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<blockquote data-quote="Frank Underwood" data-source="post: 419449" data-attributes="member: 35">It would be nice if you were capable of debating in good faith.&nbsp; It&#039;s actually not &quot;Putin propaganda,&quot; and I&#039;ve posted the following excerpt several times to support that:&quot;Putin&#039;s central demand is that NATO remove troops from countries that joined the group of U.S.-allied nations after 1997.&nbsp; In 1990, under George H.W. Bush, Secretary of State James Baker repeatedly promised Soviet premier Mikhail Gorbachev and other Soviet leaders that if the USSR let the Warsaw Pact nations leave, NATO would not &#039;move one inch eastward.&#039; As is <a href="https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early" target="_blank">detailed in declassified</a> U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents released in 2017, Bush and the leaders of West Germany, the U.K. and France gave similar assurances.When the German magazine Der Spiegel examined these documents and interviewed those involved, <a href="https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nato-s-eastward-expansion-did-the-west-break-its-promise-to-moscow-a-663315.html" target="_blank">its reporters concluded</a> that &quot;there was no doubt that the West did everything it could to give the Soviets the impression that NATO membership was out of the question for countries like Poland, Hungary or Czechoslovakia.&quot; Today, those three former Warsaw Pact countries and two others, in addition to the three former Baltic Soviet republics and several formerly neutral countries, are members of NATO.Putin and other Russian leaders have complained bitterly about this Western duplicity, complaints echoed by Gorbachev. Numerous others have made similar criticisms, including former CIA Director Robert Gates, Cold War diplomat and historian George Kennan, and Jack Matlock, the last U.S. ambassador to the Soviet Union.In 1995, 18 retired U.S. foreign service and State and Defense Department officers <a href="https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/09/21/should-nato-growa-dissent/" target="_blank">signed a letter denouncing these NATO recruitments</a>, saying they would convince Russians that the U.S. was seeking to &#039;isolate, encircle, and subordinate them.&#039; It is this NATO penetration into Russia&#039;s sphere that is the root cause of the current conflict.&quot; - Source: <a href="https://www.salon.com/2022/01/30/yes-putins-a-tyrant--that-doesnt-mean-his-ukraine-demands-are-unreasonable/" target="_blank">Yes, Putin&#039;s a tyrant — that doesn&#039;t mean his Ukraine demands are unreasonable | Salon.com</a>Also, I&#039;ve said that nothing justifies Putin&#039;s invasion of Ukraine.&nbsp; However, that doesn&#039;t mean the US was justified in provoking the war either.&nbsp; I also called Putin a madman and a war monger several times in this very thread.&nbsp; You can disagree with me all you want, but it would be nice if you had the decency to not misrepresent what I say or to pretend that I don&#039;t substantiate my claims.&nbsp; Accusing me of &quot;Putin propaganda&quot; and &quot;justifying the Russian invasion&quot; is disingenuous trash considering what I&#039;ve actually posted here.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Frank Underwood, post: 419449, member: 35"] It would be nice if you were capable of debating in good faith. It's actually not "Putin propaganda," and I've posted the following excerpt several times to support that: "Putin's central demand is that NATO remove troops from countries that joined the group of U.S.-allied nations after 1997. In 1990, under George H.W. Bush, Secretary of State James Baker repeatedly promised Soviet premier Mikhail Gorbachev and other Soviet leaders that if the USSR let the Warsaw Pact nations leave, NATO would not 'move one inch eastward.' As is [URL='https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early']detailed in declassified[/URL] U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents released in 2017, Bush and the leaders of West Germany, the U.K. and France gave similar assurances. When the German magazine Der Spiegel examined these documents and interviewed those involved, [URL='https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nato-s-eastward-expansion-did-the-west-break-its-promise-to-moscow-a-663315.html']its reporters concluded[/URL] that "there was no doubt that the West did everything it could to give the Soviets the impression that NATO membership was out of the question for countries like Poland, Hungary or Czechoslovakia." Today, those three former Warsaw Pact countries and two others, in addition to the three former Baltic Soviet republics and several formerly neutral countries, are members of NATO. Putin and other Russian leaders have complained bitterly about this Western duplicity, complaints echoed by Gorbachev. Numerous others have made similar criticisms, including former CIA Director Robert Gates, Cold War diplomat and historian George Kennan, and Jack Matlock, the last U.S. ambassador to the Soviet Union. In 1995, 18 retired U.S. foreign service and State and Defense Department officers [URL='https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/09/21/should-nato-growa-dissent/']signed a letter denouncing these NATO recruitments[/URL], saying they would convince Russians that the U.S. was seeking to 'isolate, encircle, and subordinate them.' It is this NATO penetration into Russia's sphere that is the root cause of the current conflict." - Source: [URL='https://www.salon.com/2022/01/30/yes-putins-a-tyrant--that-doesnt-mean-his-ukraine-demands-are-unreasonable/']Yes, Putin's a tyrant — that doesn't mean his Ukraine demands are unreasonable | Salon.com[/URL] Also, I've said that nothing justifies Putin's invasion of Ukraine. However, that doesn't mean the US was justified in provoking the war either. I also called Putin a madman and a war monger several times in this very thread. You can disagree with me all you want, but it would be nice if you had the decency to not misrepresent what I say or to pretend that I don't substantiate my claims. Accusing me of "Putin propaganda" and "justifying the Russian invasion" is disingenuous trash considering what I've actually posted here. [/QUOTE]

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