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Diane Baker in 2019 at age 81:
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Diane Baker in 2019 at age 81:
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I got in touch with our friendly moderator @Mel O'Drama and got the title of this thread changed to Grande Dame Guignol. Snarky mentioned that is an alternative nickname for this sub-genre some three years ago, but I just got around to asking them to change it.
For me, I always thought of the sub-genre as "Hag Horror" for many years, but I'd agree that "Grande Dame Guignol" is a more appealing name, especially for a discussion as healthy and long-lasting as ours has been here.
On the face of it, however, I'd probably say that different movies in the sub-genre could be better categorized under the different names. BABY JANE and CHARLOTTE are definitely "Grande Dame Guignol", while I'd be more apt to say that movies like STRAIT-JACKET would be "Hag Horror", and I'd call something like WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH HELEN? the more derogatory "Psycho-Biddy".
For me, I always thought of the sub-genre as "Hag Horror" for many years, but I'd agree that "Grande Dame Guignol" is a more appealing name, especially for a discussion as healthy and long-lasting as ours has been here.
On the face of it, however, I'd probably say that different movies in the sub-genre could be better categorized under the different names. BABY JANE and CHARLOTTE are definitely "Grande Dame Guignol", while I'd be more apt to say that movies like STRAIT-JACKET would be "Hag Horror", and I'd call something like WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH HELEN? the more derogatory "Psycho-Biddy".
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It would be one of my favorite genres if, as you say, more of them were better... I mean, everybody loves bitchy old babes brandishing blades barbarically.
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Hag horror / psycho biddy / grand dame guignol is a very distinct but limited genre. If kept to those directly of the BABY JANE variety, there's only around a half dozen: a couple great, a couple good, a couple lousy. If expanded to include any horror movie featuring a past-her-prime film queen, the number goes up but the quality ratio plummets; those peripheral films are dismal.
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WHATEVER HAPPENED TO BABY JANE? is being re-released to theaters in 2022!!
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A breakdown of STRAIT-JACKET, the Joan Crawford hagsploitation effort by director William Castle.
Yeah, inside the BABY JANE mold, you have a few movies that could be slid in there:
HUSH...HUSH, SWEET CHARLOTTE
DEAD RINGER
STRAIT-JACKET
THE NIGHT WALKER
But those movies vary vastly in quality. Only CHARLOTTE really can hold a candle to BABY JANE, even though DEAD RINGER is a pretty good B-movie, and an excellent showcase for Bette Davis to play twins.
HUSH...HUSH, SWEET CHARLOTTE
DEAD RINGER
STRAIT-JACKET
THE NIGHT WALKER
But those movies vary vastly in quality. Only CHARLOTTE really can hold a candle to BABY JANE, even though DEAD RINGER is a pretty good B-movie, and an excellent showcase for Bette Davis to play twins.
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THE NANNY stands head & shoulders with a pillow over incompetent STRAIT-JACKET or adequate DEAD RINGER. I even like THE NANNY more than BABY JANE.
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I've yet to watch all of THE NANNY thus far, but since I've recently acquired it on my laptop, I just might be compelled to actually finishing it.
STRAIT-JACKET is shlocky trash, but for me, it's addictive trash. And Joan Crawford does a pretty good job in it, despite the weak direction and poor execution of what could-have-been a deservedly delicious campy thriller.
Like you have said here before, DEAD RINGER is far better than STRAIT-JACKET, and it offers a strong performance from Bette Davis. It has a crisp, clear production too, apparently higher than some of the other efforts at extending the brand.
This is inconceivable to me considering I haven't finished THE NANNY yet. But even once I finish it, I find it hard that any of the follow-ups will displace BABY JANE for me.
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Crawford's great in STRAIT-JACKET, but the film just doesn't support her ... it's a C-movie.
Its potential is immense, and I often redirect it in my head into something more polished and creepy.
Pity.
For me, BABY JANE comes in third behind CHARLOTTE and THE NANNY. One can only imagine how Crawford remaining in CHARLOTTE might have changed the end result.
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It's a shame something so potentially creepy as STRAIT-JACKET ended up such a mess. But Castle thought he was going to make his masterpiece with the movie, and Crawford promoted it endlessly, touring the country to appear at openings of the picture with her basket of small axes riding along with her. That infuriated Davis, who endlessly promoted BABY JANE (aiming to win that third Oscar), but Crawford didn't do too much publicly for their movie, which Davis found foolish.
BABY JANE easily comes in first place for me. Not only is it one of my favorite movies, I believe Davis and Crawford both turn in strong performances, and it's definitely helped cement their place in pop culture, even if their legends have been morphed down to (mostly) one movie.
I do really enjoy CHARLOTTE, and I think it's second best when in comparison to BABY JANE. I might be inclined to like it more if Joan had stuck it out and stayed on as Miriam. I've never been a big fan of Olivia, although I think she offers a sly and breezy contrast to Bette's Charlotte that echoes well for what the movie's going for. CHARLOTTE is one of those movies that I have recast in my head a few different times. Naturally, I've recast Olivia with Joan, but I've also toyed with the idea of either Barbara Stanwyck, Vivien Leigh, or even Loretta Young stepping in for Joan.
Having the production stills of Joan as Miriam helps with the fantasy of having her in the finished product.
I do really enjoy CHARLOTTE, and I think it's second best when in comparison to BABY JANE. I might be inclined to like it more if Joan had stuck it out and stayed on as Miriam. I've never been a big fan of Olivia, although I think she offers a sly and breezy contrast to Bette's Charlotte that echoes well for what the movie's going for. CHARLOTTE is one of those movies that I have recast in my head a few different times. Naturally, I've recast Olivia with Joan, but I've also toyed with the idea of either Barbara Stanwyck, Vivien Leigh, or even Loretta Young stepping in for Joan.
Having the production stills of Joan as Miriam helps with the fantasy of having her in the finished product.
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Joan's look in I SAW WHAT YOU DID (1965) comes closest to what she might have been like had she ridden out the turbulence from Bette on CHARLOTTE --- plus, both movies had the same cinematographer, Joseph Biroc (if only he'd filmed the poorly shot STRAIT-JACKET).
ISWYD was still a William Castle movie, but it's much better technically than STRAIT-JACKET.
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Comparing the stills we have of Joan on the CHARLOTTE set to the finished product of I SAW WHAT YOU DID, the look she has in both is certainly similar. I recall purchasing the latter on DVD and having the distinct impression that I wished --- I mean I really, really wish --- Joan could've toughened up and finished CHARLOTTE, if only for my pleasure. There's something so unexplainably special about seeing Davis and Crawford battle it out in deliciously campy B&W.
Had the Davis-Crawford work relationship been more cordial, one wonders if producers would've produced more films starring the duo. Would WHAT EVER HAPPEEND TO AUNT ALICE? or maybe even WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH HELEN? been more Davis-Crawford pictures? And I hear that there was supposed to be another one called WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO DEAR ALVA? possibly starring the pair.
Had the Davis-Crawford work relationship been more cordial, one wonders if producers would've produced more films starring the duo. Would WHAT EVER HAPPEEND TO AUNT ALICE? or maybe even WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH HELEN? been more Davis-Crawford pictures? And I hear that there was supposed to be another one called WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO DEAR ALVA? possibly starring the pair.
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But it was their lack of cordiality that made their pairing so notable -- their similarities and their differences.
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Quite true. Yet each of them spoke professionally when asked about one another. Well, at least until Joan passed.
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Oh, not always.
Most interviews I've seen (or heard) made when Joan was still alive seem like they spoke vaguely positive of one another. Bette apparently appreciated Joan as a professional, and Joan evidently felt the same. Bette was very outspoken about her distaste for Joan, especially towards the end of her life.
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Yes, it's a shame she wasn't making the movie she thought she was making. Few stars equaled Joan's ability to elevate trash, but even she couldn't surmount overt ineptitude. Even a workmanlike director should have been able to make a nifty film with the basics here, but William Castle was only a step above Ed Wood.
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Yeah, Crawford had a really unique quality to elevate lesser quality films, but not even she could truly make STRAIT-JACKET a great movie.
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And STRAIT-JACKET may be close to his worst, in terms of cinematic competence. In every scene you can see what Castle ought to be doing --- but clearly isn't, and that's what makes it so difficult for me.
Even HOMICIDAL and I SAW WHAT YOU DID are refined films in comparison.
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