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Russia begins the invasion
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<blockquote data-quote="Angela Channing" data-source="post: 420365" data-attributes="member: 33"><p>I wasn't aware that Johnson described the conflict in Ukraine as a proxy war, mainly because people in the UK generally have stopped paying attention to his lies and the other attention seeking nonsense that he spouts. It amazes me that anyone still thinks anything Johnson says should be taken seriously.</p><p></p><p>I have no idea what the Wikipedia or I'm not a woman references are about.</p><p></p><p>Of course I'm concerned about the loss of any life whether it is in Gaza or Ukraine and whether it is Ukrainian, Russian, Israeli or Palestinian lives being lost. I am generally against war but I also think that people should have the freedom to live their lives as they choose as long as they are not harming anyone else. I'm not saying that Ukraine should continue fighting, I'm saying they should be allowed to make the decision they think is right for themselves and we should support them because that upholds international law. It's easy for you to say to say the Ukrainians should surrender to Russia to save lives when you personally wouldn't have to live under Putin's brutal, undemocratic, totalitarian regime.</p><p></p><p>Unlike you, I think the days should be long gone when superpowers play God and carve up territories according to what suited them rather than what suited the people whose land they were taking away. That's what they did to Palestine to create the state of Israel and look at the mess that caused so why should we make a similar mistake with Ukraine?</p><p></p><p>People should be allowed to determine their own fate, whether they be Palestinian or Ukrainian.</p><p></p><p>By the way, Israelis, like Britons and Americans, can be white, black or any other race.</p><p></p><p></p><p>To me "woke" means to be alert to bigotry and to call it out when you see it. I think being woke is a positive thing so when people use it as an insult, I sometimes like to question why they think it is a bad thing.</p><p></p><p>I'm not disputing any documents, I'm differentiating between something that was discussed, considered or proposed with something that was or was not agreed. If NATO agreed it wouldn't expand eastwards, why was no agreement signed by James Baker? Why was it never discussed at any NATO leaders meeting? Why was it never discussed in the UK Parliament? If this was a firm agreement between Russia and NATO, why isn't there documentation describing it in the archives of any of the other NATO countries or an agreement signed by any of the NATO heads of state?</p><p></p><p>If the Ukraine war ends now without any security guarantees, don't you think Putin would just regroup and then seek to invade more Ukrainian territory, like he did after he seized Crimea? It is that scenario which would create the endless war of Putin banking his gains and then returning to war to grab more territory. Standing up to him now is what will save more lives in the long run.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Angela Channing, post: 420365, member: 33"] I wasn't aware that Johnson described the conflict in Ukraine as a proxy war, mainly because people in the UK generally have stopped paying attention to his lies and the other attention seeking nonsense that he spouts. It amazes me that anyone still thinks anything Johnson says should be taken seriously. I have no idea what the Wikipedia or I'm not a woman references are about. Of course I'm concerned about the loss of any life whether it is in Gaza or Ukraine and whether it is Ukrainian, Russian, Israeli or Palestinian lives being lost. I am generally against war but I also think that people should have the freedom to live their lives as they choose as long as they are not harming anyone else. I'm not saying that Ukraine should continue fighting, I'm saying they should be allowed to make the decision they think is right for themselves and we should support them because that upholds international law. It's easy for you to say to say the Ukrainians should surrender to Russia to save lives when you personally wouldn't have to live under Putin's brutal, undemocratic, totalitarian regime. Unlike you, I think the days should be long gone when superpowers play God and carve up territories according to what suited them rather than what suited the people whose land they were taking away. That's what they did to Palestine to create the state of Israel and look at the mess that caused so why should we make a similar mistake with Ukraine? People should be allowed to determine their own fate, whether they be Palestinian or Ukrainian. By the way, Israelis, like Britons and Americans, can be white, black or any other race. To me "woke" means to be alert to bigotry and to call it out when you see it. I think being woke is a positive thing so when people use it as an insult, I sometimes like to question why they think it is a bad thing. I'm not disputing any documents, I'm differentiating between something that was discussed, considered or proposed with something that was or was not agreed. If NATO agreed it wouldn't expand eastwards, why was no agreement signed by James Baker? Why was it never discussed at any NATO leaders meeting? Why was it never discussed in the UK Parliament? If this was a firm agreement between Russia and NATO, why isn't there documentation describing it in the archives of any of the other NATO countries or an agreement signed by any of the NATO heads of state? If the Ukraine war ends now without any security guarantees, don't you think Putin would just regroup and then seek to invade more Ukrainian territory, like he did after he seized Crimea? It is that scenario which would create the endless war of Putin banking his gains and then returning to war to grab more territory. Standing up to him now is what will save more lives in the long run. [/QUOTE]
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