People With Learning Disabilities Do Not Deserve To Live

[Brian Kinney]

There's also a hell of a lot of lifetime scroungers who only vote for Labour because they'll keep their bennies in tact (...)

Percentage of lifetime scroungers among voters for Labour? Less than 1%. How many damage do they to the UK compared to the 1% who own the country and vote the Tories?

 

[Frank Underwood]

Why do you try to turn every thread to which you contribute into an attack on US Democratic Party?

To point out the failed logic of people who call others "selfish" for voting for cruel right wing parties, yet support the cruel right wing Democratic Party in the US.

Consistency of values is in short supply here.

On your general point, I would never defend the racist, homophobic, English exceptionalist Tory party and I would encourage everyone to use their vote effectively to keep them out of power. I'm happy that many Americans did that to keep Trump out of power.

Unless there was an even worse party issuing do not resuscitate orders for all Covid patients. Then you would likely be making excuses why people have to vote for the Tories.

Trump was removed from power and replaced with someone who also has racist tendencies and believes it's acceptable to deny healthcare to people.

You claim to care about lives, but support Dems who deny people healthcare and demonize the poor (they just voted down a $15/hr minimum wage.) It doesn't make sense.

 

[Angela Channing]

To point out the failed logic of people who call others "selfish" for voting for cruel right wing parties, yet support the cruel right wing Democratic Party in the US.

Consistency of values is in short supply here.

Unless there was an even worse party issuing do not resuscitate orders for all Covid patients. Then you would likely be making excuses why people have to vote for the Tories.

Trump was removed from power and replaced with someone who also has racist tendencies and believes it's acceptable to deny healthcare to people.

You claim to care about lives, but justify Democrats denying people healthcare and bombing people across the world. It doesn't make sense to me.

There you go again! A thread about the UK government's attitude towards people with learning disabilities and all you want to do is turn it into an attack on the US Democratic Party when you have already started a plethora of threads in the US Politics forum that already do that.

But to respond to your point, when the choice in the USA is between a very right wing party and an less right wing party, absolutely I'm going to support the less right wing party and I make no apologies for that. You may be disappointed that Trump didn't defeat Biden as that seems to be your preferred option of the only 2 realistic outcomes but as yesterday's passing of the Covid relief bill proves Biden's win and the Democratic control of the Senate will help more ordinary people than if the orange one won.

The attack on people with disabilities is too important to allow this thread to shift its focus to being yet another anti Democratic Party one so I'd prefer to leave this discussion to one of the hundred others that you have created.

 

[Frank Underwood]

There you go again! A thread about the UK government's attitude towards people with learning disabilities and all you want to do is turn it into an attack on the US Democratic Party when you have already started a plethora of threads in the US Politics forum that already do that.

I was answering your question as to why I brought it up here in the first place. Or did you just ask me that so you could feign outrage when I answered you?

But to respond to your point, when the choice in the USA is between a very right wing party and an less right wing party, absolutely I'm going to support the less right wing party and I make no apologies for that. You may be disappointed that Trump didn't defeat Biden as that seems to be your preferred option of the only 2 realistic outcomes but as yesterday's passing of the Covid relief bill proves Biden's win and the Democratic control of the Senate will help more ordinary people than if the orange one won.

The attack on people with disabilities is too important to allow this thread to shift its focus to being yet another anti Democratic Party one so I'd prefer to leave this discussion to one of the hundred others that you have created.

I didn't have a preferred choice out of those two. Unlike the lemming masses, I voted for the Green Party. I'm not responsible for how the rest of my country votes.

As for the Covid relief bill, stimulus checks will be going to 17 million less people than they did under Trump (we received $400 more total under Trump as well.)

My initial post wasn't intended to be "yet another anti-Democratic Party" post. Rather, I was pointing out how your contempt for people being denied healthcare is conditional. You said yourself that you "make no apologies" for supporting the less right wing party. There's simply no way to hold that position and not find some human life sacrificial.

 

[Angela Channing]

I was answering your question as to why I brought it up here in the first place. Or did you just ask me that so you could feign outrage when I answered you?

I didn't have a preferred choice out of those two. Unlike the lemming masses, I voted for the Green Party. I'm not responsible for how the rest of my country votes.

As for the Covid relief bill, stimulus checks will be going to 17 million less people than they did under Trump (we received $400 more total under Trump as well.)

My initial post wasn't intended to be "yet another anti-Democratic Party" post. Rather, I was pointing out how your contempt for people being denied healthcare is conditional. You said yourself that you "make no apologies" for supporting the less right wing party. There's simply no way to hold that position and not find some human life sacrificial.

No, my annoyance rather than "outrage" is how you attempt to steer so many threads off topic and turn them into attacks on the Democratic Party. This thread was about how the UK government treat people with learning disabilities but you came on here to have a pop at the USA Democrats.

Since your post on this thread today, you have started 2 more threads in the USA Politics thread to criticise the Democratic Party, you have tried to turn a thread about enjoying Trump no longer being President into an attack on the Democratic Party and previous to that you turned a thread about Trump speaking at CPAC into an attack on the Democratic Party. Just how many threads do you want to have that attack the Democratic Party?

 

[Frank Underwood]

No, my annoyance rather than "outrage" is how you attempt to steer so many threads off topic and turn them into attacks on the Democratic Party. This thread was about how the UK government treat people with learning disabilities but you came on here to have a pop at the USA Democrats.

The Democratic Party is certainly relevant on the American politics forum, and this is the first thread I've ever posted in on this forum.

Once again, I was having a "pop" at the fact that you don't hold all political parties to the same standards.

Since your post on this thread today, you have started 2 more threads in the USA Politics thread to criticise the Democratic Party, you have tried to turn a thread about enjoying Trump no longer being President into an attack on the Democratic Party and previous to that you turned a thread about Trump speaking at CPAC into an attack on the Democratic Party. Just how many threads do you want to have that attack the Democratic Party?

The two threads I created are about recent actions the Democrats have taken against the American people.

The thread about people enjoying Trump no longer being President was a thread filled with people expressing their apathy as horrific policies continue, which I took issue with.

Lastly, I attempted to explain how Trump rose to power in the thread about Trump speaking at CPAC since people expressed being alarmed by him and his supporters.

I get that my posts don't fit the mainstream narrative here, but they are relevant in the context of the discussion to those who willingly pay attention.

Anyhow, sorry to intrude. You can go back to attacking the Tories for letting people die and supporting the Dems who also willingly let people die.

 

[CeeCee72]

The Democratic Party is certainly relevant on the American politics forum, and this is the first thread I've ever posted in on this forum.

Once again, I was having a "pop" at the fact that you don't hold all political parties to the same standards.

The two threads I created are about recent actions the Democrats have taken against the American people.

The thread about people enjoying Trump no longer being President was a thread filled with people expressing their apathy as horrific policies continue, which I took issue with.

Lastly, I attempted to explain how Trump rose to power in the thread about Trump speaking at CPAC since people expressed being alarmed by him and his supporters.

I get that my posts don't fit the mainstream narrative here, but they are relevant in the context of the discussion to those who willingly pay attention.

Anyhow, sorry to intrude. You can go back to attacking the Tories for letting people die and supporting the Dems who also willingly let people die.

I think what @Angela Channing is saying is that your posts are consistently negative regarding the Democrats, and honestly, that's not even relevant to this thread (although I take the blame for that considering I was the one who brought up Trump in the first place).

We all get where you're coming from, but you continue to view both parties as equally evil. Many of us don't feel that way. Yes, the Democrats are far from angels, but the evil of the Republicans is far greater in our view. And we have stated why we believe that over and over over and over, yet you dismiss our views with thinly vieled contempt.

No one is arguing that you can't believe whatever you want and express that opinion, but you turn EVERY political thread into a "but Trump wasn't so bad and Biden and the Democrats are Satan and his imps" discussion, even when it has no relevance to the thread.

You have stated your views. We have stated ours. Must we rehash it in every single discussion in the politics forum?

 

[Frank Underwood]

I think what @Angela Channing is saying is that your posts are consistently negative regarding the Democrats, and honestly, that's not even relevant to this thread (although I take the blame for that considering I was the one who brought up Trump in the first place).

We all get where you're coming from, but you continue to view both parties as equally evil. Many of us don't feel that way. Yes, the Democrats are far from angels, but the evil of the Republicans is far greater in our view. And we have stated why we believe that over and over over and over, yet you dismiss our views with thinly vieled contempt.

No one is arguing that you can't believe whatever you want and express that opinion, but you turn EVERY political thread into a "but Trump wasn't so bad and Biden and the Democrats are Satan and his imps" discussion, even when it has no relevance to the thread.

You have stated your views. We have stated ours. Must we rehash it in every single discussion in the politics forum?

And when I attack the Dems, I'm often accused of preferring Trump by default. That's not the case, but I'd be embarrassed if he out did me on Covid relief, or if I was just as bad as him on immigration, foreign policy, fracking, the minimum wage, etc. IMO, Democrats are wolves in sheep's clothing. We're seeing that play out in real time as we speak.

As far as this specific thread goes, I was trying to understand how Angela Channing reconciles his contempt for the Tories with his support for the Democrats. Tories support letting Covid patients with learning disabilities die. By not supporting universal healthcare, Democrats support allowing poor people to either face medical bankruptcies or die.

Apparently, he didn't want to have that conversation. Instead, he accused me of hijacking this thread to attack the Dems. So be it. And yes, I often do respond with thinly veiled contempt because I get a sense of apathy from people here that frustrates me. I have a hard time hiding my frustration, and it doesn't help that I often feel like an outsider here.

 

[Angela Channing]

I think what @Angela Channing is saying is that your posts are consistently negative regarding the Democrats, and honestly, that's not even relevant to this thread (although I take the blame for that considering I was the one who brought up Trump in the first place).

We all get where you're coming from, but you continue to view both parties as equally evil. Many of us don't feel that way. Yes, the Democrats are far from angels, but the evil of the Republicans is far greater in our view. And we have stated why we believe that over and over over and over, yet you dismiss our views with thinly vieled contempt.

No one is arguing that you can't believe whatever you want and express that opinion, but you turn EVERY political thread into a "but Trump wasn't so bad and Biden and the Democrats are Satan and his imps" discussion, even when it has no relevance to the thread.

You have stated your views. We have stated ours. Must we rehash it in every single discussion in the politics forum?

 

[Angela Channing]

The Democratic Party is certainly relevant on the American politics forum, and this is the first thread I've ever posted in on this forum.

Once again, I was having a "pop" at the fact that you don't hold all political parties to the same standards.

The two threads I created are about recent actions the Democrats have taken against the American people.

The thread about people enjoying Trump no longer being President was a thread filled with people expressing their apathy as horrific policies continue, which I took issue with.

Lastly, I attempted to explain how Trump rose to power in the thread about Trump speaking at CPAC since people expressed being alarmed by him and his supporters.

I get that my posts don't fit the mainstream narrative here, but they are relevant in the context of the discussion to those who willingly pay attention.

Anyhow, sorry to intrude. You can go back to attacking the Tories for letting people die and supporting the Dems who also willingly let people die.

And when I attack the Dems, I'm often accused of preferring Trump by default. That's not the case, but I'd be embarrassed if he out did me on Covid relief, or if I was just as bad as him on immigration, foreign policy, fracking, the minimum wage, etc. IMO, Democrats are wolves in sheep's clothing. We're seeing that play out in real time as we speak.

As far as this specific thread goes, I was trying to understand how Angela Channing reconciles his contempt for the Tories with his support for the Democrats. Tories support letting Covid patients with learning disabilities die. By not supporting universal healthcare, Democrats support allowing poor people to either face medical bankruptcies or die.

Apparently, he didn't want to have that conversation. Instead, he accused me of hijacking this thread to attack the Dems. So be it. And yes, I often do respond with thinly veiled contempt because I get a sense of apathy from people here that frustrates me. I have a hard time hiding my frustration, and it doesn't help that I often feel like an outsider here.

1. To say I don't support universal healthcare is not only untrue but is offensive. I challenge you to find any post in which I have said that. I make no apology for believing that supporting the Democrats to give more Americans access to healthcare is better than supporting the Republicans who want to repeal the policies that have widened access. You might think compromise to bring about incremental improvements is a bad thing and that it's better to have nothing at all until agreement on universal healthcare is achieved but what about the people who will die in the meantime because they can't afford treatment NOW?

2. In the US politics forum, when the Republicans had the Presidency and control of the senate about 90% of your posts were attacking the Democrats. Now that the Democrats have the Presidency and control of the senate about 90% of your posts are attacking the Democrats. Therefore is it not reasonable to assume that you prefer the Republicans to be in charge over the Democrats? If you disliked both parties equally why is your criticism overwhelmingly in one direction only?

3. To say I don't want to have a conversation about universal healthcare in the USA is a load of small spherical objects. I have discussed it many times with you on many threads in the US Politics forum. I just feel passionately about the rights of people with learning disabilities so I didn't want to have that conversation on THIS thread because I wanted it to stay on topic.

4. As far as supporting the US Democrats and disliking the UK Conservative Party there is no conflict there. The UK Tories are racist, anti-working class, anti-low income, anti-environmental Party. I think the same about the US Republican Party which is why I support the Labour Party here and the Democrats in the USA. Predictably you will say but the Democrats are also all those things too but in reality is they are no where as bad and will do far more to enact policies that support the causes I believe in than the Republican Party ever will. The Democrats are not perfect, the Labour Party are not perfect but they are both far better than the alternatives and that includes voting for a third party which only has the effect of ensuring the main right-wing party by default.

5. I've never tried to stop you from expressing your views. In fact, for quite a while now I had giving up on responding to your posts on the US Politics forum to give you a free run on posting whatever you like there without being challenged by me. However, that doesn't seem to be enough for you so you now bring your attacks on the US Democrats into threads about UK politics.

 

[Frank Underwood]

1. To say I don't support universal healthcare is not only untrue but is offensive. I challenge you to find any post in which I have said that. I make no apology for believing that supporting the Democrats to give more Americans access to healthcare is better than supporting the Republicans who want to repeal the policies that have widened access. You might think compromise to bring about incremental improvements is a bad thing and that it's better to have nothing at all until agreement on universal healthcare is achieved but what about the people who will die in the meantime because they can't afford treatment NOW?

I never said you don't support universal healthcare, but you don't push back on the Dems for not supporting it. Twenty nine million people were left uninsured under Obamacare, and many more struggle to afford their premiums. The only excuse for allowing people to go without healthcare is a prioritization of the healthcare industry.

2. In the US politics forum, when the Republicans had the Presidency and control of the senate about 90% of your posts were attacking the Democrats. Now that the Democrats have the Presidency and control of the senate about 90% of your posts are attacking the Democrats. Therefore is it not reasonable to assume that you prefer the Republicans to be in charge over the Democrats? If you disliked both parties equally why is your criticism overwhelmingly in one direction only?

From 2003 to 2016, I did nothing but bash Republicans here. My opinion of Republicans hasn't changed, but I realized the Democrats were cruel right wingers in their own right. They went after entitlement programs, they were pro war, pro Wall Street, pro fracking, pro for-profit healthcare, etc. They spent two election cycles cheating the progressive candidate. I simply had enough. Dems pretend to care about the poor and the working class, but they always end up stabbing their base in the back.

Marianne Williamson made a great analogy that Republicans are like an abusive father and the Democrats are like the complicit mother. The mother reassures the abused child that everything will be okay, but ends up never coming to the child's aid and sides with the father. When the child grows up, he ends up resenting the mother more than the father for not doing anything to end the abuse. I view Republicans and Democrats the same way. Republicans don't bother pretending to care about vulnerable people.

3. To say I don't want to have a conversation about universal healthcare in the USA is a load of small spherical objects. I have discussed it many times with you on many threads in the US Politics forum. I just feel passionately about the rights of people with learning disabilities so I didn't want to have that conversation on THIS thread because I wanted it to stay on topic.

Fair enough, but the bottom line is both parties in the US are also contributing to the deaths of their citizens by preventing many poor people from having healthcare.

4. As far as supporting the US Democrats and disliking the UK Conservative Party there is no conflict there. The UK Tories are racist, anti-working class, anti-low income, anti-environmental Party. I think the same about the US Republican Party which is why I support the Labour Party here and the Democrats in the USA. Predictably you will say but the Democrats are also all those things too but in reality is they are no where as bad and will do far more to enact policies that support the causes I believe in than the Republican Party ever will. The Democrats are not perfect, the Labour Party are not perfect but they are both far better than the alternatives and that includes voting for a third party which only has the effect of ensuring the main right-wing party by default.

Unlike the Dems, the Green Party actually supports the policies you claim to care about. Therefore, it's odd that you keep bashing them. The media has done a sufficient job of propagandizing people against them, thus making their "unviable" status a self-fulfilling prophecy. If anything pushes people to the furthest right wing party, it's a failure of the "lesser evil" to deliver on its promises. This happens in reverse as well, which is why America always ping pongs between these two tyrannical pro-war/pro-corporate parties.

Dems killed the minimum wage, Biden illegally bombed Syria (an impeachable offense), Covid relief is going to 17 million less people than under Trump, deportations are on going, migrant children are still being caged, they won't wipe out student debt, they interfere in primaries, they refuse to support universal healthcare, etc. The Clintons gutted welfare and supported anti-gay policies, Biden has gone after social safety nets, gutted civil liberties with the Patriot Act, worked with segregationists, locked up non violent black people with his crime bill, said he didn't want his kids living in a "racial jungle," etc. Obama was a huge war monger who implemented a right wing for-profit healthcare plan, which pushed Republicans even further right on healthcare. I'm not just saying that Democrats are also cruel right wingers, I'm providing facts to support my claim.

5. I've never tried to stop you from expressing your views. In fact, for quite a while now I had giving up on responding to your posts on the US Politics forum to give you a free run on posting whatever you like there without being challenged by me. However, that doesn't seem to be enough for you so you now bring your attacks on the US Democrats into threads about UK politics.

You keep saying I "attacked the US Democrats" in this thread when I've told you many times that wasn't the intention. I was pointing out that you support a party in the US that also denies healthcare to people. I saw that as a contradiction, especially since you don't push back on that. And since I know you believe in voting for whichever party you view as the lesser evil, I speculated that the Tories might be more favorable to you if there was an even further right party in the UK. I wrote two sentences, and you turned it into a giant spectacle by taking the nuance out of it and making it seem like I was randomly attacking the Democratic Party. So here we are writing lengthy posts discussing the Democratic Party rather than the topic at hand. I'd just as soon let this end now and we can both go back to posting whatever we like without being challenged by each other.