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<blockquote data-quote="Frank Underwood" data-source="post: 419773" data-attributes="member: 35"><p>It's not "my claim." Per the report in Salon, "As is <a href="https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early" target="_blank">detailed in declassified</a> U.S., Soviet, German, <strong>British</strong> and French documents released in 2017, Bush and the leaders of West Germany, <strong>the U.K.</strong> and France gave similar assurances." Are former US Secretary of State James Baker and former CIA Director Robert Gates not credible enough sources?</p><p></p><p>The so-called "unverified comments" from Salon are based on declassified documents they linked to. Here's an excerpt from them:</p><p></p><p><strong>Washington D.C., December 12, 2017 –</strong> U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University (<a href="http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/" target="_blank">http://nsarchive.gwu.edu</a>).</p><p></p><p>The documents show that multiple national leaders were considering and rejecting Central and Eastern European membership in NATO as of early 1990 and through 1991, that discussions of NATO in the context of German unification negotiations in 1990 were not at all narrowly limited to the status of East German territory, and that subsequent Soviet and Russian complaints about being misled about NATO expansion were founded in written contemporaneous memcons and telcons at the highest levels.</p><p></p><p>The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.” The key phrase, buttressed by the documents, is “led to believe.”</p><p></p><p>Source: <a href="https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early" target="_blank">NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive</a></p><p></p><p>A Wikipedia article states that "The controversy regarding the legitimacy of eastward NATO expansion relates to the aftermath of the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1989" target="_blank">Revolutions of 1989</a>, when the fall of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union" target="_blank">Soviet</a>-allied <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_state" target="_blank">communist states</a> to opposition parties brought European <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spheres_of_influence" target="_blank">spheres of influence</a> into question. Russian authorities claim that agreement on non-expansion of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO" target="_blank">NATO</a> to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe" target="_blank">Eastern Europe</a> took place orally and the alliance violated it with <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO" target="_blank">its expansion</a>, while the leaders of the alliance claim that no such promise was made and that such a decision could only be made in writing. S<strong>oviet President <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Gorbachev" target="_blank">Mikhail Gorbachev</a>, who participated in the 1990 negotiations, subsequently spoke out about the existence of a "guarantee of non-expansion of NATO to the east" inconsistently, confirming its existence in some interviews and denying it in others. </strong>Among academic researchers, opinions on the existence or absence of a non-extension agreement also differ.</p><p></p><p>On February 9, 1990, at a meeting with Shevardnadze, US Secretary of State Baker said that, assuming Germany would reunite, the US favored the united Germany remaining "firmly anchored" in NATO, with which there would have to be "iron-clad guarantees that NATO's jurisdiction or forces would not move eastward." Later that day, at a meeting with Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, he acknowledged that "not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction", and he asked Gorbachev whether he would prefer a united Germany "outside of NATO that is independent and has no US forces or [...] a united Germany with ties to NATO and assurances that there would be no extension of NATO's current jurisdiction eastward." <strong>When Gorbachev replied that "a broadening of the NATO zone is not acceptable," Baker agreed. </strong>In response, the head of the Soviet state told Baker that what he had said was "very realistic" and suggested that they "think about" it. Baker, at a press conference in Moscow on the same day, made public the resulting exchange, saying that the US proposed, in order to mitigate the concerns of those east of Germany, to prevent the expansion of NATO forces in the eastern direction and stated that the unification of Germany, according to the US position, is hardly possible without "some sort of security guarantees" with regard to the advance of NATO forces or its operation to the east. In its February 13 press release sent to embassies, the US State Department said that "the Secretary [of State] made clear that the U.S. [...] supported a unified Germany within NATO, but that we were prepared to ensure that NATO's military presence would not extend further eastward."</p><p></p><p>Source: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy_regarding_the_legitimacy_of_eastward_NATO_expansion#:~:text=Soviet%20President%20Mikhail%20Gorbachev%2C%20who,and%20denying%20it%20in%20others." target="_blank">Controversy regarding the legitimacy of eastward NATO expansion - Wikipedia</a></p><p></p><p></p><p>His people are being slaughtered, which is the end result of every endless war. It's easy not to surrender when you're not on the front lines, unlike those who are conscripted.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Frank Underwood, post: 419773, member: 35"] It's not "my claim." Per the report in Salon, "As is [URL='https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early']detailed in declassified[/URL] U.S., Soviet, German, [B]British[/B] and French documents released in 2017, Bush and the leaders of West Germany, [B]the U.K.[/B] and France gave similar assurances." Are former US Secretary of State James Baker and former CIA Director Robert Gates not credible enough sources? The so-called "unverified comments" from Salon are based on declassified documents they linked to. Here's an excerpt from them: [B]Washington D.C., December 12, 2017 –[/B] U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University ([URL='http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/']http://nsarchive.gwu.edu[/URL]). The documents show that multiple national leaders were considering and rejecting Central and Eastern European membership in NATO as of early 1990 and through 1991, that discussions of NATO in the context of German unification negotiations in 1990 were not at all narrowly limited to the status of East German territory, and that subsequent Soviet and Russian complaints about being misled about NATO expansion were founded in written contemporaneous memcons and telcons at the highest levels. The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.” The key phrase, buttressed by the documents, is “led to believe.” Source: [URL='https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early']NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive[/URL] A Wikipedia article states that "The controversy regarding the legitimacy of eastward NATO expansion relates to the aftermath of the [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1989']Revolutions of 1989[/URL], when the fall of [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union']Soviet[/URL]-allied [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_state']communist states[/URL] to opposition parties brought European [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spheres_of_influence']spheres of influence[/URL] into question. Russian authorities claim that agreement on non-expansion of [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO']NATO[/URL] to [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe']Eastern Europe[/URL] took place orally and the alliance violated it with [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO']its expansion[/URL], while the leaders of the alliance claim that no such promise was made and that such a decision could only be made in writing. S[B]oviet President [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Gorbachev']Mikhail Gorbachev[/URL], who participated in the 1990 negotiations, subsequently spoke out about the existence of a "guarantee of non-expansion of NATO to the east" inconsistently, confirming its existence in some interviews and denying it in others. [/B]Among academic researchers, opinions on the existence or absence of a non-extension agreement also differ. On February 9, 1990, at a meeting with Shevardnadze, US Secretary of State Baker said that, assuming Germany would reunite, the US favored the united Germany remaining "firmly anchored" in NATO, with which there would have to be "iron-clad guarantees that NATO's jurisdiction or forces would not move eastward." Later that day, at a meeting with Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, he acknowledged that "not only for the Soviet Union but for other European countries as well it is important to have guarantees that if the United States keeps its presence in Germany within the framework of NATO, not an inch of NATO’s present military jurisdiction will spread in an eastern direction", and he asked Gorbachev whether he would prefer a united Germany "outside of NATO that is independent and has no US forces or [...] a united Germany with ties to NATO and assurances that there would be no extension of NATO's current jurisdiction eastward." [B]When Gorbachev replied that "a broadening of the NATO zone is not acceptable," Baker agreed. [/B]In response, the head of the Soviet state told Baker that what he had said was "very realistic" and suggested that they "think about" it. Baker, at a press conference in Moscow on the same day, made public the resulting exchange, saying that the US proposed, in order to mitigate the concerns of those east of Germany, to prevent the expansion of NATO forces in the eastern direction and stated that the unification of Germany, according to the US position, is hardly possible without "some sort of security guarantees" with regard to the advance of NATO forces or its operation to the east. In its February 13 press release sent to embassies, the US State Department said that "the Secretary [of State] made clear that the U.S. [...] supported a unified Germany within NATO, but that we were prepared to ensure that NATO's military presence would not extend further eastward." Source: [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy_regarding_the_legitimacy_of_eastward_NATO_expansion#:~:text=Soviet%20President%20Mikhail%20Gorbachev%2C%20who,and%20denying%20it%20in%20others.']Controversy regarding the legitimacy of eastward NATO expansion - Wikipedia[/URL] His people are being slaughtered, which is the end result of every endless war. It's easy not to surrender when you're not on the front lines, unlike those who are conscripted. [/QUOTE]
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