The problem with diversity demands

[Emelee]

By the way, the notion from some producers that you can only identify with characters that look like yourself is not valid. I remember when I was young watching Fresh Prince of Bel-Air and that I identified a lot with Will. And I have never been a black young man from Philadelphia (as far as I know). I identified with his attitude towards the posh ideals the Banks family lived by. I pictured myself reacting very similarly to him in the situations.

Identifying with someone else is also what actors do. A grown man can play a 7-year-old girl. It's their job. And many of us have performed in some kind of just-for-fun play (on stage or off stage) and portrayed a role. Heck, we even teach all pupils to identify with characters in novels to discuss why they did what they did in the book. We often ask pupils after showing a movie what they thought and why the characters did what they did. Humans have practised identification with characters for centuries. Even small children are taught morals and empathy by being asked to identify with someone else. It's constantly encouraged. So we indeed must have a vast variety of characters so that we can improve our skills of identification, understanding and empathy.

 

[Ome]

Why not have a white hero type suddenly say or do something that offends their coloured friends/partner/relative/co-worker? Not because he or she is a racist, but to actually be true to the world -- that we sometimes completely inadvertently offend people. You don't have to be a racist to accidentally say something that you didn't even know would offend a coloured person.

Coronation Street attempted a story like this. They had a popular white character playing alongside a popular black character. During the game, the white character said: "come on, play the white man" to his mate who took it for what it was, a racist remark. Now, these were good mates, however, this divided them as well as other characters in the show. Some saying he didn't realise it was racist while others threw accusations that he could be racist. It was a great story, but like many serious stories with Corrie, they didn't execute it very well. Still, it got people talking about it.

 

[Emelee]

But what you are suggesting is that TV shows adopt some preachy 1960s/70s mentality where the basis of having a black person on the show is to educate the world and explain to us all what prejudice and racism is. That's not realistic. Can you imagine if that happening seriously? That in every TV show that has a diverse cast there would have to be such a storyline. That is not what needs to happen. There just needs to be an equal amount of roles for non-whites as there are for white people. Not every black actor wants to come on to a show and do a storyline about race and prejudices. They want to act, the same as all other actors.

Preachy, no. But you can easily build drama around things without preaching. Without the characters learning lessons at the end of every episode. And I don't think you need a single black character in a particular scene to play racism issues. You can have 2 white characters clashing over it. Two characters that are quite different. Like Alexis and Krystle. One of them says something and the other will of course automatically explode at the other and suddenly we have drama. Why must characters always clash regarding a shared romantic interest or business? In real life, people often clash because they have different opinions about things that do not involve love relationships or the company they work for. The characters themselves don't need to come to any conclusion at the end of the episode, ergo it doesn't need to be preachy at all. Just two different opinions clashing that created some good drama for the viewers, but also makes them take a stand for one of the characters. It's what we do all the time anyway.

 

[Emelee]

Coronation Street attempted a story like this. They had a popular white character playing alongside a popular black character. During the game, the white character said: "come on, play the white man" to his mate who took it for what it was, a racist remark. Now, these were good mates, however, this divided them as well as other characters in the show. Some saying he didn't realise it was racist while others threw accusations that he could be racist. It was a great story, but like many serious stories with Corrie, they didn't execute it very well. Still, it got people talking about it.

I SO wish that I had seen that!!!!! It sounds terrific. One little remark by one character who thinks it's perfectly innocent and ok is really all that it takes to create some terrific drama and discussion on message boards.

 

[Alexis]

Preachy, no. But you can easily build drama around things without preaching. Without the characters learning lessons at the end of every episode. And I don't think you need a single black character in a particular scene to play racism issues. You can have 2 white characters clashing over it. Two characters that are quite different. Like Alexis and Krystle. One of them says something and the other will of course automatically explode at the other and suddenly we have drama. Why must characters always clash regarding a shared romantic interest or business? In real life, people often clash because they have different opinions about things that do not involve love relationships or the company they work for. The characters themselves don't need to come to any conclusion at the end of the episode, ergo it doesn't need to be preachy at all. Just two different opinions clashing that created some good drama for the viewers, but also makes them take a stand for one of the characters. It's what we do all the time anyway.

But is that really what's needed now? Do we really need to see white people argue over race on TV in order for black people to be cast on shows? Is that the only reason for them being on the show? You don't even understand how you are making this not even be about people of colour. Why does the basis of them being on the show have to revolve around race?

 

[Emelee]

But is that really what's needed now? Do we really need to see white people argue over race on TV in order for black people to be cast on shows? Is that the only reason for them being on the show? You don't even understand how you are making this not even be about people of colour. Why does the basis of them being on the show have to revolve around race?

They are two separate things and they have nothing to do with each other. We need diversity on TV and we need for it to be as natural as breathing. And they should not be there for the sake of talking racism. They should simply be there because they are humans who plays normal characters with normal problems. None of the cast black people need to be in a story about racism. They just need to be there, period.

It's whole other topic about racism and how it's portrayed on TV and film. And as I said above, I don't even think you need one black character present to have a conflict between two characters that is about racism.

One thing they shouldn't do is to never address racism at all, as though it didn't exist. And it doesn't even have to be a huge storyline. It would be a simple remark made by someone to get two old friends to fall out. You and I can discuss racism all day long without any of us being black. I can discuss prejudice towards lesbians with another straight woman. A TV show can have one storyline where a black family deals with an illness or a divorce or whatever and another storyline where two old friends fall out because they have a fight after one says something sensitive about race and we get to follow how two old friends struggle with their relationship.

 

[Alexis]

They are two separate things and they have nothing to do with each other. We need diversity on TV and we need for it to be as natural as breathing. And they should not be there for the sake of talking racism. They should simply be there because they are humans who plays normal characters with normal problems. None of the cast black people need to be in a story about racism. They just need to be there, period.

But that is what I have been saying! It is not what you have been saying.

Go back and read over your posts.

 

[Emelee]

But that is what I have been saying! It is not what you have been saying.

Go back and read over your posts.

That is exactly what I have been saying too, but you've kept on misunderstanding and reading things into what I've written that I simply have not written or meant.
I feel that showrunners since the 90s have begun casting black people because there just needs to be a better representation of the population in the country. However, most have still not taken the second step by showing us a variety of good guys that can be slightly racists without realizing it. We seem to be stuck with mostly 3 types of characters. The good guy who is always good and understanding. The antihero who is a total ass but still saves the day. And the evil villain. That is not a good representation of the population. I miss having more normal or average characters. People who are decent, not heroes. Those that can have a prejudice opinion against certain people but who tries to hide it by biting their tongue when they are about to say something. Or even utters the crude remarks when in a fight.

Lord knows there are lawyers, doctors, police officers, teachers, business leaders etc with a few questionable opinions but are still considered decent people. So add more such characters. I'd love to see such a police officer on Law & Order for instance. A character who is a terrific crime investigator and treats people decently, but in the break room or the station sometimes utters slightly questionable remarks about coloured people or homosexual people or one of the genders. I'd love to see Olivia Benson bite her tongue when it comes to a close co-worker instead of them all being so very upstanding characters with great compassion for all humans.

 

[Alexis]

The good guy who is always good and understanding. The antihero who is a total ass but still saves the day. And the evil villain. That is not a good representation of the population

But these are just common popular TV tropes. These types of characters are the basis for most television drama.

I miss having more normal or average characters. People who are decent, not heroes. Those that can have a prejudice opinion against certain people but who tries to hide it by biting their tongue when they are about to say something. Or even utters the crude remarks when in a fight.

I can fully understand why producers, and actors don't want to go after such storylines and especially not make them a recurring thing. Who wants to play a racist or someone that is homophobic or whatever. And do we really need that on TV all the time? Can we not move forward and show positive representations of people without white people explaining why racism and homophobia is bad. I feel that that sets things back when things should move forward.

 

[Emelee]

But these are just common popular TV tropes. These types of characters are the basis for most television drama.

I can fully understand why producers, and actors don't want to go after such storylines and especially not make them a recurring thing. Who wants to play a racist or someone that is homophobic or whatever. And do we really need that on TV all the time? Can we not move forward and show positive representations of people without white people explaining why racism and homophobia is bad. I feel that that sets things back when things should move forward.

I believe it can be presented without explaining why it's bad. Viewers are smart enough to realize it's bad themselves without being told so. I just think it's exciting to watch characters with different opinions being forced together. I love the tension it creates. I am one of those people who at work observe my colleagues at the coffee table or the lunch table and quickly notices when a bit of tension arises. When I see someone starting to play with the phone instead of participating in a conversation. When someone gets a tense look on their face. When someone raises their voice to get to finish their train of thought. When someone looks slightly uncomfortable and you just know they want to say something but chooses not to. It's a total bring out the popcorn moment for me.

 

[Emelee]

Add: it's not often it happens at my job. Mostly we laugh and joke. But when a sensitive topic comes up......

 

[Kenny Coyote]

Friends showrunner Martha Kauffman is talking about her regrets about not having more diversity on Friends. David Schwimmer (Ross) says he always pushed for Ross to date women of colour.

https://people.com/tv/friends-creator-says-didnt-do-enough-diversity/

That's all fine, BUT... What actor wants to be cast simply because of your skin colour? What actor wants to wonder if he/she was only cast because he/she is a person of colour? What actor wants to be associated with a stereotypical role because the show writers don't know how to write something that isn't stereotypical for coloured people? What actor wants focus on their skin colour? What actor wants the show's fans to comment about you only being cast because the showrunners wants to be politically correct and feel good about themselves?

It's a bit too superficial to me.

Wow, she really said that? They had tremendous success with the way they did things. If it ain't broke don't try to fix it!

 

[Angela Channing]

That is exactly what I have been saying too, but you've kept on misunderstanding and reading things into what I've written that I simply have not written or meant.
I feel that showrunners since the 90s have begun casting black people because there just needs to be a better representation of the population in the country. However, most have still not taken the second step by showing us a variety of good guys that can be slightly racists without realizing it. We seem to be stuck with mostly 3 types of characters. The good guy who is always good and understanding. The antihero who is a total ass but still saves the day. And the evil villain. That is not a good representation of the population. I miss having more normal or average characters. People who are decent, not heroes. Those that can have a prejudice opinion against certain people but who tries to hide it by biting their tongue when they are about to say something. Or even utters the crude remarks when in a fight.

Lord knows there are lawyers, doctors, police officers, teachers, business leaders etc with a few questionable opinions but are still considered decent people. So add more such characters. I'd love to see such a police officer on Law & Order for instance. A character who is a terrific crime investigator and treats people decently, but in the break room or the station sometimes utters slightly questionable remarks about coloured people or homosexual people or one of the genders. I'd love to see Olivia Benson bite her tongue when it comes to a close co-worker instead of them all being so very upstanding characters with great compassion for all humans.

I kind of fed up with black characters only appearing in shows so they can explore racial issues. Black people are more multi-dimensional than just being a prop to introduce a white supremist storyline.

The other clichés I hate on TV are the black best friend in a show that's mainly about a white character, the sassy black neighbour or co-worker in an otherwise white neighbourhood or workplace and the black judge when a show about white characters have an episode involving a court appearance.

Why don't casting directors, writers and producers just employ black characters in roles that could go to anyone? Friends was mentioned in the original post and there was no reason why one of more of the main characters couldn't have been black. It was set in New York for goodness sake where about a quarter of the population is black! A main black star wouldn't be tokenism but a reflection of the city in which the show was set.

A show that got it right is How To Get Away With Murder. Annalise Keating could have been a character of any race but she just happened to be black. As a result we got to see so many sides of the character without always falling back on the tired lazy idea of making it all about her being black. Although her being black was a key part of her identity, it was never what the show was about. It wasn't a show about a black woman, it was a show about an intelligent, strong and flawed woman who just happened to be black.

 

[Willie Oleson]

Peyton Place did a very good story about a black family and its position in the community.

 

[Kenny Coyote]

It's not the purpose of the entertainment business to accurately depict reality, unless it's a documentary. If it were their objective to accurately depict reality, exceptionally good-looking people would be a rarity in movies and TV, but they're not, because people like seeing them. That won't ever change. Accurately depicting reality isn't their job because it doesn't make money! Their objective is to provide entertainment that people will like. The market decides what is successful. My favorite show ever, Dallas, had an all white lead cast. Would I have wanted it cast differently? No! It was cast brilliantly. Another show I watched regularly was The Cosby Show and they had no whites at all in lead roles. It was an all black cast and I wouldn't have wanted it cast any differently. It was great the way it was. Both were the most successful shows of their time.

It's up to the people making a series or movie to decide what will work for their particular project. The public decides whether it succeeds or fails. The most successful actor in Hollywood is Dwayne Johnson. He's half black and half Samoan. Dwayne Johnson makes at least 2o million dollars for every movie he makes. It has nothing to do with his race; he's the best at what he does! That's what a free market does; it rewards people based on how many people buy tickets to their movies or how many people watch their shows. If people want what you're offering them it succeeds and if not, it fails. That makes it so as a producer, it's in your best interest to hire the best people for the job, no matter what color they are. It's a merit based system. If they don't hire the best people for the job, they're costing themselves money and who is gonna want to do that?

 

[Alexis]

My God... I cant even.

 

[Rove]

Look at Dallas for instance in 12 seasons the only person of colour on the show that I recall was a waitress who wasn't even a main cast member. In 12 seasons!

On this I agree. You're thinking of Dora Mae (Pat Colbert). I was of the impression she owned the bar in which members of the Ewing family - especially JR - would meet for business dealings. Dallas was known to touch on subject matters no one dare touch. In hindsight expanding the role of Dora Mae would have been a positive approach. Here is an African American woman running a successful business.

Missed opportunity.

 

[Frank Underwood]

On this I agree. You're thinking of Dora Mae (Pat Colbert). I was of the impression she owned the bar in which members of the Ewing family - especially JR - would meet for business dealings. Dallas was known to touch on subject matters no one dare touch. In hindsight expanding the role of Dora Mae would have been a positive approach. Here is an African American woman running a successful business.

Missed opportunity.

It was hard for a show like Dallas to introduce black characters, at least into the main cast. And that's because the Barnes and Ewing families were white. Dynasty had to use the cliched "illegitimate half-sister" trope in order to introduce Dominique. By focusing on multiple families living on a cul-de-sac, Knots Landing was able to introduce a black family organically.

I've been overweight most of my life, and I've noticed people like me have long been punchlines on TV. And yet I never was offended or demanded more fat positivity. Hell, many times I was laughing at the jokes myself. I sometimes think people take themselves too seriously. If your self-worth comes from how well you're represented on TV, that's a problem in itself.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

When Diahann Carrol was shopping herself around the nighttime soaps in 1984, she said one producer told her point blank that his show "will never have a black character on it."

Assuming Miz Deveraux didn't make up that quote, one has to assume it was Katzman. (Clearly KNOTS' David Jacobs would never have said that, and FC would have anybody who asked to appear -- although Filerman would have likely held out for Lena Horne). And of all the shows, DALLAS was indeed the only soap of the era which remained non-integrated --- and I recall Ray Parker Jr offering his services to appear on DALLAS and "be kissin' on Sue Ellen," but it was never going to happen.

That said, Rebecca Wentworth should have been fully one-half Mexican, allowing Pam's genetic heritage to be just one more reason JR didn't want her at Southfork.

On this I agree. You're thinking of Dora Mae (Pat Colbert). I was of the impression she owned the bar in which members of the Ewing family - especially JR - would meet for business dealings. Dallas was known to touch on subject matters no one dare touch. In hindsight expanding the role of Dora Mae would have been a positive approach. Here is an African American woman running a successful business.

Missed opportunity.

I somehow suspect Dora Mae didn't own The Oil Baron's club atop the Dallas skyline.

 

[Frank Underwood]

That said, Rebecca Wentworth should have been fully one-half Mexican, allowing Pam's genetic heritage to be just one more reason JR didn't want her at Southfork.

I think that would have worked. I remember JR made a crack about Elena's heritage on the new Dallas.

I somehow suspect Dora Mae didn't own The Oil Baron's club atop the Dallas skyline.

Yes, I doubt the owner would double as the hostess.

Although he was only on the show briefly, I thought the black actor who played the CIA guy during the BD Calhoun storyline was quite good.

Years ago, I remember somebody suggesting that the McKays should have been black. I think James Earl Jones would have made a great Carter, but I doubt he would have done TV.