Minneapolis

[Snarky Oracle!]

People like that can never understand how one thing relates to another. They can't fathom how a party that screws its base and sabotages one of its candidates because losing to Trump is preferable just might play a role in where we are today. Nor do they care what sins presidents of the past have made that may have been more egregious, or that their unconstitutional actions in the name of the "war on terror" paved the way for Trump to go even more extreme. Even though having said all that still shows that you find Trump to be a murderous thug in his own right, the fact that a post about Trump is nuanced means you're "defending" him. Instead, you're supposed to shout "Trump bad!"

A recent study shows that, generally, men are more tolerant of their political enemies than women are of their own allies.

 

[Frank Underwood]

What you seem to be doing is hijacking every thread that is critical of Trump to attempt to turn them into attacks on Biden, Harris or Obama. It you want to have a go at the Democrats, then why not start a thread to discuss what those Democrats have done in the past unless your aim to distract from what Trump is doing? It's like KGB Active Measures which include inventing false equivalences saying everyone is bad so the original target doesn't seem so bad in comparison.

I don't know who are the people you are suggesting think ICE action in Minnesota is "worse than Gaza, Ukraine, Libya, Syria, Yemen, etc." because they are not comparable situations and are bad for very different reasons. Just because people are angry about ICE officials murdering American, doesn't mean they are also not angry about killings going on elsewhere in the world.

LMAO, I've created my own threads critical of Trump! I've also criticized him several times in this thread (including in the post you just quoted). To use a word you love, this is pure "nonsense." When it comes to bringing up past presidents, my goal isn't to "hijack" threads about Trump. I simply have a different point of view from the people who think the actions of past president's pale in comparison to Trump's. Since this is a discussion forum and not an echo chamber, of course I'm going to provide a counter argument if I disagree with a particular narrative. You only see it as a "distraction" because Trump is the only villain you hold accountable. I despise him too, but I think they should all hang.

 

[Seaviewer]

You're making excuses for one side over another. But I think you know that.

I'm not making excuses for anyone. But what I think is that your implication of moral equivalence in the way that Obama and Trump have handled the immigration issue is absurd.

 

[Frank Underwood]

I'm not making excuses for anyone. But what I think is that your implication of moral equivalence in the way that Obama and Trump have handled the immigration issue is absurd.

Right, I'm sure there was nothing cruel about mass deportations or caging undocumented immigrants in the past.

We're in agreement that Trump's making a public spectacle out of ICE's flagrant disregard for the law. However, immigration policy in the past wasn't always humane either.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I'm not making excuses for anyone. But what I think is that your implication of moral equivalence in the way that Obama and Trump have handled the immigration issue is absurd.

You clearly don't know enough about it. People were also killed during Obama's immigration activities -- and Obama deported far more than Trump has (Or did in his first time).

Trump is just a bellicose swaggerer. Obama was not.

The absurdity is your quiet subjectivity on this.

We voted Obama, and never for Trump. So what do you think our motive is?

 

[Seaviewer]

I think your motive is trying to appear even-handed by criticising both sides.

immigration policy in the past wasn't always humane either.

As I said, I'm not making excuses for anyone. I just don't see the two as equal.

Obama deported far more than Trump has (Or did in his first time).

Again this statistic. Do you really think that the raw number of Obama's deportations makes his actions equally as reprehensible?

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I think your motive is trying to appear even-handed by criticising both sides.

Yeah, that's what JockEwingFan also says about my motives. So you're in good company.

Again this statistic. Do you really think that the raw number of Obama's deportations makes his actions equally as reprehensible?

The public demeanor is different. Is that all that matters?

 

[Frank Underwood]

I think your motive is trying to appear even-handed by criticising both sides.

It has nothing to do with appearances. Even if you put the immigration issue aside, Obama still used warrantless surveillance on Americans and defended the right to kill American targets overseas. He also inherited two wars and got us into five more. Obama and Trump may be vile for different reasons, but they're still blood thirsty monsters.

As I said, I'm not making excuses for anyone. I just don't see the two as equal.

Again this statistic. Do you really think that the raw number of Obama's deportations makes his actions equally as reprehensible?

Why does it have to be equal to be reprehensible? Is killing ten people any less reprehensible than killing 100?

The fact remains that families were separated and people were caged like animals, which is exactly what Trump was criticized for (and rightly so) in his first term. The "raw number" being significantly higher than Trump's is also interesting since Democrats act appalled by Trump's anti-immigration rhetoric. Where was their "path to citizenship?"

 

[Angela Channing]

It has nothing to do with appearances. Even if you put the immigration issue aside, Obama still used warrantless surveillance on Americans and defended the right to kill American targets overseas. He also inherited two wars and got us into five more. Obama and Trump may be vile for different reasons, but they're still blood thirsty monsters.


Why does it have to be equal to be reprehensible? Is killing ten people any less reprehensible than killing 100?

The fact remains that families were separated and people were caged like animals, which is exactly what Trump was criticized for (and rightly so) in his first term. The "raw number" being significantly higher than Trump's is also interesting since Democrats act appalled by Trump's anti-immigration rhetoric. Where was their "path to citizenship?"

Trump supports ICE murdering innocent Americans but George Washington ordered the execution of American soldiers. Just how far back can we go to make Trump appear not as bad as he actually is?

Sometimes looking at the here and now is more relevant than dwelling in the past.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

ust how far back can we go to make Trump appear not as bad as he actually is?

And absolutely no one here is attempting to do that.

Sometimes looking at the here and now is more relevant than dwelling in the past.

You are the one who referenced George Washington. Is 1776 no more remote than the 2010s and 2020s?

 

[Angela Channing]

And absolutely no one here is attempting to do that.



You are the one who referenced George Washington. Is 1776 no more remote than the 2010s and 2020s?

And absolutely no one here is attempting to do that.



You are the one who referenced George Washington. Is 1776 no more remote than the 2010s and 2020s?

My neighbour's house is on fire but instead of trying to put out the flames right now, let's instead have a chat about how another house burnt down 10 years ago.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

My neighbour's house is on fire but instead of trying to put out the flames right now, let's instead have a chat about how another house burnt down 10 years ago.

But I thought the other house was now 250 years old...???

Why not put out both fires, because the Democratic embers are still burning, and will return to full rage in a couple of years -- because their actual policies will be almost identical!

i.e., It's the same fire -- and it's coming from inside the house! (White House, House of Reps, Senate, et al...)

 

[Frank Underwood]

Trump supports ICE murdering innocent Americans but George Washington ordered the execution of American soldiers. Just how far back can we go to make Trump appear not as bad as he actually is?

Sometimes looking at the here and now is more relevant than dwelling in the past.

And yet nobody here is trying to "make Trump appear not as bad as he actually is." However, there are people trying to make his direct predecessors and the most recent Democratic nominee seem not as bad as they are. That's why George Washington isn't mentioned, but Obama, Biden, and Harris are. But then I think you probably know that.

The past influences the present and can be a reflection of it. Of course I condemn Trump's support for ICE murdering innocent Americans, just as I've condemned his war mongering in Gaza, Iran, and Venezuela. That's why the idea that I'm trying to make him appear "not as bad as he actually is" is absolutely ridiculous. However, I also recognize that the world is nuanced. When I hear people defending the Democrats and criticizing people for not voting for them, I'm going to provide a counter argument because I have a different point of view. American politics only offers two viable choices, but they're thoroughly rotten because the system is corrupt. That's why I don't support either side.

 

[Seaviewer]

Why does it have to be equal to be reprehensible? Is killing ten people any less reprehensible than killing 100?

I think here we have the crux of the disagreement. I didn't say they had to be equal to be reprehensible. I said "as reprehensible." And I would argue that, yes, ten is less reprehensible than 100. For some reason, you and @Snarky Oracle! seem to want to equate all bad deeds of all administrations and place yourselves above it all. In the real world, one often has to make choices between greater and lesser evils.

 

[Frank Underwood]

I think here we have the crux of the disagreement. I didn't say they had to be equal to be reprehensible. I said "as reprehensible." And I would argue that, yes, ten is less reprehensible than 100. For some reason, you and @Snarky Oracle! seem to want to equate all bad deeds of all administrations and place yourselves above it all. In the real world, one often has to make choices between greater and lesser evils.

I don't play the "as reprehensible" game. Evil is evil to me, period. As an American "in the real world," voting is not compulsory. Thus, I don't have to choose between evils. However, if I were forced to vote for the sake of argument, I'd continue to vote third party or for a write-in candidate. If refusing to vote for thugs means I'm "placing myself above it all," so be it. I voted for Obama twice, and still ended up with the policies of George Bush, John McCain, and Mitt Romney. I'm not getting any more blood on my hands.

 

[Angela Channing]

A lot of what is going on here reminds me of Pam Bondi's appearance at the congressional hearings this week. When she was asked about her mistakes, to apologise for publishing information about Epstein survivors or anything else related to the issues affecting people right now, her response was a variation of "WHAT ABOUT MERRICK GARLAND?" rather than addressing the actual issue. It's all the same playbook.

 

[Frank Underwood]

It's not even remotely the same playbook. Pam Bondi deflected from her own personal failing. In contrast, nobody in this thread is deflecting from the horror of Trump's war mongering or what's taking place in Minneapolis. What's being challenged is the lesser of two evils argument and the idea that Trump's predecessors weren't as bad as he is.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

"And place yourselves above it all."

I smell some projection all up in here.

 

[Seaviewer]

Are you seriously arguing that what has happened in Minneapolis is just business as usual because Obama deported people too?

 

[Frank Underwood]

Are you seriously arguing that what has happened in Minneapolis is just business as usual because Obama deported people too?

How did you make that giant leap? Nobody said anything remotely like that. I even said "This latest event is unprecedented and unnerving" in my first post of this thread.

What's happening in Minneapolis is a travesty, which I've said unequivocally throughout this thread. However, Obama did far worse things than just "deport people too."