Christina Pike survives execution attempt

[CryptCreeper72]

Yes, to the entire post above. That's why I have been making the point over and over again that everything isn't always about gender.

Can an argument be made that women dominated industries are less valued? Yes. But, as has been pointed out, so are many male dominated industries. It's not about gender - it's about what our society - or at least those who control our society - values.

To me, this discussion went of the rails because of the assertion that women make less money because of their poor choices or because they refuse to do the "difficult" jobs. That's ridiculous - especially if you don't make the same assertion about men who work in industries that are under valued and underpaid.

 

[Frankenstein Underworld]

Yes, to the entire post above. That's why I have been making the point over and over again that everything isn't always about gender.

Can an argument be made that women dominated industries are less valued? Yes. But, as has been pointed out, so are many male dominated industries. It's not about gender - it's about what our society - or at least those who control our society - values.

To me, this discussion went of the rails because of the assertion that women make less money because of their poor choices or because they refuse to do the "difficult" jobs. That's ridiculous - especially if you don't make the same assertion about men who work in industries that are under valued and underpaid.

I think you're basically spot on. However, it appears some people are making the argument that women are being "kept out" of male-dominated fields because of sexism. In that regard, what I've read suggests that this is where personal choices come into play. You said it yourself that men are physically stronger, which makes them more likely to choose physically demanding jobs. Of course, that doesn't mean teaching or nursing are easy by any means, but then most of us acknowledge that women and men often work undervalued jobs. The gender wars are just another tactic the oligarchs use to divide the masses and keep us fighting amongst ourselves. It's all a distraction from the classist system they set up to screw over the working class as a whole.

Unfortunately, some people want to come at it from one angle. That's why they see "sexism" rather than "classism," and it's also why these same people seemingly downplay evil women like Christa Pike. In turn, a steady diet of anti-male bs has also made some men defensive (understandably so IMO.)

 

[Sea - Boo! - Er]

Consider yourself corrected. I said no such thing.

Not explicitly, but your arguments seemed to imply it. Nevertheless, I accept your clarification.

I’m not convinced that teachers get paid less because it’s female dominated -

It's more that, because these occupations are female-dominated, they bring down the average female wage.

To me, this discussion went of the rails because of the assertion that women make less money because of their poor choices or because they refuse to do the "difficult" jobs. That's ridiculous - especially if you don't make the same assertion about men who work in industries that are under valued and underpaid.

Agree to this.

 

[Spooky Owl!]

Not explicitly, but your arguments seemed to imply it. Nevertheless, I accept your clarification.

In other words, I didn't say it. Smug straw-woman agrumentation notwithstanding.

 

[Angela Chilling]

I’m not convinced that teachers get paid less because it’s female dominated - high school teaching, for example is not female dominated it’s much more balanced but teachers will never get paid as much as those work in the private sector - but they will get paid a lot more than many make dominated professions.

It's not about gender - it's about what our society - or at least those who control our society - values.

However, it appears some people are making the argument that women are being "kept out" of male-dominated fields because of sexism.

It's more that, because these occupations are female-dominated, they bring down the average female wage.

The teaching profession is a good example of how unconscious bias in favour of men results in them being paid more. Data shows that male teachers are disproportionately more likely to be promoted to senior leadership and headteacher positions compared to female teachers even though women make up a greater percentage of the overall teaching workforce. Male teachers achieve their first leadership role a third faster than female teachers and proportionately, greater number of male teachers are promoted. In secondary schools, women make up roughly 62% of the workforce in the UK but account for only 38% of secondary headships, meaning men are disproportionately given senior jobs despite being a minority in the staff overall.

So if it's just about class and not gender, how would you explain this disparity in the teaching profession? (Spoiler alert: it is about gender).

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/men-get-promoted-more-quickly-and-4-other-findings-from-new-school-leadership-research/

 

[Frankenstein Underworld]

As I said before, gender bias and discrimination still exist to some degree. However, that doesn't mean it's the main reason so many jobs are undervalued, including many of the jobs that are male dominated. I mean, it's not like society looks highly on trash collectors or janitors either. That's where classism comes into play. In regard to the "wage gap," the choices people make in terms of education, careers, and their personal lives also play a role.

Much of that comes down to the different strengths, abilities, and aspirations men and women have (which I previously touched on.) For example, mothers in particular are more likely to reduce their hours or take time off to handle child care. This shouldn't be their sole responsibility, of course, but society has long considered women to be more nurturing by nature (although that's clearly not always the case.)

It's also why some people still have the misguided belief that there'd be "no wars" if women ran the world (despite the evidence to the contrary.) Obama even said recently that things would "be better" if women ran the government, despite the fact that he chose a male VP and ran against Hillary Clinton in 2008. And when he chose Clinton for Secretary of State, she proved to be a huge war monger in her own right. Go figure.

As far as teaching in particular goes, men also leave the teaching profession at a higher rate than women due to lower average wages than the corporate sector. Thus, they are often promoted quicker as a retention strategy. I certainly don't think that's fair, and I think a better solution would be to pay all teachers a fair wage, but this promotion strategy isn't representative of the classist job structure as a whole.

As far as secondary schools in the US are concerned, men make up about 40% of the workforce. However, they're also more likely to get their start in secondary schools. As a result of this, they're often first in line for a promotion to executive headship positions. Men are also more likely to seek out school administration positions, while women are more likely to favor classroom instructor positions.

 

[Sea - Boo! - Er]

In other words, I didn't say it. Smug straw-woman agrumentation notwithstanding.

No, you didn't say it, except by your repeated assertion that women choose "easier" jobs.

 

[Spooky Owl!]

No, you didn't say it, except by your repeated assertion that women choose "easier" jobs.

Which are two entirely different things. And no one here asserted that some of women's jobs aren't hard.

 

[Sea - Boo! - Er]

Which are two entirely different things. And no one here asserted that some of women's jobs aren't hard.

You can deny it if you like but characterising a job as easier automatically assigns it a lesser value.

 

[Frankenstein Underworld]

You can deny it if you like but characterising a job as easier automatically assigns it a lesser value.

"Easier" is a relative term. I worked call center jobs, and while it wasn't exactly ditch digging, it could be mentally taxing at times. And yet the corporations I worked for felt it was only worth minimum wage. Many jobs are valued lesser than they should be based on the perceived degree of difficulty. It doesn't mean they should be valued less, but then we've already established that. If women are more likely to choose those types of jobs than men, it doesn't necessarily mean they're valued less because of their gender. Because when men enter those same professions, the value of the job usually doesn't go up.