to being a happily married wife. Her humor no longer had the same outlets. Oddly, the show might have worked better if Joe & Rhoda were less happily married and he was the subject of her barbs.

Well, I wasn't planning to watch Rhoda and was sold after some encouragement, so I might be open to persuasion on Phyllis.

I haven't seen enough of PHYLLIS to try to sway you, but listen to tommie; if for no reason than I enjoy you being in American sitcomland. I see the entirety of PHYLLIS S1 is on Youtube and in what appears to be good quality. I might just watch it myself.

Incidentally, I just noticed you passed episodes of MTM that feature two of the characters I suspect were trials for possible Rhoda-replacements: Sherry (the hooker) and Charlene (the lounge singer). Both characters only stuck around for a few episodes and I've never seen confirmation that they were considered to be recurring parts, but they both stuck me as experiments to give Mary a more worldly friend.

 

[darkshadows38]

I loved The show Rhoda back in the 90's Nick at Nite before it turned to sh*t used to air MTM at 10:00 and Rhoda at 10:30 pm. i'd watch both and i also enjoyed the spin-off Phyliss as well sorry for my bad spelling if i spelled that wrong. they aired that one as well

 

[Sea-Boo!-er]

Very odd indeed. I could have sworn there was at least a throwaway line early in S5 about Rhoda having moved,

I do remember Mary remarking that now that she had two friends starting new lives, she should make changes, too. This as a precursor to her new apartment.

 

[PsychoDrama]

Early in the production, a network exec passed a memo to the MTM producers reminding them that Middle America disliked "New Yorkers, Jews, and moustaches".

Oh yikes. That's more than a little ugly.

It's incredible Harold Gould was cast at all since he (and Martin) ticked all three boxes. I'm very glad he was cast, though.

Oddly, the show might have worked better if Joe & Rhoda were less happily married and he was the subject of her barbs.

Blissful as they are most of the time, one of the things I enjoy is the undercurrent of volatility in the relationship. Both are strong-minded characters and already there have been a number of arguments. Last night I watched an episode in which Rhoda set ground rules about how they argue, to ensure it's healthy and respectful... and she still managed to bulldoze him.

I haven't seen enough of PHYLLIS to try to sway you, but listen to tommie; if for no reason than I enjoy you being in American sitcomland.

Thanks, and I'm feeling fairly certain I'll check out at least an episode or two with an open mind and see if it's for me. There are very few names in the cast I recognise, so it could go either way.

After her appearance on Columbo I did read about the murder of Barbara Colby, so it's interesting to now have more context that Phyllis's opening episodes were her final screen appearances.

I see the entirety of PHYLLIS S1 is on Youtube and in what appears to be good quality. I might just watch it myself.

At the moment, both seasons are showing up for me in different playlists, so that looks promising.

Incidentally, I just noticed you passed episodes of MTM that feature two of the characters I suspect were trials for possible Rhoda-replacements: Sherry (the hooker) and Charlene (the lounge singer).

Oh yes. As I watched I didn't make the Rhoda connection with those two, but I can completely see why you got that impression from them.

I do remember Mary remarking that now that she had two friends starting new lives, she should make changes, too. This as a precursor to her new apartment.

It looks like that was an early Season Six episode, so it was timely for Phyllis's departure, but very belated for Rhoda (although by that point at least Rhoda's wedding had been acknowledged over on MTM.

 

[tommie]

Well, I wasn't planning to watch Rhoda and was sold after some encouragement, so I might be open to persuasion on Phyllis.

Honestly, I can't exactly sell anyone on Phyllis , except it's on YouTube, has Cloris Leachman and is mildly amusing at the worst of times.

 

[PsychoDrama]

Honestly, I can't exactly sell anyone on Phyllis , except it's on YouTube, has Cloris Leachman and is mildly amusing at the worst of times.

That'll do me.

 

[Crimson]

has Cloris Leachman

I figure between Cloris and Lisa Gerritsen, the show at least has a good start. Without having seen it, the only way I can envision a show about Phyllis working well is by centering heavily on Bess's reactions to her mother although I suspect that's not the direction the show took.

That'll do me.

I don't know its state of availability, but what's your curiosity factor on LOU GRANT? I've never seen it and probably never will. A drama spun off from a sitcom is a novel concept, but a late 70s drama about newspaper reporters doesn't pique my interest too much. The only episode I'd be curious to see features the sole MTM character crossover (one you haven't met yet).

 

[PsychoDrama]

Without having seen it, the only way I can envision a show about Phyllis working well is by centering heavily on Bess's reactions to her mother although I suspect that's not the direction the show took.

Phyllis works for me as a recurring almost peripheral character. She works best in small doses, I think, so I can't help feeling that an entire series centring round the character might just end up being too much (even on MTM, it might just be overkill if she appeared more regularly than she does).

That said, I feel she's become more enjoyable to watch as MTM has evolved. In addition, I get some hope from the fact that seeing her on Rhoda with a whole new cast of faces having their patience tested by her high-maintenance seemed to breathe new life into the character and make her seem even funnier.

With the right ensemble and a careful balance it could work, but I confess a little scepticism.

what's your curiosity factor on LOU GRANT?

Of the entire MTM franchise, Lou Grant is the only series I have any awareness of. I don't recall ever watching an episode (it was probably on past my bedtime anyway) but I did know the name, the premise and Ed Asner's face from when it was shown on British TV. I imagine this was by virtue of the fact it was still running so many years after the others had ended. Back then I had no idea it was connected to any sitcoms and it's possible the other series weren't even shown here (at this point, I find it surprising that I never saw or even heard of repeats of MTM at some point during the Eighties, but that's the case).

I don't mind the change of genre and quite like the idea of a procedural type series which appears to delve into some hot topics of the time, so would be up for watching it. It just depends if I have the will to make a hefty viewing commitment immediately after (potentially) more than 300 episodes of Mary, Rhoda and Phyllis.

I don't know its state of availability,

A quick glance at everyone's favourite video sharing site suggests a great deal of the series - perhaps the entire thing - is on the same channel as the Rhoda and Phyllis episodes.

 

[Crimson]

Phyllis works for me as a recurring almost peripheral character.

That said, I feel she's become more enjoyable to watch as MTM has evolved.

Phyllis didn't get much character evolution on MTM, but her function on the show changed drastically. Early on, she appeared often but her parts were small; she'd usually pop into Mary's apartment, insult Rhoda, and provide some info to get the plot moving. She herself was almost never involved in the plot. Then, as Cloris became a rather big star by the mid-70s, she appeared much less often but her appearances would be tailored to her. Those episodes were often hilarious because they paired Phyllis with characters she hadn't interacted with much before (selling Lou's house; getting Ted into politics; feuding with Sue Ann).

I always feel a little bad that Bess got shunted aside; I liked her interactions with Mary.

It just depends if I have the will to do make a hefty viewing commitment immediately after (potentially) more than 300 episodes of Mary, Rhoda and Phyllis.

My understanding is that LOU GRANT has almost no continuity with MTM; which makes sense, as one can hardly imagine Ted Baxter showing up in a hard hitting journalist drama. So, if you decide to visit LOU GRANT months or even years down the line, I don't think you'd miss any threads between the shows.

 

[PsychoDrama]

Phyllis didn't get much character evolution on MTM, but her function on the show changed drastically.

Very true. And you've pinpointed the reason for this perfectly.

I always feel a little bad that Bess got shunted aside; I liked her interactions with Mary.

Same here. Her appearance in the opening episode suggested she was practically a regular. I've wondered if she was originally intended to appear much more than she did but it was pared down because of Lisa Gerritsen's young age.

I'm guessing she'll have more to do on Phyllis. I've already had a a Bess-related spoiler about the series ending because the character summaries for Phyllis on the Wikipedia page are very in-depth.

Incidentally, there's a parallel between Bess appearing in the first MTM episode and Joe's son Donnie featuring in Rhoda's pilot. Donnie has a good reason for appearing so infrequently since he lives with his mother.

My understanding is that LOU GRANT has almost no continuity with MTM; which makes sense, as one can hardly imagine Ted Baxter showing up in a hard hitting journalist drama. So, if you decide to visit LOU GRANT months or even years down the line, I don't think you'd miss any threads between the shows.

With Lou Grant beginning after MTM had ended, I'd thought this might be the case. I might well end up coming back to it after a gap.





Incidentally, I've just read that CBS aired Rhoda's first season episodes at 9:30pm, after Maude. While it has a good lead-in, it still seems very late for a series that seems so family-friendly. At that time of night I'd expect something with a little more edge. It was rectified from Season Two with an 8pm slot which seems more appropriate.