Most dishonest, manipulative show

[Jimmy Todd]

@Snarky's Ghost made a really interesting observation in the thread about Little House on the Prairie about how emotionally manipulative it was. Recalling the show I see what he means.
So, what other old shows do people find to be emotionally manipulative in a dishonest manner? I think One Day at a Time could be that way at times. For perspective, I always found Roseanne(barring the final season) to be the least dishonest when it came to sentimentality.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Well, most fiction is, by definition, manipulative in that they're pretending something that isn't real somehow is. But it's not necessarily a lie in that we're all in on the deception.

It's the details of the tricks used, and the agenda of the show-runners, which distinguish one project from another... Is the production lying to us within the context of the drama we already realize is a lie?

 

[Daniel Avery]

This is kind of difficult to answer because I tend to tune out such programs now that I'm an adult and thus don't get overly familiar with them via repeated viewings. I watched Little House as a child and did not fully realize what was going on until I re-watched the episodes as a teen. Now it's kind of a 'hate-watch' because I know what to look for and poke fun at it.

Good call on One Day at a Time also. Another case of watching it as a child and seeing one thing, then viewing it later on and realizing how manipulative and preachy it all was.

 

[Alexis]

I seem to remember discussing this subject with others here but I cant remember who, or what shows we were discussing. I think probably @James from London, @Mel O'Drama.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

Well, most fiction is, by definition, manipulative in that they're pretending something that isn't real somehow is. But it's not necessarily a lie in that we're all in on the deception.

It's the details of the tricks used, and the agenda of the show-runners, which distinguish one project from another... Is the production lying to us within the context of the drama we already realize is a lie?

Fascinating question, Snarky. When does it cross that line when we are being manipulated just to boost ratings or get us to feel a certain way, as opposed to just letting it happen naturally?
I thought Knots Landing, for the most part, was really good at letting an emotional scene just "be," instead of forcing something along. Another favorite show of mine that did that well was The X-Files. I remember times when those shows wanted us to "feel" something, but seemed to want the audience to decide what that was.
Now that I think of it Maude was a show that I see as manipulative for all the wrong reasons. I always felt the show had a very overt political agenda that took precedence over character development.

 

[James from London]

I seem to remember discussing this subject with others here but I cant remember who, or what shows we were discussing. I think probably @James from London, @Mel O'Drama.

I think it was one of Kenny Coyote's threads about 'Is Dallas art?' And I said Dallas was more obviously manipulative than something like The Sopranos or The Wire in that it was blatantly signposting what was meant to be important or dramatic or sad or ominous, but that I didn't mind cos it was all part of the fun.

 

[Alexis]

I think it was one of Kenny Coyote's threads about 'Is Dallas art?' And I said Dallas was more obviously manipulative than something like The Sopranos or The Wire in that it was blatantly signposting what was meant to be important or dramatic or sad or ominous, but that I didn't mind cos it was all part of the fun.

Yes that's it! Thanks, I knew it was you. lol Basically all soap operas are designed to manipulate our emotions and make us feel. All drama is really, but soap operas take it to new heights of manipulation.

 

[Alexis]

I think that Desperate Housewives was very obvious in it's manipulation of the viewer at times, but it's been a very long time since I have watched it.

 

[James from London]

soap operas take it to new heights of manipulation.

Yes, you can see the strings being pulled ... except when you can't!

 

[Daniel Avery]

But when a soap is produced in a way that makes a viewer feel like they are "in on the joke" (the sort of wink-wink-nudge-nudge stuff that was rife in season 2 of NuDynasty), it's not manipulative in the traditional sense. Yes, they're doing ridiculous stuff, but they're not trying to fool you into thinking it's all serious and you should be affected emotionally by it. The soap Passions was similarly produced/written.

 

[Alexis]

But when a soap is produced in a way that makes a viewer feel like they are "in on the joke" (the sort of wink-wink-nudge-nudge stuff that was rife in season 2 of NuDynasty), it's not manipulative in the traditional sense. Yes, they're doing ridiculous stuff, but they're not trying to fool you into thinking it's all serious and you should be affected emotionally by it. The soap Passions was similarly produced/written.

Probably why I don't think I would like Passions despite liking Sunset Beach. I have an emotional attachment to SB as I watched it as a teen every week. The silliness of it was even ok when I was a teen, and now I am reliving that when I watch. It's a nostalgic thing. I don't have that with a show I haven't seen. Not even nuDynasty could hold me, as it's nothing at all to do with real Dynasty.

The original Dynasty was silly campy enough, but they were at least playing it deadly straight. Sometimes boringly so. NuDynasty is really just the Liz Gillies Comedy Hour and Revue. All the winking at the camera and absolute trifling silliness is just too much for me. At heart a soap should be a drama, not a comedy.

 

[Michael Torrance]

At heart a soap should be a drama, not a comedy.

But I could even take it if it were funny, instead of laughable.

 

[Alexis]

But I could even take it if it were funny, instead of laughable.

It just reminds me of a Nickelodeon kids show.

 

[Daniel Avery]

The serialized sitcom Soap (1977-81) is often labeled a parody or satire, but its writing and especially its acting was as good as a 'real' soap, even as it was unabashedly performed as a comedy (complete with studio audience). To me, it is the best example of how you CAN do a good soap opera that is at heart a comedy (and vice versa), but that was a unique situation that could probably not be replicated in modern TV where everyone feels they have to put shows in neat, little boxes/categories.

 

[Michael Torrance]

I find in the last two decades that emotionally manipulative shows have found a common trope, the conflict plot twist. This Is Us is such an emotionally manipulative show, always making you think the characters will get real and have real-life conflict, only to pull the rug from under you last minute and trick you with "ha ha, gotcha ya, they will both mutually make concessions because ... What would we do baby, without us? Sha la la la."

 

[Willie Oleson]

I always found Roseanne(barring the final season) to be the least dishonest when it came to sentimentality.

So...sentimental = dishonest?

Then Dynasty season 1 was dishonest too because Lindsay Blaisdel cried a lot.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

So...sentimental = dishonest?

Then Dynasty season 1 was dishonest too because Lindsay Blaisdel cried a lot.

Sentimentality itself is not dishonest. Imho, it becomes dishonest when it's anything other than the characters just "being." That's not the best explanation, I'll admit. For example, if it's sweeps month or the scene and actor seem to be focused on "for your emmy consideration." Or if I get the vine from the show the focus is not on the characters or plot as much as it's on TPTB saying l, "look at our earnest, inportant show."
Lindsay, not the entire sesson, if I recall correctly, seemed dishonest and that she was more of a plot device than a character. She seemed to be there just to convey, "family drama" and to emphasize Claudia and Matthew as a middle class couple with "real" problems.
To be fair to the writers, children and teenagers must be very hard to write, especially in a show like Dynasty. So they honestly dishonest for totally honest reasons.
That last line doesn't mean I've lost my mind. Honest.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

This conversation is all about how we define manipulation. If the audience is in on it, I, for one, don't call that manipulation. Although some do. I also don't consider it to be manipulation just because a project might have a political message or undertone.

When a project is lying to you, and you're not supposed to know it, it's manipulation.

 

[Alexis]

The serialized sitcom Soap (1977-81) is often labeled a parody or satire, but its writing and especially its acting was as good as a 'real' soap, even as it was unabashedly performed as a comedy (complete with studio audience). To me, it is the best example of how you CAN do a good soap opera that is at heart a comedy (and vice versa), but that was a unique situation that could probably not be replicated in modern TV where everyone feels they have to put shows in neat, little boxes/categories.

Yes but that show is unique, and it was a sitcom albeit with soapy window dressing. It poked fun at the daytime soap genre. A real soap opera in my opinion should not be a comedy first. I mean of course there can be comedic characters, and funny lines/ plots here and there but it shouldn't be written to a laugh track. I think a soap works best when it has people struggling through situations and relationships. When people are plotting against one another and when there are will they/wont they romantic stories.

 

[Willie Oleson]

When a project is lying to you, and you're not supposed to know it, it's manipulation.

I'm not sure how an overwrought Christian melodrama like LHOTP is not supposed to look like overwrought Christian melodrama.
Sometimes I can really enjoy the obvious fakery.

I think it's dishonest to show lots of (slow-motion) montage scenes and then sell it as "story" or "drama". Quite a few modern tv shows have nothing to say, it's lots of fancy filler and you don't realize it until you realize it. That's dishonest fakery imo.

People watch sentimental shows like LHOTP and The Waltons because they want to cry with the characters. Sort of a sitcom with tears. A sitcry.
It looks painfully dated of course, like Love Boat and so many other tv shows from the seventies.
But LHOTP also had hunks like Almanzo and catfights and a town's villain so I'm pretty sure that's when I developed my love for soaps.