Why Didn’t Jock Claim Ray As His Son Earlier?

[Jock-O-Lantern]

It was said that Jock and Miss Ellie suspected that Ray was Jock’s son for a long time. Jock’s business character was questioned at times, but he was a standup guy when it came to taking care of your responsibilities.

If he had any inkling that Ray was his son, why would he allow him to work on a ranch and to be treated like the help when he should be living the lifestyle of a Ewing?

 

[Jabari Lamar]

It was said that Jock and Miss Ellie suspected that Ray was Jock’s son for a long time. Jock’s business character was questioned at times, but he was a standup guy when it came to taking care of your responsibilities.

First, I think you may be idealizing Jock Ewing's status as a father, don't forget how he treated Gary, whom he definitely always knew was his son.

Second, the official answer is because the character of Ray Krebbs was not intended to be Jock’s son when the show was created (hence, the affair with Lucy). He was just meant to be “the help,” albeit a long-time trusted member of the help. The son revelation was simply a later retcon to give the actor something to do on the show.

For an in-story explanation after the retcon, I think the answer is that Jock never outwardly suspected it (although it could be argued that he should have, since he knew he banged Ray’s mom and he should have been able to count the months back from the last time he was with her to when Ray was born), it may have been something far in the back of his mind that he simply never allowed himself to really consider because of the implications of what that would mean to Miss Ellie and their sons. But he clearly grew to love Ray like a son, as Bobby once noted, and he may have just figured that was due to lingering affection he’d had for Ray’s mother. But they handled the revelation right. When Mr. Krebbs (I forget his first name) told Jock and showed him the diary, Jock immediately believed it. Realistically, for a man in Jock’s position, even with the diary you’d want to get a blood test to be 100% sure. But Jock knew, once it was said out-loud, it just all mentally fell into place for him, including those old lingering suspicions, and it explained why he always felt such a strong connection to Ray.


I think as far as Dallas storylines go, that’s far from the least-believable.

 

[Spooky Owl!]

Jock probably figured the later Ray found out, the less damaged he'd be.

 

[Michael Torrance]

Second, the official answer is because the character of Ray Krebbs was not intended to be Jock’s son when the show was created (hence, the affair with Lucy). He was just meant to be “the help,” albeit a long-time trusted member of the help. The son revelation was simply a later retcon to give the actor something to do on the show.

For an in-story explanation after the retcon,

I wish we would have that as a sticky point on all forums, to remind people that there are exactly the in-story explanations and the pragmatic, writing and production ones.

 

[Lastkidpicked]

If he had any inkling that Ray was his son, why would he allow him to work on a ranch and to be treated like the help when he should be living the lifestyle of a Ewing?

Ray and Jock almost had a better relationship back when Ray was the ranch foreman. There were no expectations and no pressure.



Even before Ray knew the truth, he viewed Jock as a father figure. In the scene where Jock goes talk to Ray, the actors do a great job and the writing is spot on. You can FEEL the chemistry between Ray and Jock coming right of the screen at you.

It is hot, and Ray takes Jock by the arm, saying "Come on out of the sun, Jock". And leads him into the shade. Such a great moment!

That one small gesture seems to show Jock and Ray's relationship. At first, Ray counted on Jock for a job, but now Jock was counting on Ray to watch over the ranch for him as Jock got older.

Interesting that finding out a wealthy man like Jock was your father would be good news to people like Ray. But when you watch the scene again, notice the music. It is very foreboding.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

Ray and Jock almost had a better relationship back when Ray was the ranch foreman. There were no expectations and no pressure.

View attachment 20970

Even before Ray knew the truth, he viewed Jock as a father figure. In the scene where Jock goes talk to Ray, the actors do a great job and the writing is spot on. You can FEEL the chemistry between Ray and Jock coming right of the screen at you.

It is hot, and Ray takes Jock by the arm, saying "Come on out of the sun, Jock". And leads him into the shade. Such a great moment!

That one small gesture seems to show Jock and Ray's relationship. At first, Ray counted on Jock for a job, but now Jock was counting on Ray to watch over the ranch for him as Jock got older.

Interesting that finding out a wealthy man like Jock was your father would be good news to people like Ray. But when you watch the scene again, notice the music. It is very foreboding.

You've got a great eye for detail; far more than I've ever had. The things you notice like: "That one small gesture seems to show Jock and Ray's relationship."

For the most part I agree with you regarding the relationship between Ray and Jock. The one part where maybe we don't is I think it was very good for Ray to find out Jock was his father. It gave him something he'd never had: An actual father he could be proud of instead of a father figure he could be proud of. I also like that it gave Ray flexibility to get into some other areas of interest that he couldn't have afforded before. Ray looked thrilled to be part of Jock and Punk's real estate deals, and I don't have any reason to think he wouldn't have learned what he needed to learn about real estate had he been given more time with Jock. The cruelest thing is that just as Ray has this amazing thing happen in his life, Jock turning out to be his father, it's all taken away from him. He has that short, very happy time with Jock and then Jock dies. I think that is the big thing that led to Ray's self-destructive phase afterwards. I think he could very well have handled the pressure of being a Ewing, but he never got the time with Jock (when they know they're father and son) that he would have needed to adjust to that change.

I think that if Jock had lived another 5 years or so, Ray would have turned out just fine. I really think Ray just needed more time with Jock to learn more, such as how to handle having money, or having Jock there to teach him more about the real estate business, or how to handle the social status of being a Ewing. Those are all potentially highly enjoyable things for Ray, but there was a certain amount of wisdom Jock needed to impart to Ray on how to properly handle those things that required some more time for Jock to be able to effectively guide Ray through that big transition.

 

[Lastkidpicked]

The cruelest thing is that just as Ray has this amazing thing happen in his life, Jock turning out to be his father, it's all taken away from him. He has that short, very happy time with Jock and then Jock dies. I think that is the big thing that led to Ray's self-destructive phase afterwards. I think he could very well have handled the pressure of being a Ewing, but he never got the time with Jock (when they know they're father and son) that he would have needed to adjust to that change.

You are right that it's sad Ray lost Jock so soon after finding out they were father and son. But it did set up a great story arc for Ray's character. Watching Ray's self destruction and then redemption arc gave us some great writing and great acting.

 

[Justine]

I wondered this the other day actually as I couldn't remember whether it was suggested Jock had always secretly known Ray was his son. It is ironic that their relationship seemed better before the reveal, definitely less pressure all around.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

I wondered this the other day actually as I couldn't remember whether it was suggested Jock had always secretly known Ray was his son. It is ironic that their relationship seemed better before the reveal, definitely less pressure all around.

I'm interested in how you see their relationship as better before the reveal.

I think Jock and Ray had a very good relationship before the reveal and it seems to get even better after it because they started spending more time together with both of them genuinely enjoying it.

I didn't see Ray having to deal with any pressure that negatively affected his quality of life during the time between the reveal and Jock's absence when he went to South America and ended up dying there. I recall Ray's two real estate deals with Jock and Punk both being successes, with Ray making good money on each deal. More importantly, he looked thrilled to be part of some work that was new and exciting to him. Ray always loved land, so real estate was a perfect business for him. Not that Ray didn't enjoy ranching, but having some variety in your life is important to keep life exciting.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

You are right that it's sad Ray lost Jock so soon after finding out they were father and son. But it did set up a great story arc for Ray's character. Watching Ray's self destruction and then redemption arc gave us some great writing and great acting.

Unfortunate as it is but sad storylines do make for great viewing. Storylines where every one gets along are just the kiss of death for a show like Dallas.

With hindsight the sad loss of the death of Jim Davis as Jock opened up a lot of potential for the aftermath of that event dramatically on Dallas. Look how Miss Ellie deals with it before coming to accept it. Ray too for that matter, struggling with his new found identity as now being a Ewing. Sad though it was the departure of Jim Davis as Jock opened up so many dramatic possibilities for storylines.

They even attempted to bring his character back in season ten with a different actor, the late Steve Forrest as the original intention was for Wes Parmalee to actually be Jock. However because of a fan backlash they reneged on the storyline & wrote Wes off, despite the fact that the X-ray's matched Jock's! Many fan's believed that storyline to be an insult to Jim Davis. I'm afraid I don't agree, I felt it was a tribute to him if it had been handled a bit more sensitively. May they both Rest In Peace, God Bless You Jim Davis, God Bless You Steve Forrest.

 

[Jock-O-Lantern]

Unfortunate as it is but sad storylines do make for great viewing. Storylines where every one gets along are just the kiss of death for a show like Dallas.

With hindsight the sad loss of the death of Jim Davis as Jock opened up a lot of potential for the aftermath of that event dramatically on Dallas. Look how Miss Ellie deals with it before coming to accept it. Ray too for that matter, struggling with his new found identity as now being a Ewing. Sad though it was the departure of Jim Davis as Jock opened up so many dramatic possibilities for storylines.

They even attempted to bring his character back in season ten with a different actor, the late Steve Forrest as the original intention was for Wes Parmalee to actually be Jock. However because of a fan backlash they reneged on the storyline & wrote Wes off, despite the fact that the X-ray's matched Jock's! Many fan's believed that storyline to be an insult to Jim Davis. I'm afraid I don't agree, I felt it was a tribute to him if it had been handled a bit more sensitively. May they both Rest In Peace, God Bless You Jim Davis, God Bless You Steve Forrest.

View attachment 20977

View attachment 20978

I just got done watching the Parmalee storyline. So “he was” originally intended to be Jock? That news. As I watched it, he definitely had a Jim Davis/Jock feel about him. I actually believe they might have had him in mind to take on the role of Jock when Jim Davis died and they decided to bring him back. But I’m glad it turned out the way it did. Jock was dead and bringing him back would have lessened all the aftermath of his death.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

I just got done watching the Parmalee storyline. So “he was” originally intended to be Jock? That news. As I watched it, he definitely had a Jim Davis/Jock feel about him. I actually believe they might have had him in mind to take on the role of Jock when Jim Davis died and they decided to bring him back. But I’m glad it turned out the way it did. Jock was dead and bringing him back would have lessened all the aftermath of his death.

If you have the season 10 DVDs - season of the Wes Parmalee storylines - there is a special feature on it where they debunk the myth that they were ever even considering having Parmalee turn out to be Jock.

Storylines where every one gets along are just the kiss of death for a show like Dallas.

Dallas had both- that's what most recent dramas don't understand. They don't have the contrast having both good and bad times provides. Having happiness all the time or unhappiness all the time doesn't work. Variety is good!

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

I just got done watching the Parmalee storyline. So “he was” originally intended to be Jock? That news. As I watched it, he definitely had a Jim Davis/Jock feel about him. I actually believe they might have had him in mind to take on the role of Jock when Jim Davis died and they decided to bring him back. But I’m glad it turned out the way it did. Jock was dead and bringing him back would have lessened all the aftermath of his death.

If Patrick Duffy had not returned the Ben Stivers character from season nine, the so-called dream season would have turned out to be Jock. Did you know that the original cliffhanger for season nine would have had Miss Ellie looking for Clayton & discovering Jock's things in Ben Stivers bunkhouse. Ben would've turned up & revealed himself to be Jock. The original cliffhanger was filmed but scrapped when Patrick Duffy decided to come back. However that cliffhanger did turn up again in a similar situation with the Wes Parmalee storyline in season ten. So now you all know, Ben Stivers/Wes Parmalee was really Jock Ewing all along.

 

[Luke_Krebbs_Ewing]

If you have the season 10 DVDs - season of the Wes Parmalee storylines - there is a special feature on it where they debunk the myth that they were ever even considering having Parmalee turn out to be Jock.

I have the DVD's & have seen that. However it's actually the season nine DVD where they debunk it. Just because David Paulsen debunks it doesn't mean it's true. I have a few American friends on Facebook who have assured me that the original intention for Steve Forrest's character, Ben or Wes was to have him ultimately revealed as being Jock. That's how I found out what the original cliffhanger for season nine was going to be before Duffy returned. So despite what Paulsen may have said on the DVD, Lorimar did indeed try to recast the role of Jock Ewing with Steve Forrest even though it didn't work out.

 

[Justine]

I'm interested in how you see their relationship as better before the reveal.

I think Jock and Ray had a very good relationship before the reveal and it seems to get even better after it because they started spending more time together with both of them genuinely enjoying it.

I didn't see Ray having to deal with any pressure that negatively affected his quality of life during the time between the reveal and Jock's absence when he went to South America and ended up dying there. I recall Ray's two real estate deals with Jock and Punk both being successes, with Ray making good money on each deal. More importantly, he looked thrilled to be part of some work that was new and exciting to him. Ray always loved land, so real estate was a perfect business for him. Not that Ray didn't enjoy ranching, but having some variety in your life is important to keep life exciting.

Maybe I've mixed my timeline (it's been a while since I've watched season 4/5) but I seem to remember Ray being under pressure to be a businessman like Bobby and J.R.? Unless I've completely re-written the series in my head, which is entirely possible :fp:

 

[Kenny Coyote]

Maybe I've mixed my timeline (it's been a while since I've watched season 4/5) but I seem to remember Ray being under pressure to be a businessman like Bobby and J.R.? Unless I've completely re-written the series in my head, which is entirely possible :fp:

I don't remember every detail either, but at no point do I ever remember Jock pressuring Ray to be a businessman. From what I remember, Ray was offered the opportunity to get into real estate with Jock and Punk and he gladly accepted. Ray already loved land, so real estate was perfect for him. The oil business would not have been well suited for him. Jock knew that and never even mentioned the idea to Ray of him working at Ewing Oil. Ray, Jock and Punk did two deals together, both very successful and then Jock and Punk went to South America.

Ray was so enthusiastic about being in the real estate business that he decided to go into a deal alone, without Jock or Punk there. He got too high-handed, thinking he'd already learned all he needed to know and that was Ray's big mistake. If he'd shown better judgement and realized he had more yet to learn, he would have waited until Punk got back to get into another deal, but he went into a deal alone, and ended up losing the same amount of money on that deal that he'd made on the first two deals combined. He ended up breaking even after three deals and considered that a massive failure, which it wasn't.

Punk returned him and said to Ray: "Do you think I haven't made mistakes? We all make mistakes; that's how we learn"! Punk was planning to help Ray get back into the real estate business, under Punk's guidance, but Ray was so devastated over Jock's death that he had lost all motivation to do anything, even his ranching.

I would've enjoyed seeing them take the showing a direction where Ray and Punk would become closer and Punk would become something of a father figure to Ray after Jock's death. Morgan Woodward was such a good actor, and this would have given him more to do, as well as us having the enjoyment of seeing that friendship between Ray and Punk develop further. Instead they went with Ray self-destructing, recovering, and then self-destructing again after Mickey's death. Not that those weren't good stories because I enjoyed them, but I think the "Ray has another tragedy, another bout of insecurity and self-destructiveness" theme along with "Ray is having marriage problems" theme got to be a little too much of the same thing. After awhile it's just painful to watch. Adding some more positive themes along with the negative themes would have been better in my opinion rather than have quite so much negativity in Ray's stories.

 

[Justine]

Ray was so enthusiastic about being in the real estate business that he decided to go into a deal alone, without Jock or Punk there. He got too high-handed, thinking he'd already learned all he needed to know and that was Ray's big mistake. If he'd shown better judgement and realized he had more yet to learn, he would have waited until Punk got back to get into another deal, but he went into a deal alone, and ended up losing the same amount of money on that deal that he'd made on the first two deals combined. He ended up breaking even after three deals and considered that a massive failure, which it wasn't.

That must be what I remember which I think does show some issues in their father/son relationship - Ray felt that pressure to be like Bobby and J.R. (not the 'failure' like Gary) whether Jock was aware of it or not.

I would've enjoyed seeing them take the showing a direction where Ray and Punk would become closer and Punk would become something of a father figure to Ray after Jock's death. Morgan Woodward was such a good actor, and this would have given him more to do, as well as us having the enjoyment of seeing that friendship between Ray and Punk develop further.

I absolutely agree with you - Morgan Woodward was a very good actor and I wish we could have seen more of Punk than we did.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

That must be what I remember which I think does show some issues in their father/son relationship - Ray felt that pressure to be like Bobby and J.R. (not the 'failure' like Gary) whether Jock was aware of it or not.

That's very possible that Ray felt a need to make more money, so he'd be more like Bobby and JR but if Ray felt that pressure, it wasn't something Jock ever placed on him. Had Jock still been there and Ray had said he was ready to go into a real estate deal by himself, I believe Jock would have strongly advised him not to, and reminded him that he still had more to learn before he could do that.

Ray had never had the money to be able to do something like get into real estate deals, so there's no way to know for sure if he would have gotten into something like that even if he'd never been a Ewing. Becoming a Ewing gave him the money to try new things and with taking on new career ventures, there is always pressure that goes along with the fun of doing it.

It's like most things that are significant transitions in life. Getting married is great, but it adds a certain amount of pressure because people want to make their marriages successful and that takes work. Becoming a parent is very rewarding, but there is pressure and responsibility that goes along with it too. Anytime we undertake something challenging that means a lot to us, there is pressure that goes along with it. Ray made the mistake of putting way too much pressure on himself by going into a deal alone, before he was ready for it, when nobody was even encouraging him to do it. I think that's more an indication of Ray's mindset more than it is of his relationship with Jock. Ray didn't have the patience to wait until he'd learned more. Ray acted impulsively many times throughout Dallas; it was part of his personality.

 

[Jock-O-Lantern]

Maybe not directly, but Jock did kind of put some pressure on Ray when he said “Donna is used to the finer things in life and she won’t be happy marrying some cowpoke” after he had added Ray to the trust fund.

 

[Monzo]

I rewatched the episode "The Fourth Son" and was struck by how good it actually was. I liked that we didn’t see the moment Jock told Miss Ellie that Ray was his son—though we did see the revelation unfold for the rest of the family. William Windom was also compelling as Amos Krebbs. Interestingly, he would soon play the role of an estranged father again—this time as Lane’s wayward father in Flamingo Road—which really highlights the quality of the writing on Dallas. He was convincing here, whereas in Flamingo Road, working with essentially the same material, he just got on my nerves.

Was it actually spoiled before the episode aired that Ray would turn out to be Jock’s son? The episode had fewer viewers than the one before it, which is quite surprising given the subject matter. Were the viewers, in fact, genuinely taken by surprise?

Is it known when the decision was made that Ray should be Jock’s son? Was this something that originated from fan speculation—perhaps in viewer letters or soap opera magazines—that the producers then decided to incorporate? I’ve always wondered why Steve Kanaly was added to the opening credits as early as Season 2. Did they perhaps intend for him to become Lucy’s husband, only to later abandon that idea? After all, a mere employee at Southfork wouldn’t typically warrant a spot in the opening credits, would he?

I think Jock considered Margaret to be very honest, and therefore assumed that if Ray were his son, she would have mentioned it in the message Ray delivered upon his arrival. And I guess Miss Ellie assumed that if Jock had suspected Ray was his son, he would have told her; furthermore, she surely believed that Margaret—being a nurse—would have known how to prevent pregnancy.