Scotland's new "stirring up hatred" law

Willie Oleson

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it was there "with a focus on women in particular" and was intended to improve safety and increase confidence "especially among women and girls".
The idea that men (in general) are more equipped to take care of themselves in physical situations is not really new, I think, and perhaps I wouldn't mind that they would indeed focus on the safety of the female refugees.
What I don't understand is the need to make that distinction en lettre.
I mean, it's one thing to be ignored, it's another thing to be informed that you're going to be ignored.

And why? Is this our comeuppance, a taste of our own medicine, for treating women like inferior beings all those many years ago?
Is it to compensate for the fact that men get paid more for the same job?
It seems so incompatible with the notion that we are all "moving forward" to a "better world for everyone".

I think the fight for equality isn't over. We've achieved a lot but a standstill can be very dangerous.
Better conditions for gay/black/female/trans people it's all fine with me - I'd be crazy to say I'm not - but it seems counterproductive to do this at the expense of people who don't belong to any of these demographics.
You'd think that, in 2024, we as a human species had become intelligent and experienced enough to not make any similar mistakes.
You can call a blue box a blue box, but what's the point in saying "it's not a red box". Where does all that "wonderful insight" come from? Is it any wonder that people are losing the plot?
 

Snarky Oracle!

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Is this our comeuppance, a taste of our own medicine, for treating women like inferior beings all those many years ago?
Is it to compensate for the fact that men get paid more for the same job?

Only..... none of that is true.

Get out of your bubble.
 

Frank Underwood

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Yeah, men have only been sent to die in war, are sent to the back of the line during emergencies, have typically worked manual labor jobs, and are judged by the size of their wallet and their ability to be a protector. Violence against men is generally seen as insignificant because men are assumed to be able to "take care of themselves in physical situations." In instances of divorce, men usually lose custody of their children and are forced to pay alimony. People continue to talk about the "wage gap" as if it's 1954, without taking into account that it's simply the average earnings of men and women working full time. It does not count for different job positions, hours worked or different jobs. It has nothing to do with the same job. It has nothing to do with discrimination. Men that are socially awkward around women are derided as "incels," and the "male loneliness epidemic" has been a topic of discussion recently. When I was in school, most of the bullying I received was from girls (and I noticed they also bullied each other.) Society has generally viewed men as nothing more than disposable sperm donor worker bees. The fact that some people think only women are seen as inferior is disturbing.

And just to be clear, I'm not saying women haven't had to face their share of adversity. The point is we all have, and it does a disservice to men to pretend we are valued more.
 
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Willie Oleson

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men have only been sent to die in war, are sent to the back of the line during emergencies, have typically worked manual labor jobs
Which has everything to do with the biological aspects as I mentioned before. If your country is attacked by an army of men you're not going to send your women to defeat them. But someone has to go, that's just the way war works.
Or would it have been better if we had handed over Europe to Hitler in order to end the war as soon as possible and save many potential soldiers and casualities in the process?
There is never ever a good thing about war, but sometimes it needs to be done.
In instances of divorce, men usually lose custody of their children and are forced to pay alimony
But has it always been like that?
I'm old enough to remember that the married career woman was not a very common thing. She stayed at home with the kids regardless of her ambitions.
And in case the husband decides to ride off into the sunset with his slut secretary or the slut baby-sitter who are then going to benefit from his income, leaving the careerless wife behind with the screaming brats, then it makes sense to me that the wife says "now wait just a minute!"
And that was just the 20th century.
How did it work in the 1400s? I could imagine that the man had the right to kick his disobedient wife to the curb, which was basically a death sentence.
It has nothing to do with the same job.
Thanks, then I was wrong about that (and very fortunately so).
When I was in school, most of the bullying I received was from girls (and I noticed they also bullied each other.)
Sorry to hear that, and my high school years wasn't exactly a walk in the park either.
But this is an example.
When your opinion doesn't count based on race or gender, as it has been the case for many decades (centuries?), then that's an accepted sociocultural aspect that affects your whole life and the lives of many others. It's something you can't win simply because the alternative "doesn't" exist.
The fact that you weren't able to beat your bullies wasn't necessarily carved in stone.
 

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I'm old enough to remember that the married career woman was not a very common thing. She stayed at home with the kids regardless of her ambitions.
And in case the husband decides to ride off into the sunset with his slut secretary or the slut baby-sitter who are then going to benefit from his income, leaving the careerless wife behind with the screaming brats, then it makes sense to me that the wife says "now wait just a minute!"
And that was just the 20th century.
How did it work in the 1400s? I could imagine that the man had the right to kick his disobedient wife to the curb, which was basically a death sentence.

And you're assuming he had a secretary.

In earlier eras, women were kept in the home to protect her (and the progeny) not to "oppress" her -- even though many of them probably felt oppressed because life sucked for everybody who wasn't rich, male or female.

Many of the 19th century feminist authors who were so prominent were actually well-to-do women, often supported by their fathers and husbands, writing from their perfumed parlors about the lives of drudgery of working class woman about whom they knew little -- with no discussion of love, the welfare of children, nor the lives of even greater drudgery their husband faced as he went off to often horrible jobs in order to bring home the meager cash to support that family.

The way the feminists wrote about it, then and now, you'd think these working-class men all had Fortune 500 CEO jobs where they were bending those secretaries over their desks, drinking their lunches, carousing openly, and then came home -- if he came home at all -- to beat and rape his enslaved wife at his leisure.

Again, this wife-in-the-house dynamic was to protect not oppress her, even though some women wanted no part of that set-up -- and more power to her. But the men were not exactly living the Life of Reilly, misrepresentations notwithstanding.

The feminists still spin the story that women in the States couldn't possess a credit card until the early-'70s which hadn't been co-signed by her father (if she was single) or her husband (if she was married). This is one of many examples of how the system was suppressing her, engaging in and encouraging her "economic abuse." What they don't tell you is that the husband and father was financially responsible for her purchases and debts, and she could easily put him in the poor house (which sometimes happened). The laws were changed -- with the encouragement from the credit card companies -- so that women could finally have their own cards (with Dad and Hubby finally off the hook) which was the beginning of the surge in credit card debt (where the banks really make their money) because someone figured out that 85% of the consumer dollars are spent by women (and they weren't just buying groceries and diapers). It would be a windfall profit to the bankers. And was.

The 77% wage gap is a myth, and completely debunked by reputable economists. If women make less, it's due to her choice of work hours and choice of careers. But if you take the hourly salary at the same job, there is zero wage gap. In fact, there's some evidence that she might make slightly more, at the same job and the same hours, because of -- you know -- politics.

The feminist narrative isn't sacrosanct. In fact, they lie about the history, and the details of that history, all the time.

Many people are unaware that many women across America had the right to vote, at least locally, before many men did. As men's right to vote for decades was held hostage due to wage and property issues (how much money he had). But the layers of those stories are selectively un-interesting to the feminists.

In fact, a popular slogan in the late-19th century was "votes for women, chastity for men."

As an aside, even the temperance movement (which ushered in prohibition) was headed up by women, teaming up with the religious figures and politicians of the era, the real reason for which was to close the pubs and bars so the menfolk would have no place to go to unwind after work and before going home to the fam. If he wasn't dominated by his boss, he had to go right back to her. Pronto.

Who's really exploiting whom? Arguments could be made for different culprits.

If I was a woman, I'd certainly want financial independence, especially if the marriage goes south. But by rigging the system to push more and more money in to her hands, by women in the work force in greater numbers than ever, with divorce courts (the only courts in the land which are profit-driven) deciding in her favor almost 90% of the time, with two-thirds of college students now girls who are saddled with a lifetime of student debt just to obtain her gender studies degree, and women receiving the majority of the government entitlements (as compared to men), women's tendencies to spend 85% of those consumer dollars just has the effect of re-routing the working class resources up to the real patriarchy who own the top corporations (and whose privilege doesn't flow down to the men at the bottom).

Not to get all conspiratorial or whatever.

And Gloria Steinem was, once self-admitted, a CIA asset.

 
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Frank Underwood

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Which has everything to do with the biological aspects as I mentioned before. If your country is attacked by an army of men you're not going to send your women to defeat them. But someone has to go, that's just the way war works.
Or would it have been better if we had handed over Europe to Hitler in order to end the war as soon as possible and save many potential soldiers and casualities in the process?
There is never ever a good thing about war, but sometimes it needs to be done.
And most of the time it does not (Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, etc.)

And regardless of whether war is ever necessary or not, it still speaks to male disposability. I guess my point is biology screws us all in different ways.

But has it always been like that?
I'm old enough to remember that the married career woman was not a very common thing. She stayed at home with the kids regardless of her ambitions.
And in case the husband decides to ride off into the sunset with his slut secretary or the slut baby-sitter who are then going to benefit from his income, leaving the careerless wife behind with the screaming brats, then it makes sense to me that the wife says "now wait just a minute!"
And that was just the 20th century.
How did it work in the 1400s? I could imagine that the man had the right to kick his disobedient wife to the curb, which was basically a death sentence.
Women are just as capable of cheating on their spouse as men. That said, I can see the need for the ex-wife to be supported if the husband was the sole bread winner and was a cheat or an abuser. However, it's quite antiquated today now that career women are much more common. In fact, I've heard of a few rare cases in which the woman was the bread winner in the family and had to pay her ex-husband alimony. However, that's not the type of equality they seem to like too much. Of course, what's good for the goose...

Thanks, then I was wrong about that (and very fortunately so).
You're welcome, although there does seem to be a caveat. When it comes to salary positions, one's pay can be tied to their negotiation skills.

Sorry to hear that, and my high school years wasn't exactly a walk in the park either.
But this is an example.
When your opinion doesn't count based on race or gender, as it has been the case for many decades (centuries?), then that's an accepted sociocultural aspect that affects your whole life and the lives of many others. It's something you can't win simply because the alternative "doesn't" exist.
The fact that you weren't able to beat your bullies wasn't necessarily carved in stone.
Sure, it's an anecdotal experience. However, I think people generally have a view of women as being sweet and caring 24/7 when some of them can be as cruel as any man. When it comes to gender-based expectations, men are supposed to "man up" and stuff their emotions. If a girl picks on a boy and he reacts emotionally, he is seen as weak. And just to be clear, the bullying I received by girls was verbal rather than physical. They had a real knack for finding your insecurities and using them against you unprovoked.

As cliche as it is, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. Being a straight white man does not entitle you to an adversity-free life, nor does it make you an oppressor. I worked at a call center for a year in 2005, and I recall one male supervisor on the floor compared to three women. There were quite a few men working the phones in the cubicles, and to my knowledge, none of us felt superior to our female bosses. Bosses typically aren't popular in general, but we all knew they earned their positions. That was almost 20 years ago, yet some people still insist that women today are victims of the patriarchy and male chauvinism. I'm sure that hasn't gone away completely, but it's certainly not as prevalent today. This is also anecdotal, but I have seen women on social media judging men by their bank account, their home, their car, their appearance, etc. That makes them a "girl boss who knows her value," but if man judges a woman by certain criteria, he is an incel and a misogynist. It seems we're all held to different standards.
 
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Crimson

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even though many of them probably felt oppressed because life sucked for everybody who wasn't rich, male or female.

In the current age of Oppression Competition, this is something that gets (deliberately) overlooked: until very recently in human history everyone's life sucked unless they were a king or something. The men building the pyramids or toiling away in serfdom or coal mining in the Appalachians didn't have lives that were so much more free or privileged than their women. In the vast history of humanity heterosexual and/or white males have had "freedom" for a blink of an eye, with others following quickly behind.
 

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In the current age of Oppression Competition, this is something that gets (deliberately) overlooked: until very recently in human history everyone's life sucked unless they were a king or something. The men building the pyramids or toiling away in serfdom or coal mining in the Appalachians didn't have lives that were so much more free or privileged than their women. In the vast history of humanity heterosexual and/or white males have had "freedom" for a blink of an eye, with others following quickly behind.

When spoiled and entitled 9-year old girls (only she's really 45) find that screaming and complaining and crying The Victim works for them, there is little impetus for them to stop. So the more they're granted, the shriller their demands become.

It's been suggested before that men are Neville Chamberlain.

In the late-19th century, there was a move on to not charge or prosecute wives who murdered her husbands because all-male juries almost never were willing to convict her, especially with her tales in court of mistreatment (true or untrue) at his hands; it was considered a waste of tax-payer money. There have been more recent attempts to do the same thing... There was even an effort to decriminalize infanticide because it was a crime overwhelmingly committed by women (and thus must be simply the result of her stressors and anxiety).

As toddlers, boys tend to be more emotional than little girls. But by age 4 or 5, the boys realize their tears will be used against them, while the girls learn that her tears (even if she doesn't really feel them) will achieve support from the adults, almost always.

They both learn this. And adjust accordingly.

Feminism, despite endless assertions that it's about "equality," is actually a manifestation of the very worst of female nature. And it exists to retain and expand her privilege, privilege she endlessly claims to be endlessly denied.

Once you see it, you can't un-see it.

 
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Frank Underwood

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In regards to what men fear, I think it's more accurate to say that men are afraid of women who make them want to kill themselves.

Of course, I'm not surprised a feminist would undermine the effects of chipping away at a man's self-esteem.
 

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In regards to what men fear, I think it's more accurate to say that men are afraid of women who make them want to kill themselves.

Of course, I'm not surprised a feminist would undermine the effects of chipping away at a man's self-esteem.

Atwood also points out that women have more devious ways of operating than may be apparent on the surface.

I'll let someone else go find the exact quote.

She may be a feminist icon, but Margaret Atwood is quoted selectively -- and the feminists wouldn't like everything she says.
 

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View attachment 52295
Men are afraid that women will laugh at them.
Women are afraid that men will kill them.
-
Margaret Atwood.

Whatever the letter of the law, or even its intentions, there are people who clearly expect the implementation to result in arrests based on misgendering or, ya know, laughing at someone.
 

anndra w

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When spoiled and entitled 9-year old girls (only she's really 45) find that screaming and complaining and crying The Victim works for them, there is little impetus for them to stop. So the more they're granted, the shriller their demands become.

It's been suggested before that men are Neville Chamberlain.

In the late-19th century, there was a move on to not charge or prosecute wives who murdered her husbands because all-male juries almost never were willing to convict her, especially with her tales in court of mistreatment (true or untrue) at his hands; it was considered a waste of tax-payer money. There have been more recent attempts to do the same thing... There was even an effort to decriminalize infanticide because it was a crime overwhelmingly committed by women (and thus must be simply the result of her stressors and anxiety).

As toddlers, boys tend to be more emotional than little girls. But by age 4 or 5, the boys realize their tears will be used against them, while the girls learn that her tears (even if she doesn't really feel them) will achieve support from the adults, almost always.

They both learn this. And adjust accordingly.

Feminism, despite endless assertions that it's about "equality," is actually a manifestation of the very worst of female nature. And it exists to retain and expand her privilege, privilege she endlessly claims to be endlessly denied.

Once you see it, you can't un-see it.

If it’s good enough for Alexis I can’t see the problem.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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When I was in school, most of the bullying I received was from girls (and I noticed they also bullied each other.)

I have an old friend I've known since she was 22, fresh out of college. She's intelligent, sometimes kind of bitchy, liberal, a semi-feminist, independent, always a bit suspicious of male-domination, and we've usually gotten along quite well.

But when she got married and had twins -- later in life than often happens -- and started attending helicopter-parenting group functions, ones where all the mothers and many of the dads and all the kids were in attendance, an alert person, she began noticing something:

That the volatile, demanding, manipulative, game-playing folks running around constantly trying to "affect" everything were --- the girls. Almost always.... And coming in second, were many of the mothers.... There might be the occasional problematic boy (who would usually be the sole person reprimanded) but he was the rare exception. (And the fathers, when present, weren't even an issue).

Once she became aware of this oft-repeated pattern, her worldview -- and perspective on the war between the sexes -- changed, subtly but significantly.

Always a well of gracious generosity myself, I said to her, philosophically, that "well, both genders have their own specific issues, some of which probably overlap." But she wasn't having it: she'd figured out something she'd never really consciously noticed or put together before. And now there was no going back.

Feminists would probably dispute her shrewd observations, claim her view was skewed by "internalized misogyny," or, just as likely, assert that the superior volatility of the girls was a manifestation of those girls fighting back desperately against their oppression under the Patriarchy.

But once you see it, you can't un-see it.

 

Angela Channing

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Whatever the letter of the law, or even its intentions, there are people who clearly expect the implementation to result in arrests based on misgendering or, ya know, laughing at someone.
Well they would be disappointed because the new Scottish law doesn't cover that.
 

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I'm sure part of the difference in lesbian domestic violence rates vs gay male domestic violence rates is due to males' lesser inclination to report such things (although that doesn't explain why straight domestic violence rates aren't as high as lesbians').

 

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Violence against men is generally seen as insignificant because men are assumed to be able to "take care of themselves in physical situations."
This notion is also prevalent in the UK. The call for the police to prioritize safeguarding women and girls is often trumpeted, especially following a murder of a woman. The press, if she's deemed as worthy, then canonize the victim and hold the incident as the everyday dangers women face... et cetera.

The most recent statistics (O.N.S stats year to March 2023, England and Wales) for homicides show that 416 men were murdered while 174 females were murdered.
Of female adult victims, 45% were killed in a domestic setting, while 45% of male victims were killed by acquaintances or strangers. But still the call for the police to safeguard men and boys never happens.

Women's safety is prioritized by the police even though men are in greater danger. The AA and RAC and other breakdown services will prioritize women motorists over men when arranging recovery. Being stranded is not safer if you are male.

The idea that women are in constant danger is not shown in the ONS figures.
 

CeeCee72

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This notion is also prevalent in the UK. The call for the police to prioritize safeguarding women and girls is often trumpeted, especially following a murder of a woman. The press, if she's deemed as worthy, then canonize the victim and hold the incident as the everyday dangers women face... et cetera.

The most recent statistics (O.N.S stats year to March 2023, England and Wales) for homicides show that 416 men were murdered while 174 females were murdered.
Of female adult victims, 45% were killed in a domestic setting, while 45% of male victims were killed by acquaintances or strangers. But still the call for the police to safeguard men and boys never happens.

Women's safety is prioritized by the police even though men are in greater danger. The AA and RAC and other breakdown services will prioritize women motorists over men when arranging recovery. Being stranded is not safer if you are male.

The idea that women are in constant danger is not shown in the ONS figures.
I would be curious to see the stats regarding who is doing the murdering. Are women more likely to be killed by men or women? Are men more likely to be killed by women or men?
 
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