Spun-off and Watered-down

[ClassyCo]

Speaking of spin-offs, I was thinking about Florence Jean Castleberry -- "Kiss my grits!" -- earlier today. Flo was the breakout character on ALICE, the CBS sitcom, in the late-'70s. So popular was Flo that the tone of ALICE was shifted from its original premise. The show was a television version of the 1974 movie ALICE DOESN'T LIVE HERE ANYMORE, and the show originally tried to carry out the single mom starting a new life with her teenage son set-up. But once actress Polly Holliday and her Flo character started clicking with audiences, the whole show shifted more towards Mel's Diner and became more of a workplace comedy. Over time, Alice's teenage son Tommy was barely on the show.

Holliday was so popular on ALICE that CBS decided to give her a spin-off series in 1980. Simply titled FLO, the show concerned Flo's journey back to her hometown of "Cowtown", Texas, and Flo starting a bar called Flo's Yellow Rose. The first, abbreviated season of FLO received exceptionally high ratings (it finished at #7 in 1980, while ALICE ranked #4) and I'm sure the producers felt they were gearing up for a long run. But when the second season saw the show be juggled around the schedule, viewers quickly bailed, and CBS canned FLO in 1981 after just 29 episodes were aired.

In this case, I'm not entirely sure Flo was specifically "watered down" for her spin-off. The issue with FLO as a series was I think Flo (as a character) worked better supporting a more stable lead like Alice. Of course, I've never been especially fond of Alice or actress Linda Lavin, but a character as flamboyant and outrageous as Flo worked well when she had more solid characters to bounce off of. As the star of her own series, the character could get to be a little "much" after a while. It's the same reason NBC didn't do a Jack & Karen spin-off when WILL & GRACE concluded back in 2006 -- they felt Jack & Karen worked better when they had the stronger, more stable Will & Grace to play off of.

The Flo character never returned to ALICE, which continued for another five seasons before getting axed in 1985. I do believe the ALICE finale contained flashbacks with Flo, however. Diane Ladd and Celia Weston essentially replaced Polly Holliday on the series.

Flo is a product of late-'70s popular culture. She is a testament of TV producers attempting to expand their successful brand. You can't hate them for trying, but you can wish that they didn't.



I may have overlooked it, but have discussed PHYLLIS, the second MARY TYLER MOORE spin-off series?

Once RHODA proved successful, CBS wanted to continue expanding the MARY TYLER MOORE universe and decided to spin-off Cloris Leachman and her Phyllis Lindstrom character into their own show. The problem was that Phyllis wasn't really a likable or relatable character, therefore making it quite impossible for her to work efficiently as a the central character of a sitcom. PHYLLIS was faced with other behind-the-scenes issues as well, such as the death of cast members, and was cancelled -- despite initially-high Nielsen ratings -- after just two seasons.

Again, you can't blame CBS and the MTM crew for wanting to find another hit if they could. MARY TYLER MOORE and RHODA were both achieving high ratings in 1975, and they didn't see any reason why PHYLLIS wouldn't do the same. In fact, the first season of PHYLLIS placed #6 in the ratings -- higher, at the time, than both RHODA (#7) and MARY TYLER MOORE (#19). But there were so many problems with PHYLLIS before and behind-the-camera that it was axed in 1977.

Not every goose can lay golden eggs.

 

[Seaviewer]

Phyllis wasn't really a likable or relatable character

Nor was she created to be and the producers really should have seen that.

 

[ClassyCo]

Nor was she created to be and the producers really should have seen that.

Quite true. The producers had created Phyllis as a frenemy of sorts for Mary and Rhoda. She was in the "clique" but she was snooty and sometimes out of the loop. Having a central character with those personality traits just wasn't going to work. Perhaps PHYLLIS (the show) could've introduced Phyllis (the character) as softer and kinder after Lars' death. But then... would she have been Phyllis anymore?

 

[CarringtonAtlantic]

- I think it could have survived without Dorothy but the supporting characters were awful and somehow the girls lost their good humor ...
maybe they needed a new 4th Golden Girl or a man to balance out the gap that Dorothy left ...

I always thought they should have tried moving in a new roommate and continuing on. Dorothy could have visited periodically. Finding the right actress and character would have been the challenge. When Dorothy almost remarried Stan, Debbie Reynolds was going to move in, so the set up was there for it. I think Cloris Leachman might have worked, or Carol Burnett...

 

[ClassyCo]

Debbie Reynolds was going to move in

The way her character was introduced, it would've been too similar to Rue's Blanche, I think.

Choris Leachman might have worked

Never been a big fan of Cloris Leachman, but it would've been interesting to see where the show might've went with her. Considering she took over for Charlotte Rae on FACTS OF LIFE for its final two seasons, I wouldn't be surprised if Cloris passed on the chance had she even been offered (which I'm positive she wasn't).

Carol Burnett

I'm not sure Carol would've been old enough to mingle with the rest of the ladies. Blanche was clearly and comically the youngest of the batch.

 

[CarringtonAtlantic]

The way her character was introduced, it would've been too similar to Rue's Blanche, I think.


Never been a big fan of Cloris Leachman, but it would've been interesting to see where the show might've went with her. Considering she took over for Charlotte Rae on FACTS OF LIFE for its final two seasons, I wouldn't be surprised if Cloris passed on the chance had she even been offered (which I'm positive she wasn't).


I'm not sure Carol would've been old enough to mingle with the rest of the ladies. Blanche was clearly and comically the youngest of the batch.

I agree the Debbie Reynolds character was too similar to Blanche.

If they wanted to make the character similar to Dorothy they could have gone with Elaine Stritch who was originally up for the role of Dorothy.

 

[ClassyCo]

Elaine Stritch who was originally up for the role of Dorothy

But I think Stritch soured her name with the producers. She changed a line in their script during her audition for Dorothy and they didn't like that. But there's a possibility they could've invited her back.

I've also heard fan theories that Dena Dietrich -- who played Dorothy's sister Gloria in the final season -- could've been a possible replacement for Dorothy in the quartet. The thought (among fans) is that Gloria could've brought the same sarcastic sassiness to the show, and she was Sophia's daughter, therefore keeping the relationships the same.

But "replacements" for Bea Arthur and Dorothy isn't what the producers -- or NBC for that matter -- wanted. It was pretty well-thought that THE GOLDEN GIRLS couldn't continue with Arthur at the head. When the writers went to the drawing board to come up with an idea to keep the stories for Rose, Blanche, and Sophia going, they came up with the idea for THE GOLDEN PALACE. The intention was to get them out of the house -- something too familiar with Arthur's absence -- and throw the three remaining ladies out into the world to face reality and have a variety of guests.

NBC wasn't terribly keen on the idea, but offered to produce 13 episodes of GOLDEN PALACE in the fall of 1992. CBS countered that offer, however, and agreed to produce 22 episodes. GOLDEN PALACE was put on Friday nights on CBS, a night the network was attempting to make their "comedy night" with GOLDEN PALACE leading the night off, followed by MAJOR DAD, DESIGNING WOMEN, and BOB. But GOLDEN PALACE performed poorly in the ratings and was cancelled after one season. MAJOR DAD and DESIGNING WOMEN both also concluded in 1993 because of declining viewership. Only BOB, the Bob Newhart sitcom, was brought back for an abbreviated second season in 1993.

So, we can have ideas as to whom we would've cast in Arthur's spot to keep GOLDEN GIRLS going, but in hindsight, none of them would've worked. The relationship between the four women had been so strong and defined, and bringing someone else into the mix just wasn't going to work. I think GOLDEN PALACE was honestly the best way for the show to go. Of course, the idea ultimately didn't pan out, but replacing Dorothy in the ensemble wouldn't have worked.

 

[Toni]

The way her character was introduced, it would've been too similar to Rue's Blanche, I think.


Never been a big fan of Cloris Leachman, but it would've been interesting to see where the show might've went with her. Considering she took over for Charlotte Rae on FACTS OF LIFE for its final two seasons, I wouldn't be surprised if Cloris passed on the chance had she even been offered (which I'm positive she wasn't).


I'm not sure Carol would've been old enough to mingle with the rest of the ladies. Blanche was clearly and comically the youngest of the batch.

Oh Carol always looked 70 (even now)...

 

[colbyco]

It was a good idea to leave the "house" and move into a hotel ...a new, fresh set with new, fresh problems.
but the co-stars seemed to dull.
Maybe a 50% co-owner which is a enemy in the beginning turning into a friend after Rose saved her life during a fire could have been succesful.
I think Mary Tyler Moore was still popular during this time ... after loosing Bea you have to catch viewers interest with a big, beloved actress.
Or Mary´s Co-stars Rhoda or Phyllis ...?

 

[ClassyCo]

It was a good idea to leave the "house" and move into a hotel ...a new, fresh set with new, fresh problems.

You're right. It was a good idea to get them out of the house and into a setting, even though I missed the familiarity of the kitchen and living room from the house. In the hotel, they didn't quite know where to place them for the more personal, character-driven scenes. They would put them in the kitchen, but with the men there, it just didn't work as well.

but the co-stars seemed to dull

I didn't necessarily find the new co-stars dull, but I definitely thought they were a little out of place. Don Cheadle, a very good comedic actor, I thought was well-suited, but he should've been more of a villain perhaps at the beginning. He was funny, though, and I thought he mixed with the women well.

Maybe a 50% co-owner which is a enemy in the beginning turning into a friend after Rose saved her life during a fire could have been successful.

Yes, that might have worked, or maybe something similar. Maybe that could've been one of the two men already in the cast, or perhaps they could've reworked the line-up of characters and worked a story like this in.

I think Mary Tyler Moore was still popular during this time ... after loosing Bea you have to catch viewers interest with a big, beloved actress.
Or Mary´s Co-stars Rhoda or Phyllis ...?

They may have worked. Those three ladies -- Mary Tyler Moore, Valerie Harper, and Cloris Leachman -- were in the right age range, even though Moore and Harper were both younger than Rue McClanahan. Leachman was closer to the other three in age.

 

[CarringtonAtlantic]

I'm not sure Carol would've been old enough to mingle with the rest of the ladies. Blanche was clearly and comically the youngest of the batch.

Carol is a year older than Rue so age wise she fit and Rue would still have been the youngest.

I don't know that it would have worked, but it would have been fascinating to see. Harvey Korman and Tim Conway were guest stars on an episode Golden Palace as radio DJs.

Maybe the new female cast member could have been a co-owner of the hotel, that would have given it an interesting dynamic. In that case, maybe someone like Diahann Carroll.

 

[ClassyCo]

Carol is a year older than Rue so age wise she fit and Rue would still have been the youngest.

I don't know why I keep thinking of women like Carol Burnett being much younger than THE GOLDEN GIRLS cast. I think it's got something to do with the fact that THE CAROL BURNETT SHOW was on almost 20 years prior, and therefore Carol was younger... then!

Maybe the new female cast member could have been a co-owner of the hotel, that would have given it an interesting dynamic. In that case, maybe someone like Diahann Carroll.

As much as I would've liked that, I have misgivings that the producers were ready to integrate the show to that degree.