The problem with diversity demands

Emelee

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Friends showrunner Martha Kauffman is talking about her regrets about not having more diversity on Friends. David Schwimmer (Ross) says he always pushed for Ross to date women of colour.

https://people.com/tv/friends-creator-says-didnt-do-enough-diversity/

That's all fine, BUT... What actor wants to be cast simply because of your skin colour? What actor wants to wonder if he/she was only cast because he/she is a person of colour? What actor wants to be associated with a stereotypical role because the show writers don't know how to write something that isn't stereotypical for coloured people? What actor wants focus on their skin colour? What actor wants the show's fans to comment about you only being cast because the showrunners wants to be politically correct and feel good about themselves?

It's a bit too superficial to me.
 

Alexis

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I don't agree. It would be about representing the real world we live in. Not about all the things you mentioned. There were 6 main characters on FRIENDS all white. For a long time people of colour just weren't seen on shows, and still it's happening. By your reasoning the producers of shows wouldn't cast people of colour because that's just "superficial" and that's a whole other problem. We don't live in a white world so people of all ethnicities should be cast in shows. It wouldn't be oh, FRIENDS cast a token black or Asian to meet a diversity quota. It would be oh, look FRIENDS is happening in a realistic representation of New York.
That's all fine, BUT... What actor wants to be cast simply because of your skin colour?
An actor who wants the world to know they exist!
The storyline wouldn't be about the actors skin colour. They would simply be cast to show that they exist and to give equal representation.
 

Willie Oleson

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An actor who wants the world to know they exist!
And more importantly, to give them the opportunity to show what they're made off and make a name for themselves. Well, not that I knew any of the FRIENDS actors before they appeared on Friends.
I don't think a producer/director/casting agency should want them simply to represent realism, but because they're good actors. However, this process has to start somewhere and initially it will feel like positive discrimination, but it's the only way to showcase their talent (or not!) outside the typical black TV series and movies.
And the next time they will ask them because "yeah yeah he was really good in that!".

Common sense must prevail, and we must accept that some roles are not very suitable for either black or white or asian actors. A movie about the Old South with a black plantation owner and white slaves...that doesn't really help to sell your story. (although it would be fun to watch).
 

Emelee

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I don't agree. It would be about representing the real world we live in. Not about all the things you mentioned. There were 6 main characters on FRIENDS all white. For a long time people of colour just weren't seen on shows, and still it's happening. By your reasoning the producers of shows wouldn't cast people of colour because that's just "superficial" and that's a whole other problem. We don't live in a white world so people of all ethnicities should be cast in shows. It wouldn't be oh, FRIENDS cast a token black or Asian to meet a diversity quota. It would be oh, look FRIENDS is happening in a realistic representation of New York.

An actor who wants the world to know they exist!
The storyline wouldn't be about the actors skin colour. They would simply be cast to show that they exist and to give equal representation.

I think it is superficial to cast one character of colour simply because I believe many showrunner only do it to get credit for having some diversity. I don't think they fully understand the systematical racism in the world.

Many showrunners seem to think that casting ONE black actor is enough, and then they can say "we have black actors, so we are not racists". But the thing is that they only hired a black actor so that people won't call them out for being racists. So they can pat themselves on the back and feel proud for absolutely no reason.

Take a look behind the scenes. The people who writes shows, directs, light them, fix audio, make-up, clothes, location etc. Most of them are white. Most casting directors are white. Try begin to hire more black crew workers too. Not just one actor who is seen and can represent the "vast" group of black people working on the production.

The whole society is f-ed up. I recommend reading White Fragility: Why It's So Hard For White People To Talk About Racism by Robin DiAngelo. A real eye-opener to people who don't believe they are victims of being racists. But also her 2nd book What Does It Mean To Be White? She tells us that we are mis-educated about what racism really is. And it reminds me a lot about feminism - how women are blind to systematical patterns and are unconciously upholding the patriarchal world, thinking they are for equality but in reality don't have a clue how they are themselves contributing to inequality.

All those celebrities posting messages on social media are deluding themselves if they think they help against racism. People have been protesting against racism for hundreds of years. A wave of protests in June 2020 isn't gonna fix a darn thing. If the murder of Martin Luther King didn't change much, why would this? Why would a black character on every single TV Series change structural racism?

We have many more black characters on TV today compared to the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. Have racism become a smaller problem since then? Does it explain why there is racism all over and why so many racists are being elected President or Prime Ministers around the world? Fascism and right-wing groups are not declining despite more and more protests against racism. Despite more laws and despite being called out in media for racism. It makes no difference.

And that's why I think that being proud of having one black character is superficial, shallow. They have the heart in the right place, and I think the are genuine, but it won't fix anything unless they educate themselves about racism.
 

Michael Torrance

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That's all fine, BUT... What actor wants to be cast simply because of your skin colour? What actor wants to wonder if he/she was only cast because he/she is a person of colour? What actor wants to be associated with a stereotypical role because the show writers don't know how to write something that isn't stereotypical for coloured people? What actor wants focus on their skin colour? What actor wants the show's fans to comment about you only being cast because the showrunners wants to be politically correct and feel good about themselves?

Nobody. And yet white actors and actresses have experienced that for years. They were cast simply because of their white skin colour, because the audiences would supposedly not identify otherwise.
The audience identification obstacle closed the door to actors of colour for decades--even fairly recently, Keanu Reeves was actually considered a risky choice for The Matrix and Will Smith for Independence Day for these reasons. So if generations of white actors toughed it out despite belittling their artistic ability and being cast simply because no non-white needed apply, I guess actors of colour will tough it out as well.
 

Alexis

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I think it is superficial to cast one character of colour simply because I believe many showrunner only do it to get credit for having some diversity. I don't think they fully understand the systematical racism in the world.

Many showrunners seem to think that casting ONE black actor is enough, and then they can say "we have black actors, so we are not racists". But the thing is that they only hired a black actor so that people won't call them out for being racists. So they can pat themselves on the back and feel proud for absolutely no reason.

Take a look behind the scenes. The people who writes shows, directs, light them, fix audio, make-up, clothes, location etc. Most of them are white. Most casting directors are white. Try begin to hire more black crew workers too. Not just one actor who is seen and can represent the "vast" group of black people working on the production.

The whole society is f-ed up. I recommend reading White Fragility: Why It's So Hard For White People To Talk About Racism by Robin DiAngelo. A real eye-opener to people who don't believe they are victims of being racists. But also her 2nd book What Does It Mean To Be White? She tells us that we are mis-educated about what racism really is. And it reminds me a lot about feminism - how women are blind to systematical patterns and are unconciously upholding the patriarchal world, thinking they are for equality but in reality don't have a clue how they are themselves contributing to inequality.

All those celebrities posting messages on social media are deluding themselves if they think they help against racism. People have been protesting against racism for hundreds of years. A wave of protests in June 2020 isn't gonna fix a darn thing. If the murder of Martin Luther King didn't change much, why would this? Why would a black character on every single TV Series change structural racism?

We have many more black characters on TV today compared to the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. Have racism become a smaller problem since then? Does it explain why there is racism all over and why so many racists are being elected President or Prime Ministers around the world? Fascism and right-wing groups are not declining despite more and more protests against racism. Despite more laws and despite being called out in media for racism. It makes no difference.

And that's why I think that being proud of having one black character is superficial, shallow. They have the heart in the right place, and I think the are genuine, but it won't fix anything unless they educate themselves about racism.
And your answer to all of this is that show runners shouldn't cast people of colour because it's superficial.
Get on the bus and get out of town now please.
 

Emelee

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Nobody. And yet white actors and actresses have experienced that for years. They were cast simply because of their white skin colour, because the audiences would supposedly not identify otherwise.
The audience identification obstacle closed the door to actors of colour for decades--even fairly recently, Keanu Reeves was actually considered a risky choice for The Matrix and Will Smith for Independence Day for these reasons. So if generations of white actors toughed it out despite belittling their artistic ability and being cast simply because no non-white needed apply, I guess actors of colour will tough it out as well.

Oh, life is tough for white people. How they have suffered through the years. The "identification" factor is just an excuse that is in no way valid. And what it says is that "only white people watch TV". As far as I know, there's been black people in western countries for as long as there been colour-TV. Didn't they count as viewers? Didn't they want characters to identify with? I don't buy that excuse for a minute. It's just a scapegoat excuse to justify unwillingness to cast black people.
 

Emelee

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And your answer to all of this is that show runners shouldn't cast people of colour because it's superficial.
Get on the bus and get out of town now please.

Where did I say that? I mean absolutely no such thing. I am saying that their reason for casting black people is superficial. They swear off racism by casting a minimal amount of black people. And then when they finally have a couple of black actors, they often point it out very often.

The Big Bang Theory for instance. Raj is from India. And it's pointed out in next to every single episode that he's Indian. And because they point out so often that he's not like the others, they are also saying that he is different. The word "different" is seldom good. It tells us he's not normal. He's a deviant.
As much as he's a very lovable character, it gets pointed out in every scene that he's different - and it's made fun of.

I will let your "go away" comment pass. I am aware of your dislike of me and I fully accept that. We can't like everybody nor should we be forced to. However, I am allowed to voice my opinion on SC and I would appreciate it if you would not intentionally misinterpret me so badly.
 

Willie Oleson

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As far as I know, there's been black people in western countries for as long as there been colour-TV. Didn't they count as viewers?
Maybe they didn't count as consumers?
The word "different" is seldom good
But difference itself is a very good thing. I don't think we want to be colourblind in every aspect. Of course we do when it comes to equal opportunities.
 

Emelee

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Maybe they didn't count as consumers?


Well, if they didn't count, then I wonder why. Could it be because of racism?



But difference itself is a very good thing. I don't think we want to be colourblind in every aspect. Of course we do when it comes to equal opportunities.


I think different should be a good thing, but the world tells me it's not. Too many homophobes, too many misogynists, too many racists and too many rich looking down on the poor. As a teacher, I hear more than enough from pupils that tell me they would not like to be different from others.

I think that if everyone agreed that different is good, we wouldn't have this much hatred towards people who are different.

I don't think we should be colourblind, but I also don't think that it should be pointed out so much that people who are black are (add qualities), people who are from a poor neighbourhood are (add qualities) and people who are gay are (add qualities). Black person A can be a whole lot more like White person A rather than Black person B. Just because they are both black doesn't mean they have anything in common. A lesbian woman doesn't necessarily look butch. And a woman who looks butch mustn't naturally be lesbian. But people tend to ascribe qualities based on colour, sexual orientation, gender etc. Probably not even on purpose, but just because it's what society has taught them. No one is born a racist after all. I think logically we can say it and think it, but we are taught something else by patterns in society that we don't analyse or think twice about.


I think we have free will to some extent, but since we were born, we have been drilled by the society we live in and it has shaped us as humans. So as much as I would like to think I am 0% racist, 0% homophobic, 0% misogynist etc, I really don't think that I am. I have barely scraped the surface of social studies that try to uncover hidden patterns in society, but the little that I have read and been educated about makes me doubt it. It's not like I would be labelled those unflattering names, but I grew up in a society where the white straight rich man has all privileges possible. I check most those boxes myself except "rich" and "male". How could that not have formed me? How could the "normal" when I grew up not have shaped me? Social studies and psychology tell me that people don't like being different in a way that will cause others to look down on me. We are not encouraged to be too different. If we are to be different, we must be better different. Better than the normal. French philosopher wrote books about how we all self-police to fit in as good as we possibly can so society won't judge us as deviants. It was true in the 1970s and it's true now. Social media screams it. We don't post pictures of ourselves where we think we look bad. We want to show off our happiness and how nice we are. We post pictures of our food only when the food looks good or is special to humble brag.


But......... what is the solution? I only really write about all the problems I see as though I knew what the solution is. But I really don't have a clue. If I did, I'd write a book. But I am convinced the solution isn't easy and that the problems are so deeply rooted in society that no one has uncovered it all.


To tie it back to the topic of TV Series, I don't blame the showrunners for their ignorance. I think we are all ignorant, me included. But I do have a problem with showrunners casting one black actor among all white actors and thinking that shows that they so awesome and upstanding people for showing diversity. Keep on casting people of colour, but don't think you're angelic for it. No one will pat you on the back for getting up from bed in the morning. No one should pat you on the back for hiring a person of colour either. You're not the Messiah for doing so. Especially not if you will keep on pointing out that the person is of colour, or worse - writing the character as being different from the "normal" whities. Like Raj on The Big Bang Theory as an example.
 

Rove

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Friends showrunner Martha Kauffman is talking about her regrets about not having more diversity on Friends. David Schwimmer (Ross) says he always pushed for Ross to date women of colour.
Hang on. Did I blink and miss Ross dating Charlie as played by Aisha Tyler? I thought the the two characters had great chemistry but of course we all knew this relationship was going to end because everyone kept advocating for Ross and Rachel to get back together...again. Ross also dated Julie as played by Lauren Tom an actress of Chinese descent.

For a long time people of colour just weren't seen on shows, and still it's happening.

In this regard Alexis I have to disagree with you. One of the best sitcoms I remember growing up was Good Times and it was released in 1974! Here in Australia most series were imported from England or America. American programs were and still are well represented by African American people. So your comment "and still it's happening" appears to be out of step to what I watch on television or streaming services.
 

Frank Underwood

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In this regard Alexis I have to disagree with you. One of the best sitcoms I remember growing up was Good Times and it was released in 1974! Here in Australia most series were imported from England or America. American programs were and still are well represented by African American people. So your comment "and still it's happening" appears to be out of step to what I watch on television or streaming services.
I grew up in the 80s and 90s, and there were quite a few sitcoms with black casts. The Cosby Show, The Fresh Prince of Bel Air, Family Matters, and Hangin' with Mr. Cooper were all popular sitcoms back then. Nell Carter was the lead character on Gimme a Break, but she wasn't just the "token black person" among a white cast. If anything, she was the main draw.

Emelee said:
The whole society is f-ed up. I recommend reading White Fragility: Why It's So Hard For White People To Talk About Racism by Robin DiAngelo. A real eye-opener to people who don't believe they are victims of being racists. But also her 2nd book What Does It Mean To Be White? She tells us that we are mis-educated about what racism really is. And it reminds me a lot about feminism - how women are blind to systematical patterns and are unconciously upholding the patriarchal world, thinking they are for equality but in reality don't have a clue how they are themselves contributing to inequality.
These days, the SJWs have created a hierarchy of what they consider to be inherently evil. It starts with being male, followed by being cisgender, then straight, and finally being white.

If you happen to be all four, you're basically Hitler in their eyes. It's all so patronizing too. We all supposedly promote racism, misogyny, and homophobia even if we're unaware of it!
 

Alexis

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In this regard Alexis I have to disagree with you. One of the best sitcoms I remember growing up was Good Times and it was released in 1974! Here in Australia most series were imported from England or America. American programs were and still are well represented by African American people. So your comment "and still it's happening" appears to be out of step to what I watch on television or streaming services.
Sitcoms aren't the only kind of TV show. And I admit that things are better now but when you think of a lot of American dramas they are and have been very white-washed. Look at Dallas for instance in 12 seasons the only person of colour on the show that I recall was a waitress who wasn't even a main cast member. In 12 seasons!

EDIT- And I seem to recall Diahann Carroll actually saying she was told she would never be on Dallas. There must be a quote somewhere, I recall it being discussed on these forums.
 
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Emelee

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I think a better way than having a coloured character and pointing out that he or she is coloured is to focus on the everyday racial issues. Why not have a white hero type suddenly say or do something that offends their coloured friends/partner/relative/co-worker? Not because he or she is a racist, but to actually be true to the world -- that we sometimes completely inadvertently offend people. You don't have to be a racist to accidentally say something that you didn't even know would offend a coloured person. Just like some men and some women may say something to the opposite gender that offends them and with gay/straight/bi.

Instead of throwing in a black person and thinking "I'm not a racist cause I just hired a black man", do something productive with that choice. We are all aware that most people have prejudice opinions about others. It may be that a single woman in her 30s probably have a cat (it's been assumed of me by two male pupils - I have to let them down and reveal I have a dog). I myself have prejudice opinions about people who go on national TV to confront someone. I automatically get an image of how an adult woman is who is obsessed with wearing Hello Kitty or My Little Pony clothes. So why not build some drama around that real-life problem? Why not have a white hero character show he or she isn't perfect by showing some unawareness of his or her prejudice about how black people are? Then maybe viewers will start to use their brain and analyse themselves. Nothing will ever happen if we don't start with ourselves instead of only pointing out others. And that's what I think many showrunners ignore. They think that just by casting black people, they are in no way attributing to any form of racism. And my main point is that it's not that simple. It won't fix anything by thinking there is an easy solution to such a deep problem. Don't focus too much about having black characters - shift the focus to how we all contribute to uphold the social hierarchy. If only the bad guys on shows show signs of racism, we inadvertently say that only bad people are racists - therefore, we good guys have no responsibility because "we are not the problem". I think we are all part of the problem because we live in a society and we accept social constructions too much, by for example not challenging our own prejudice.
 

Alexis

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But what you are suggesting is that TV shows adopt some preachy 1960s/70s mentality where the basis of having a black person on the show is to educate the world and explain to us all what prejudice and racism is. That's not realistic. Can you imagine that happening seriously? That in every TV show that has a diverse cast there would have to be such a storyline. That is not what needs to happen. There just needs to be an equal amount of roles for non-whites as there are for white people. Not every black actor wants to come on to a show and do a storyline about race and prejudices. They want to act, the same as all other actors.
 
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