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It might've been both.
It might've been both.
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I thought of this today when I read this article about attitudes towards who pays the bill on first dates.
“If a man asks on a first date to split the bill you should say to him: ‘Sure, do you want to be friends? I split the bill with my friends not with men I'm dating’’
'I'd be put off if he asked to split it': Who should pay on a first date?
Some insist on splitting the bill, others say the asker should pay, while many still see a man paying as romantic.
www.bbc.co.uk
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I get why gold diggers perpetuate the idea that men should happily provide for their every need, but I don't get the men who also believe this is some sort of noble virtue.
I suppose this one-sided situation is romantic, so long as you're on the receiving end of it.
When I was young and naive, I thought love was about an emotional bond between two people. Sadly, the reality is often colder. It seems relationships are often transactional. As a lifelong bachelor, I used to feel like I was missing something when I was younger. The more I see and hear today, the more I feel like I dodged a bullet. I saw how some girls liked to toy with guys and play games with them in high school. I know all women aren't like that, but it was enough to make me think relationships weren't worth the effort.
My parents also went through a nasty divorce, and now my sister's going through the same thing. What a hassle.
I suppose this one-sided situation is romantic, so long as you're on the receiving end of it.
When I was young and naive, I thought love was about an emotional bond between two people. Sadly, the reality is often colder. It seems relationships are often transactional. As a lifelong bachelor, I used to feel like I was missing something when I was younger. The more I see and hear today, the more I feel like I dodged a bullet. I saw how some girls liked to toy with guys and play games with them in high school. I know all women aren't like that, but it was enough to make me think relationships weren't worth the effort.
My parents also went through a nasty divorce, and now my sister's going through the same thing. What a hassle.
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Regarding the "who pays the bill on the first date," George Costanza(Seinfeld) had a good.idea when he said he doesn't mind paying the bill, but she should at least reach for her purse so he can say, "No, I've got this." She doesn't have to pay, but the "reach" is appreciated. If a woman can judge a man by if he pays on the first date(not saying all do), then a man can judge a woman by whether or not she reaches for he purse.
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Yes, and you're not just rationalizing your disappointment in order to feel better by saying, "I used to feel like I was missing something when I was younger. The more I see and hear today, the more I feel like I dodged a bullet."
You're actually right. Very few relationships, once you see inside them, are something you would genuinely want for yourself or emulate. Even the ones that last and appear to work, once you see behind the veneer, you'll be disillusioned by what you find.. They are usually mutually frustrated, resent their partner (if comfortably so) and remain together out of familiarity (not that familiarity is necessarily a bad thing) and partly want to escape but remain because they're getting older and don't really know what else to do.
Finding two people who not only have that chemical spark required but are also mutually interested in the welfare of the other, and have mutual good will, is nearly astronomically unlikely... It happens, but not a lot... And the alternative result is a series of grisly personal disasters, one after the other, ruining one's life -- sometimes permanently. It's chaos instead of connubial comfort.
While people are imperfect and go through their own phases, the simple truth is that there is very little love in the world or the human psyche --- that's not my being negative; it's just the way people are wired. They 'want' but not 'love' -- and aren't able to tell the difference, even in themselves, until it's essentially too late. (Especially in marriage, where the family courts -- the only courts which are profit-driven --are so ridiculously biased towards the wife that it should be a scandal discussed in the mainstream media ad nauseum, yet isn't.
Change the courts before pushing for traditional marriage. But don't expect that to happen anytime soon.
I suppose, biologically, men want sex to disseminate their DNA while women want resources in order to provide for those potential offspring. That may be completely natural, but the details can be (and usually are) pretty damned ugly... and nearly everybody regrets, rightly or wrongly -- openly or privately -- those relationships and want to get away from it... That's simply the melancholy way of the world. So people who've had minimal success romantically really shouldn't bemoan it, but they're probably too immersed in their own sadness over what they've "missed" to realize it.
And the post-breakup/divorce negativity usually lasts far longer than the brief (often delusional) giddiness of a new romance.
I mean, it's just true. But instead of being embittered or emotionally gutted by all of that (bad relationships that ended badly, or very few or no relationships at all) it's useful to look at how those things play out for other people: despite surface social appearances, it's a nightmare for them, too, those folks who seem to have 'normal' personal lives; there's mostly regret and, if the couple stays together, feeling trapped and unable to escape, hopefully able to make some peace with that and sometimes not.
Now, that's not exactly my experience relationship-wise. (I had unusually good taste from early on, and when relationships ended, it remained a positive memory; and I can embrace temporariness when circumstances change). But same-gender relationships, especially male, are kind of different: lesbians have the highest level of domestic violence (and divorce), gay-male relationships have the lowest level of domestic violence (and divorce), and straight couples are in the middle... Obviously, there are plenty of exceptions, but what does that tell you??
In general, women are more naturally aggressive than men (as the woman who shot Andy Warhol would tell us) and, as such, are more likely to achieve her transactional goals of extracting resources than are most men (who are not as successfully sexually predatory as reputation would have it -- most straight guys are not the 'Chad and Tyrone' players stereotype we envision)... She may not get all she wants, but she's likely to get more of it than he does romantically.
It's important that she receive as many assets (often his) as possible. And everything is geared towards that in the culture... 85 percent of the consumer dollars are spent by women (and she's not just buying diapers or groceries for the fam), so she's the one tossing all that money up to the real patriarchy at the top: the superrich corporations. (Which is why all the commercials today, and much of the entertainment, is tonally skewed to flatter her at every turn).
And speaking of gay shit, even the usual traditional admonition of male homosexuality is about the redirection of all male attention, protection and resources to women as per usual -- such that false hints or outright accusations of homosexuality directed towards straight men (who don't provide to her what she wants) are made as often as truthful accusations; in order for him to avoid 'shame' by getting the 'validation' of women (or just being coupled with women) he must focus his resources and attention towards her. (And don't be fooled by current pro-gay sentiments among quasi-leftist women, whose acceptance of male-homosexuality falls apart pretty quickly, and who's pushed a ridiculously outrageous "pro-LGBTQIA+++" agenda in order to hurt gay male rights in the long run).
And while I'm not saying it's easy growing up a little lesbian girl, there have been some countries in the past which have maintained harsh laws against male homosexuality while lesbianism received social disapproval yet wasn't criminalized. And why? Because lesbianism doesn't take anything away from women, but male homosexuality certainly does (and the accusation of which is useful against straight men to get 'em in line).
Is all of this conscious? Probably not entirely. But it doesn't make any difference. It all turns out the same way.
Back to dating: feminism has always cherry-picked equality. The movement isn't holy. And it has always mostly been about maintaining traditional male obligations while eliminating -- or attempting to eliminate -- women's reciprocal obligations.
Has it worked? In some ways, yes. But the women are as unhappy as ever, and the guys are only a wee bit happier if they can stay out of the fringe of all of it.
And women lie far more often after -- or even during -- relationships (as I've discovered in my platonic friendships with women) while men mostly don't talk about it at all.
So, yes, you've dodged a bullet.
There's a reason the religious texts warn about female nature. And it's not because they're 'patriarchal documents'.
Women are more assertive and restless by nature; most men are more placid and accepting of his own circumstances. (Yes, more men are involved in warfare, as the feminists often point out, but few of those men want to be in those wars -- they're sent there by male rulers, but female rulers, though fewer in number, are statistically much more warlike in contrast... which is probably why it's not an anthropological mistake that there have been much fewer).
Bitterness and anger are pointless. It's understandable perhaps, but it's also a form of denial and a waste of time.
It's war indeed between men and women. And she has the edge. So sometimes the best thing you can do is to opt out. If possible. But that requires knowing what's actually going on.
Once you see it, you can't unsee it.
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I've always believed that if I invite a woman out on a first date then I would pay unless she insists on paying her share. If a woman invites me out on a date (yeah, wishful thinking!) then the expectation would be that she would pay, although I would offer to pay my share of the bill.
It's not just a female or male thing. If I had 2 tickets to a football match and I asked a male friend to go with me, I wouldn't expect him to pay for the ticket unless I specifically asked him to buy the ticket from me before he agreed to accompany me.
It's not just a female or male thing. If I had 2 tickets to a football match and I asked a male friend to go with me, I wouldn't expect him to pay for the ticket unless I specifically asked him to buy the ticket from me before he agreed to accompany me.
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My first date with my husband - he made reservations at a fancy and expensive restaurant. I didn't feel right about it as I was a single mother struggling financially and there was no way I could help pay. So, I suggested we order a pizza, stay in, and use to evening to talk and get to know one another. He was shocked that I didn't greedily accept an expensive steak dinner from a man - who I may or may not ever see again.
And yeah, I agree with snarky that women ARE generally more agressive and dishonest. I actually think that's a natural instinct - almost a defense mechanism. We're bread to be mothers - protectors. Aggression is part of the instinct that helps us protect our child and dishonesty is part of the instinct that helps us provide (or find others to provide).
And yeah, I agree with snarky that women ARE generally more agressive and dishonest. I actually think that's a natural instinct - almost a defense mechanism. We're bread to be mothers - protectors. Aggression is part of the instinct that helps us protect our child and dishonesty is part of the instinct that helps us provide (or find others to provide).
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@Snarky Oracle! , how does the LGBTQIAA movement hurt gay male rights in the long run? I'm curious to hear you elaborate.
In one of the administrative departments where I work they hired all women to staff it. It has gotten a bad reputation because of toxic behavior and the harassment by them of a male coworker in another department. The president had to step in to address it. Now they're targeting him. I.dont know exactly how this fits into the conversation but the school nurse, a woman, told the president, "You hired too many women in one department. Women are too power hungry."
In one of the administrative departments where I work they hired all women to staff it. It has gotten a bad reputation because of toxic behavior and the harassment by them of a male coworker in another department. The president had to step in to address it. Now they're targeting him. I.dont know exactly how this fits into the conversation but the school nurse, a woman, told the president, "You hired too many women in one department. Women are too power hungry."
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Well, the LGBTQIA+++ movement of the last few woke-y years has pushed the transmania stuff so much (I guess drag queen story hour is too funny to think about, but pushing sexual orientation issues in kindergarten seems a bit much) that it's created a backlash against gay rights to some degree. But after gay marriage was made federal law in 2015, the professional activists needed something new to protest for, and attitudes towards basic gay rights dropped because of the excesses.
And it's the white, middleclass, quasi-progressive women who press for this this stuff. A deliberate-if-unconscious sabotage of the (male) gays?
I've had countless female lower-level supervisors over the years, and had no problem from almost any of them, except for one or two. But middle management, and upper management, were where the problems were... Sure, there are plenty of guys who are also creeps, but too many women in positions of power create different problems. Cliches exist because they're often true.
What's wrong with women is somewhat different than what's wrong with men. Female narcissism is a thing. And women's need for chaos and emotional dysregulation may be biologically tied to the care of small children (who tend to be chaotic and dysregulated by nature).
Seriously. It probably is.
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I would argue that the "activists" still should be worried about marriage equality. This particular SCOTUS doesn't give two shits about precedent. Ask the families of women who have died because doctors were afraid to treat them because they were pregnant.
Having said that, trans people do exist and deserve the same rights as everyone else, but yeah, too much focus on .002 percent of the population.
Having said that, trans people do exist and deserve the same rights as everyone else, but yeah, too much focus on .002 percent of the population.
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It's a separate subject but trans men and trans women should be able enjoy the right to be themselves just as much as gay men, lesbians and everyone else in society.
Drag queens generally aren't trans women but I don't think there is anything wrong with Drag Queen Story Hour. When I was at school, we had white women reading us books like Little Black Sambo so I think Drag Queen Story Hour would be a massive improvement on my personal experience. I would imagine drag queens would be more inclusive and make better choice when reading to children.
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Yes, I think this is common courtesy rather than being disproportionately noble.
Similarly, if you have guests in your house you don't charge them for the coffee and treats.
I once read that in Greek culture it's considered offensive to "repay" a gift with another gift as it would reduce the kindness of the gift to a banal transaction.
I'm not a very proud person but I would always try to be bigger than my money even if that first date sucks.
Traditionally-biologically, the male species chases the female (because they're horny little bastards) and the female species will decide "who" and "when". She is the prize, the victory, therefore it makes sense that she'd choose carefully.
Because of the competition, the male species must make an effort to woo his target, physically or financially or otherwise.
However (yes, there is always an "however") this doesn't necessarily make the female species more powerful because females are prone to self-deceit and confuse the efforts of the males with True Love.
Thankfully, True Love (or being in love) is often part of the process except that the male interpretation of True Love is slightly more loose or casual, and that means that the confusion and misunderstanding (he/she doesn't know what I'm saying !) is rooted in the very process that brings these two species together.
The only relationship that works flawlessly is the May-December homosexual relationship. Those people know exactly what they want.
And that's why you don't see them in soaps. They're boringly happy.
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Considering how ingrained and overemphasised reverence for women is in (western) society I can understand those men. Messages many boys receive from a young age - through family dynamics, the education system and other social interactions - plant this seed early on and reinforce it over and over again during people's most formative years.
Very true.
Yes to both, and this world would be a better place if everyone applied the same courtesy.
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If you invite someone out somewhere (be it male or female), it's reasonable to expect that person to pay unless otherwise discussed. If a person asks another person if they'd be willing to split the check before the invitation is accepted, I think that's reasonable too. It's then up to the other person whether or not they're fine with that. My issue is with the idea that it's "expected" for men to always provide for women. To me, that's the misandrist version of saying women should always put out after a date. Women rightly don't want to be a sex object, and men shouldn't have to be a personal ATM. I see it as a form of mutual respect, but certain misandrist ideas are still deeply entrenched.
As for finding a mate, the idea that it's a "competition" and the acquisition is a "prize" is such a cold reality. It's so far removed from the fantasy in my head as a kid.
I remember being ten years old and thinking I was "in love" for the first time. Sex hadn't even crossed my mind at that age, so it had nothing to do with being a "horny little bastard." I just happened to meet this girl while riding my bike in a church parking lot. She was from out of town and was visiting her grandparents. They lived in a townhouse behind the church. I never had a girl approach me and be friendly before, which was a new and exciting feeling. She was wonderful to talk to, and we hung out that entire weekend just talking, riding bikes, and swimming (her grandparents' townhouse property had a pool). It was a fleeting moment in time, but it created a fantasy in my head of what being in a relationship should be like. She basically was what I like to call a "good hang." In other words, she was a person I enjoyed being around and spending time with.
I saw her again the following summer, and things immediately felt different. Another boy came around, and I sensed that she liked him more. I remember standing while riding my bike because the hard seat was uncomfortable, and she pointed out that I had a wedgie. Of course, the boy she announced it in front of laughed. That unnecessary moment of embarrassment was a blow to the fantasy I had. During my high school years, I saw girls being catty just for the fun of it, and getting a date was, in fact, pure competition. That's when I started to see that many relationships were a power play; "what are you willing to give me in exchange for my time and affection?" That never appealed to me.
Fast forward 25 years later, and what I see on social media just makes it seem even more unappealing. The demands for a guy to be "boyfriend material" are endless from these social media influencer types, while they put forth absolutely little to no effort. Then there are the girls who viciously mock and belittle guys over male loneliness, depression, and even the male suicide rate, with many of them saying this is what men "deserve." And yet we're supposed to pretend that all men are bad and misandry doesn't exist.
It's silly, I know, but I still think of the giddiness I had over my first crush at age 10. Now that I'm in my 40s and have much more life experience, I know it couldn't have lived up to my expectations had it developed into an adult relationship. "The melancholy way of the world" is a great way to put it. Sadly, reality often fails to live up to our fantasies.
As for finding a mate, the idea that it's a "competition" and the acquisition is a "prize" is such a cold reality. It's so far removed from the fantasy in my head as a kid.
I remember being ten years old and thinking I was "in love" for the first time. Sex hadn't even crossed my mind at that age, so it had nothing to do with being a "horny little bastard." I just happened to meet this girl while riding my bike in a church parking lot. She was from out of town and was visiting her grandparents. They lived in a townhouse behind the church. I never had a girl approach me and be friendly before, which was a new and exciting feeling. She was wonderful to talk to, and we hung out that entire weekend just talking, riding bikes, and swimming (her grandparents' townhouse property had a pool). It was a fleeting moment in time, but it created a fantasy in my head of what being in a relationship should be like. She basically was what I like to call a "good hang." In other words, she was a person I enjoyed being around and spending time with.
I saw her again the following summer, and things immediately felt different. Another boy came around, and I sensed that she liked him more. I remember standing while riding my bike because the hard seat was uncomfortable, and she pointed out that I had a wedgie. Of course, the boy she announced it in front of laughed. That unnecessary moment of embarrassment was a blow to the fantasy I had. During my high school years, I saw girls being catty just for the fun of it, and getting a date was, in fact, pure competition. That's when I started to see that many relationships were a power play; "what are you willing to give me in exchange for my time and affection?" That never appealed to me.
Fast forward 25 years later, and what I see on social media just makes it seem even more unappealing. The demands for a guy to be "boyfriend material" are endless from these social media influencer types, while they put forth absolutely little to no effort. Then there are the girls who viciously mock and belittle guys over male loneliness, depression, and even the male suicide rate, with many of them saying this is what men "deserve." And yet we're supposed to pretend that all men are bad and misandry doesn't exist.
Oh, goodness yes! I've seen both miserable relationships where the people stuck it out, and the post-divorce bitterness that lasted decades. Who wouldn't want that?
It's silly, I know, but I still think of the giddiness I had over my first crush at age 10. Now that I'm in my 40s and have much more life experience, I know it couldn't have lived up to my expectations had it developed into an adult relationship. "The melancholy way of the world" is a great way to put it. Sadly, reality often fails to live up to our fantasies.
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We are aaaaall women.
The guy-women are just prettier.
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The historical significance of such books and their racial undertones is worth discussing IMO, but reading such a book with the intent to be racist is obviously abhorrent.
As for drag queens, I don't know why it ever became a thing for them to read to kids.
I'm all for freedom of expression, but some people seem a little too eager to push certain things on children. To me, drag queens will always be adult performers.