Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

[Mel O'Drama]

Rhoda
Season Five
The Total Brenda / Earl’s Helping Hand / Brenda Runs Away



And it’s over. Rhoda has fizzled out with an unremarkable, if watchable, run of episodes. There’s little to say about these final ones really. The final episode ended with Brenda newly determined to marry Benny while Rhoda and Ida share a loving moment in their cinema seats. According to air date order, and based on Tommie’s findings, The Total Brenda may have been the final episode to be seen during its original run, and the sad thing about that is that barely twelve hours later I cannot even remember how it ended.

Of course, I now find myself wondering what we might have been given had the ending been telegraphed enough to wrap things up in the style of MTM. Given the season’s trajectory, I imagine it would have ended with Brenda’s wedding giving the opportunity to see some returnees gathering together.

As it was, I wasn’t so much left wanting more as fully accepting it was past time to say goodbye. There was certainly enough good stuff in Rhoda for me to feel it was worth a view, and there were phases where I felt very invested in the series and the story.

All in all, not bad, considering I had to be talked into watching the first couple of episodes.

Gould was one of my favorite character actors; I always liked seeing him turn up in any project.

Most people will likely recall him more as Miles, Rose's multi-season boyfriend on The Golden Girls.

It pains me a little to admit this, but for me the instant association with his name is Jack Geller on Friends. That series was - and continues to be - so popular and oft-repeated here that it's kind of hard to get away from. He was still as reliable as ever there.

 

[Crimson]

Brenda’s wedding giving the opportunity to see some returnees gathering together.

Perhaps the elephant not-in-the-room during the final two seasons of RHODA: why did Mary Richards never make an appearance? There was talk of it happening, and even a strong assumption that it would, but Mary herself was indifferent to the idea. Although she spent a period of time in bored semi-retirement immediately after the end of MTM, she probably knew further appearances as Mary would undermine the perfect end of her show.

Was Mary even referred to in the final two seasons of RHODA?

instant association with his name is Jack Geller on Friends

That was Elliot Gould.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Although she spent a period of time in bored semi-retirement immediately after the end of MTM, she probably knew further appearances as Mary would undermine the perfect end of her show.

Exactly this. When her character has been given a definitive and satisfying ending even a cameo would be likely to dilute that.

Was Mary even referred to in the final two seasons of RHODA?

I don't recall any mentions, and believe the closest we came was a passing reference or two to Rhoda having lived in Minneapolis. Certainly there was nothing in the way of letting us know anything that had happened in Mary's world after that ending.

That was Elliot Gould.

How mortifying.

Clearly I don't know my Haz from my Elliott.

 

[Crimson]

When her character has been given a definitive and satisfying ending even a cameo would be likely to dilute that.

As you said, if RHODA had a planned ending there might have been more pressure to get Mary to appear as Valerie had for the final MTM episode. While it would have been nice to see Mary again, I suspect it would have been unsatisfying or even detrimental to when we last saw her. Bigger surprise to me that RHODA, in its faltering years, never thought to bring in Cloris for an episode or two. Sure it would have taken some convoluted plotting to get Phyllis to NYC but the antagonistic chemistry between the two would have been worth the effort.

It's worth noting that none of the MTM spinoffs were given the chance for a proper send-off, so we have no idea what MTM Productions could have done in comparison to the famed MTM finale.

How mortifying.

I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse.

 

[Seaviewer]

MTM still managed to produce a pilot for Carlton: Your Doorman, a proposed animated spin-off for Carlton:

I'd forgotten all about that one, although I have an idea that it was broadcast here as a special.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Bigger surprise to me that RHODA, in its faltering years, never thought to bring in Cloris for an episode or two. Sure it would have taken some convoluted plotting to get Phyllis to NYC but the antagonistic chemistry between the two would have been worth the effort.

This hasn't occurred to me, but I can see that working. With Phyllis being based away from Minneapolis and being quite a self-involved character anyway it would have been very easy to simply take the appearance on face value without any expectation of filling in gaps when it comes to things best left to the viewers' imaginations.

It's worth noting that none of the MTM spinoffs were given the chance for a proper send-off, so we have no idea what MTM Productions could have done in comparison to the famed MTM finale.

I take it this includes Lou Grant, then? That's a shame.

I'd forgotten all about that one, although I have an idea that it was broadcast here as a special.

I watched this last night .

On Rhoda, Carlton was a character I found tolerable at best. Expectations were very low for a project with him as a title character. This was fortunate since it was very much an exercise in completion rather than something I enjoyed.

In favour of the episode, the animation style was pleasant enough to look at I also give the writers points for being bold enough to kill off a dog onscreen (though I kind of hated this as well). It's arguably nice that it kick started Lorenzo Music's voice acting career as well (even though it could be said that Rhoda did that anyway).

Sadly, it just felt surplus to requirements. Carlton's thing on Rhoda was being famously unseen (mostly). Even there I was unhappy when we saw any identifying features (I commented after his hand was seen that it had shattered my mental image of Carlton since I'd pictured him as black). In the animation, Carlton is front and centre, a skinny white man with long blonde hair and a moustache... none of which matched the image I'd mentally composited whilst watching Rhoda (in fact, the very last episode of Rhoda went out of its way to specify that he didn't have a moustache).

Compared with MTM, Rhoda and even Phyllis, this just lacked heart. Nothing felt meaningful. It was just a series of situations with no real character. And since it wasn't very funny, it really needed some heart.

Really, though, any episode of Rhoda where Carlton was featured more than usual became a little less enjoyable for me, so to it all comes down to familiarity breeding contempt.





Also, I watched the first two thirds of The Making Of The Mary Tyler Moore Show last night, which is serving as a definitive time capsule of the series' history for me, with input from all the main players - behind and in front of the cameras - who were still around at the time the documentary was made. It's been great to find out more background.

I hadn't realised how much attempted interference there was from the network, who didn't want James Brooks, Allan Burns or Ed Asner. It makes me feel very impressed that it made it to air with so much purity, and it seems several people put their necks on the chopping block to get it done. I'd say it's all in there, from Gavin Macleod reading for Lou but wanting Murray (which, as it turns out, is what the casting woman wanted too) to the disastrous test scene hastily shot with MTM and Ed Asner, in which Asner's performance was pitched and timed wrong and he nearly came to blows with Jay Sandrich.

My one complaint about the documentary is the constant soundtrack, with loud music that sounds quite malapropos playing over the dialogue. It's proved hugely distracting and means I haven't taken in as much information as I would if the music was more in-keeping and quieter. This was the main reason I had to stop after an hour.

Still, I'm looking forward to learning more in the remaining 30 minutes, as well as the other features in the DVD set.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

(which, as it turns out, is what the casting woman wanted too)

CBS' Ethel Winant -- she saved the show's ass. Or arse. ("Almost to her own detriment," Allan Burns asserted).

Most studio and network executives are apparently just how we picture them: there only for purposes of destruction and always obsessed with the wrong things. (Not Winant, of course).

 

[Crimson]

I take it this includes Lou Grant, then?

I've never seen LOU GRANT so I don't know if the final episode offers any conclusion, but the show was abruptly cancelled; so I suspect not. Asner had become politically outspoken for liberal causes during his years on MTM; an interesting development since he had started out, in the parlance of the day, as a male chauvinist. Asner always claimed LOU GRANT was cancelled due to his political activism, even if the network denied it. Since LOU GRANT was still a very solid hit at the time of cancellation, Asner was probably correct.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

CBS' Ethel Winant -- she saved the show's ass. Or arse. ("Almost to her own detriment," Allan Burns asserted).

That's the one. I couldn't remember her name and quick scan of the series' Wikipedia and IMDb pages didn't yield any gold.

Ethel was featured a fair bit in the documentary I watched, and still spoke very passionately about the series, which was lovely.

the show was abruptly cancelled; so I suspect not.

A definite pattern with the spinoffs, then.

Asner had become politically outspoken for liberal causes during his years on MTM; an interesting development since he had started out, in the parlance of the day, as a male chauvinist.

I don't know much about Asner as a person and haven't seen many interviews - if any - but the characters he plays often seem to have that undercurrent of chauvinism so it feels quite surprising on that level.

Asner always claimed LOU GRANT was cancelled due to his political activism, even if the network denied it. Since LOU GRANT was still a very solid hit at the time of cancellation, Asner was probably correct.

Interesting. Again, I find this surprising, but more because I think of Hollywood as leaning pretty far to the left. I suppose the pendulum does swing back and forth, though.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I don't know much about Asner as a person and haven't seen many interviews - if any - but the characters he plays often seem to have that undercurrent of chauvinism so it feels quite surprising on that level.

To my knowledge, Ted Knight was the only conservative in the cast (although the meaning of those terms tend to change over time). It created some tension between Asner and Knight.

 

[Crimson]

I don't know much about Asner as a person and haven't seen many interviews - if any - but the characters he plays often seem to have that undercurrent of chauvinism so it feels quite surprising on that level.

Despite his progressive activism, I don't know if Asner was a particularly nice guy; or at least I've come across some pretty unpleasant anecdotes about him. Around the time LOU GRANT was cancelled, Ted Knight was promoting his new sitcom. When asked about LOU GRANT's cancellation, Knight apparently didn't defend the situation to Asner's satisfaction. Ed held a grudge for the rest of Knight's life and refused to speak to him. Even when Asner visited Knight's death bed, it was to "forgive" Ted. Said Asner, "The sin was his" which is about the pettiest thing I've heard especially since Asner couldn't even recall what Ted said or didn't say that offended him in the first place.

 

[Daniel Avery]

I saw some reruns of late-1970s Match Game a few months ago, with Ed Asner appearing as one of the celebrity panelists. If you're familiar with the show, the "game" was sort of an excuse for the celebrities to enjoy themselves, with many episodes having a party atmosphere. Asner sat in the first seat and was practically humorless, often giving the worst answers and occasionally antagonizing the show's host or other stars on the panel. It was like someone threw a party and felt obligated to invite that grumpy old neighbor who doesn't socialize. He wasn't "in character" as Lou Grant or anything---he was just not in the mood to enjoy himself.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

I recently watched a few episodes of MTM, and I've forgotten how good the show is. This has probably been mentioned on this thread, but the pacing is so different from most sitcoms I have seen. It takes its time and lets us get to know the characters in a way other shows don't. One episode stood out for me. Mary and Rhoda take a night class on journalism, and Mary starts dating the professor. She's a tad miffed because she only gets a C+ on a paper. She dors mention it to the professor, but there's no big showdown or catharsis. The ethics of her dating her professor isn't addressed by anyone(this is the 1970s). The episode feels more like a "slice of life" of Mary, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Another episode involved Rhoda's mother coming to visit. I mention this because I love Ida Morgenstern.

 

[tommie]

I've never seen LOU GRANT so I don't know if the final episode offers any conclusion, but the show was abruptly cancelled; so I suspect not.

It sort of ends on a nice note I'd say. Not one like MTMS, but there's no giant cliffhangers or anything.

Since LOU GRANT was still a very solid hit at the time of cancellation, Asner was probably correct.

This isn't exactly true - it was always a bit of a mid-performer - something that hovered around in the lower top 30/40 in the Nielsen rankings. In the final season it fell from #27 to #38 and CBS was of course at the time having major success with Dallas, so I think Lou Grant was just expendable at that point. While it makes for a better story that CBS cancelled it because Ed Asner was politically outspoken, that's not how networks work. Hell, even with the infamous Roseanne debacle, they just retooled the show. If Asner was the issue... he'd be out and the show would've gone out without the lead.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Despite his progressive activism, I don't know if Asner was a particularly nice guy; or at least I've come across some pretty unpleasant anecdotes about him.

It was like someone threw a party and felt obligated to invite that grumpy old neighbor who doesn't socialize.

While this is disappointing, somehow it softens the blow that he is known mostly for playing grumpy types.

The game show thing is interesting, because I assume most people who appear are contractually obligated to do so by the network on which they usually appear, but almost all contestants manage either to genuinely enjoy themselves or to overcome their reservations enough to appear to have fun.

While it makes for a better story that CBS cancelled it because Ed Asner was politically outspoken, that's not how networks work. Hell, even with the infamous Roseanne debacle, they just retooled the show. If Asner was the issue... he'd be out and the show would've gone out without the lead.

I was trying to think of an example from around Lou Grant's time and the one that sprang immediately to mind was... Valerie.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

This isn't exactly true - it was always a bit of a mid-performer - something that hovered around in the lower top 30/40 in the Nielsen rankings. In the final season it fell from #27 to #38 and CBS was of course at the time having major success with Dallas, so I think Lou Grant was just expendable at that point. While it makes for a better story that CBS cancelled it because Ed Asner was politically outspoken, that's not how networks work. Hell, even with the infamous Roseanne debacle, they just retooled the show. If Asner was the issue... he'd be out and the show would've gone out without the lead.

Maybe. But one has to remember the political zeitgeist in America in the early-to-mid-'80s. Reagan was seen as a god -- even amongst many Democrats. And speaking out against him, although not exactly dangerous physically, was considered shocking, inexplicable and blasphemous.

Even the liberalism that remained (and "liberal" became a dirty word) was muted and deferential.

So, yeah, Asner's outspoken left-leaning tendencies, openly criticizing The Gipper's policies, probably rang the death knell to a series always in the middle of the ratings anyway.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

Regarding political views, I recall reading an interview with Mary Tyler Moore in which she said she was not entirely comfortable with being, as she saw it, having the moniker of "feminist icon" being foisted in her by Gloria Steinem, and that she saw herself as more of a libertarian than liberal.

 

[tommie]

So, yeah, Asner's outspoken left-leaning tendencies, openly criticizing The Gipper's policies, probably rang the death knell to a series always in the middle of the ratings anyway.

Perhaps Ed Asner's political opinions tipped the hand against it, but my point is that it wasn't a huge hit or a shock that it got cancelled. Ironically, looking at their slate I suspect they were choosing between it and Knots Landing. But that season seems like a bit of a mess with the House Calls / Cagney & Lacey switch. It's obvious Dallas and then Falcon Crest both taking off changed a lot of things for how CBS approached the early 80s.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Regarding political views, I recall reading an interview with Mary Tyler Moore in which she said she was not entirely comfortable with being, as she saw it, having the moniker of "feminist icon" being foisted in her by Gloria Steinem, and that she saw herself as more of a libertarian than liberal.

Mary Tyler Moore did a campaign ad for Jimmy Carter's re-election in 1980. She apparently slid to the right -- although not as extremely as Jon Voight did -- as she got into her elderly years.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Ted Knight was the only conservative in the cast (although the meaning of those terms tend to change over time). It created some tension between Asner and Knight.

I saw my first hint of this in the 8 Characters in Search of a Sitcom bonus feature from the Season Two DVD set. Someone (either Betty, Cloris or perhaps Valerie) made a passing comment about Ted and Ed occasionally going at it, though no context was given.

At an hour long, it was a decent extra actually, and up there with The Making Of The Mary Tyler Moore Show from the Season One DVDs.

I also thoroughly enjoyed Mary On Sunday, which was a contemporaneous report on the making of the Season Three title sequence. I've watched the extensive B-roll footage of this shoot on YouTube, but preferred watching with the added narration and context in the report. It's so much fun to see how the crowd was utilised.

Something I found eye-opening was that the studio as a rule didn't pay to film shots of people's property, but were in negotiations to pay the woman who owned the MTM house as she was understandably peeved that the house was attracting unwanted attention from stalker-ish fans and people wanting photographs and souvenirs. As she was interviewed talking about her complaints, we were given shots of the house covered in ugly banners and "Impeach Nixon" signs, hung up deliberately to ensure the house wasn't re-filmed for the new titles. I assume negotiations fell through at this point.