Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

Daniel Avery

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There was one early episode of MF that focused on Mama's birthday that sticks out in my mind because they made an effort to show Eunice and her mother could (eventually) come to a truce. This was something they NEVER would have done in the Carol Burnett Show sketches. There was the usual arguing and resulting trouble (Mama and Eunice ended up in a holding cell) but after they got bailed out, Thelma and Eunice had a real (that is, no shouting) conversation and apologized to one another like...well, like adults. Some would say they'd turned a page, but many would likely say it's the worst thing that those two could have done because those two should have always been at one another's throats. I often wonder how CB felt about playing that scene.
 

Crimson

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Some would say they'd turned a page, but many would likely say it's the worst thing that those two could have done because those two should have always been at one another's throats. I often wonder how CB felt about playing that scene.

I don't recall the episode, but it begs the question: and then what? Were Eunice and Mama back to squabbling in their next appearance together, in which case what was the point? And if not, didn't it fundamentally change what made their relationship funny in the first place?

All of which ties into one of the recurring themes discussed with MTM: the inherent risk of a sitcom's characters and relationships evolving and eventually no longer being the very show audiences liked in the first place. Not that I think the changes on MTM were drastic enough to wreck the show, but it's the age old dilemma of long running shows: stay the same and get stale or change and risk losing the magic that made the show work.
 

Mel O'Drama

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Rhoda
Season Four
One Is A Number / Ida Works Out / Rhoda Likes Mike / The Weekend / Home Movies / Johnny’s Solo Flight / Blind Date / Ida Alone



I’ve just noticed that an episode named Who’s Shy? is missing from the playlist, so I’ll have to catch this one tonight. They synopsis says that Brenda sees a therapist to cure her shyness, but I’m not seeing much sign of it this year. In fact, I’d say current Rhoda ties in with Crimson's observation:
the inherent risk of a sitcom's characters and relationships evolving and eventually no longer being the very show audiences liked in the first place.


As you can tell, I’m watching the episodes at quite a rate. Unfortunately, my mentality around it is less “I can’t stop watching” and more “let’s get this over with”. I fear if I drag this season out I’ll lose the will to live, or at the very least the will to continue.

Some episodes and scenes are watchable enough, while far too many are a bit tedious.

Valerie Harper’s weight loss continues to be more distracting than it should be, more so because the wardrobe seems chosen to draw attention to the new look, and it feels a little that this is at the expense of story. When she’s in a fuller dress and has her hair styled well it looks OK. But when she’s in a shoulder-less gown, or a tank top, and has her hair scraped back from her head, she just looks angular and long and drawn. A couple of episodes have commented upon the weight loss, which is natural, but I thought the episode with the short, bald date was in bad taste. His commenting upon her being too skinny was framed as rude (which it was, the character having been written obnoxiously enough to justify her eventual outburst) while her calling him short, bald and ugly was acceptable, overlooking the obvious fact that he had no say in or control over any of these factors.

Johnny Venture is probably the worst thing to happen to this series. How ironic that he was only tolerable when he was depressed. I loathe the way the series and the audience treat him as a breakout kind of character, applauding when he swaggers in or utters one line. This is everything that’s stereotypically bad about American sitcoms and of course immediately draws parallels with Fonzie in Happy Days (possibly deliberately). The Maryverse has been mostly free of this, so it’s particularly jarring here. He's a cardboard cutout and brings absolutely no value to the show.

Even more mind-boggling than Rhoda taking a job at a penny-ante costume shop is… Ida taking a job at the same penny-ante costume shop.

On the plus side, there’s been the return of Martin to the series. The Home Movies episode felt as though it had quite a lot of filler with the time spent watching said movies, but it was entertaining (even if, again, there was arguably the vanity trip of having Valerie and Julie dressing up in fat suits for them to draw attention to their weight loss in the current episodes). It may not have been much of a story, but it was still a good one, with Rhoda and Brenda’s visits done out of filial duty and clearly a chore for them, not knowing that Ida and Martin would prefer time to themselves anyway. The episode’s resolution, with them all ultimately enjoying spending time together, remembering happy times, was as warm and lovely as it was cheesy. It really captured that feeling of family, and is my favourite episode of the season so far (which is perhaps a backhanded compliment).

That episode had snowfall, and a number of other episodes have had heavy rain going on outside the windows which is nice to see and makes for good atmosphere.
 

Crimson

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As you can tell, I’m watching the episodes at quite a rate. Unfortunately, my mentality around it is less “I can’t stop watching” and more “let’s get this over with”. I fear if I drag this season out I’ll lose the will to live, or at the very least the will to continue.

And that's a shame, that your long exploration of the MTM-verse will end on a sour note; perhaps one day LOU GRANT will offer you a rebound!

But this also reinforces my own justification for quitting shows long before they end. Better to end with intriguing possibilities than confirmed disappointments.

That episode had snowfall, and a number of other episodes have had heavy rain going on outside the windows which is nice to see and makes for good atmosphere.

Nice to know that RHODA carried that over from MTM. The changing seasons outside of Mary's apartment window added so much seasonal ambience. I don't recall the second apartment being as effective at portraying that, but I suppose that's the drawback to a high rise.
 
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Mel O'Drama

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And that's a shame, that your long exploration of the MTM-verse will end on a sour note

I haven't given up on the idea that Rhoda might pick up a bit as they wrap it up.

There are a couple of bright spots. Firstly, the last season is quite short. Secondly, I plan to watch some MTM bonus material after finishing Rhoda. And, as you said, there's still Lou Grant on the distant horizon.



But this also reinforces my own justification for quitting shows long before they end. Better to end with intriguing possibilities than confirmed disappointments.

Given that many such shows go off the boil after a certain point, I'm sure you have the right idea.




The changing seasons outside of Mary's apartment window added so much seasonal ambience. I don't recall the second apartment being as effective at portraying that, but I suppose that's the drawback to a high rise.

I remember it the same way, with the tower block feeling less in touch with the kind of Minneapolis-specific climate.
 

tommie

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I haven't given up on the idea that Rhoda might pick up a bit as they wrap it up.
I felt the last season sort of started to get the hang of a "buddy" comedy, which it was clearly trying to be. Not greatness or anything that would make you sad it was cancelled, but sort of starting to find a bit of traction with it. Then again, I just hated Joe, the fact they married off Rhoda and was excited to see the last of him.
 

Mel O'Drama

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And now a word from our "sponsor"....

Filmed in 1997; impressive they were able to capture the look and vibe so well.


It completely fooled me (for whatever that's worth).






Never aired as they either couldn't get rights to the music and/or Mary herself nixed it (different reasons given online).

As I watched, I wondered how they got away with such a close imitation (right down to the original vocal).

And it turns out they didn't.

Was this intended to be part of a series of similar sitcom homages? And as I write this I realise that's pretty much what we got with WandaVision.







I felt the last season sort of started to get the hang of a "buddy" comedy, which it was clearly trying to be.

That sounds like it could be worth hanging on for.



Then again, I just hated Joe, the fact they married off Rhoda and was excited to see the last of him.

They did marry Rhoda off far too quickly. I really liked the character, though, and I was sorry to see him go. So far the evidence suggests that the series is poorer without him than with, but that could be a timing thing.
 

Crimson

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Poor Joe, still controversial 50 years later.

Personally, I disliked neither the actor nor the character, but think that RHODA (and PHYLLIS) just lacked the certainty that MTM had from the first episode.
 

Daniel Avery

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Look up David Groh's turn as abusive DL Brock on General Hospital and you'll be relieved that Rhoda escaped unscathed. Can't say the same for poor Bobbie Spencer.
 

Mel O'Drama

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Rhoda
Season Four
Who’s Shy / All Work And No Play / Happy Anniversary / The Jack Story / Rhoda Cheats / Gary and Ida / As Time Goes By / Two’s Company / Brenda And The Bank Girl / So Long, Lucky / Jack’s Back / Five For The Road: Parts I & II



Some episodes have felt painfully long. Perhaps the most glaring example was Rhoda and Jack locked in the WC for half an episode with only a bottle of champagne for entertainment. There was some pretty poor drunk acting and the episode didn’t really have anything to say, so it felt like filler.

As the season has progressed, I’ve realised that Jack is analogous with MTM’s Lou Grant and Phyllis’s Dan Valenti: the gruff boss with the soft underbelly who has a quiet respect for the leading lady (and which is reciprocated in turn, despite their frequent clashes).

Speaking of Dan Valenti, Carmine Caridi had a significant guest role as a police officer in So Long, Lucky. Since he was last seen very recently as a main character from another series in the franchise this I expected it to jar more than it did. As it turned out, his series of Rhoda-related mishaps throughout the episode meant it was one of the funnier ones for all concerned. The moment where Rhoda watched in frozen horror as the bird flew from the cage out of the window got some huge laughs in the O’Drama house, and I also loved that the episode tapped into Rhoda’s pushier nature where she could not accept and let go of the fact that this man did not want to be around her, and so the circle went on.

Two’s Company - the episode in which Benny bought into Gary’s jeans empire - saw the most annoying of caricatures in Tina the hopeless assistant, whose little quirks were liberally and unsubtly piled-on for the sake of creating a broad sitcom character. It seemed like a one-off, so how my heart sank at seeing this episode noted on Wikipedia as her “first appearance”. It seems she’s to be a regular for the final season. Now I’m definitely counting my blessings that it’s short, but I’m hopeful she might be tweaked to make her more palatable for regular viewing, just as Gary was. He was a character I found overbearing in his first couple of appearances, but the new, improved Gary quickly won me over and I’m sorry he won’t be in the final season. It’s also disappointing he never had a proper exit, but that seems par for the course with supporting characters in this series (Sally Gallagher springs to mind).

Any episode with a focus on the wider Morganstern clan is usually one of the better ones. The “surprise there’s no surprise party (but there is really... Surprise)” anniversary episode had its moments. Brenda’s imitation of Ida at her most assertive in Who’s Shy was really funny, while her sassy attempts to psyche out the competition in Brenda And The Bank Girl were also fun. Her eating the entire chocolate bar in the final episode was a tad annoying, though. This is due to the writing, not Julie Kavner's performance which is always solid. I just found it unbelievable that Brenda would do something so selfish in that particular situation.

In scenes where food is involved I still get distracted when noticing that none of it ever goes near Valerie Harper’s lips. She’ll serve it, talk appreciatively about it, push it round, gesticulate with it in her hand… anything but eat it. One exception came in the final episode where I saw her eat some of a (possibly botulism-infested) peach. Really, though, the weight loss became less jarring as the season progressed, and I think wardrobe, hair and makeup had much to do with it. Rhoda’s hair got a bit fuller and softer, diffusing any unflattering angular lines in the face, while in place of the abundance of skin (and bone) and very tight tops from the first half of the year, she increasingly wore dresses that were straight or even loose with light - almost diaphanous - material that created a very flattering wispy, floaty, softening effect. Valerie also looked healthier later in the season, and lost the shocking grey pallor on display in early S4 episodes.

The final two-parter was enjoyable enough. I always enjoy a cosy, haunted house type of atmosphere, and this had plenty of that, right down to the thunderstorm as the five remaining characters travelled in the car (the Poor Man's Process adding to the intimacy). As a change of pace it worked fine.

Summing up, then, while this is far from the best this series has to offer (much less the entire Maryverse), I feel it overcame some of its challenges and recovered towards the end enough for me to feel optimistic about the final short season.
 

Crimson

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Any episode with a focus on the wider Morganstern clan is usually one of the better ones.

Skimming through IMDB, I was surprised to see how infrequently Ida (41) and Martin (16) actually appeared. I know Nancy Walker left for a season, but my recollection was the Morganstern parents being prevalent in the show.

I always enjoy a cosy, haunted house type of atmosphere, and this had plenty of that, right down to the thunderstorm as the five remaining characters travelled in the car

I don't recall these episodes at all, but the plot is intriguing. I too am a sucker for comedy in a haunted house (-style) setting, although generally find these rarely work as well after B&W fell out of fashion.

Summing up, then, while this is far from the best this series has to offer (much less the entire Maryverse), I feel it overcame some of its challenges and recovered towards the end enough for me to feel optimistic about the final short season.

I find myself wondering if I ever actually watched RHODA in its entirety, as your comments on S4 have triggered no memories. I thought I had watched it all; at some point it may have just turned into background noise to me as during the time I would have watched RHODA in reruns I was less inclined than I am now to quit a show.
 
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Mel O'Drama

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I was surprised to see how infrequently Ida (41) and Martin (16) actually appeared. I know Nancy Walker left for a season, but my recollection was the Morganstern parents being prevalent in the show.

Back when I started Rhoda's first season, I remember us agreeing that Ida was best in small doses, and I got the impression from what you said that Ida could end up a little overused in the series, with familiarity breeding contempt.

I'm delighted that your memory around this was a little different from what we actually got, because Ida has mostly kept her scene-stealing ability. Season Four is the one in which she's most heavily appeared, and even that was 14 of the 24 episodes (Seasons One and Two were 9 a pop).

Martin is the character who always leaves me wanting more. He's classed as a regular for Season Four (at least, he is according to Wikipedia), but he only appeared in two episodes. The series does a nice job of his absences not being glaring, but I still wish we'd seen him a little more.





I find myself wondering if I ever actually watched RHODA in its entirety, as your comments on S4 have triggered no memories.

This season is actually pretty forgettable, so your background noise theory is still quite probable.

Of the thirteen seasons I've watched in the Maryverse so far, I'd say Rhoda S4 is the worst. It's certainly the one that feels the most like a generic American sitcom. The fact that Johnny Venture appeared in almost half the episodes sums it up.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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The fact that Johnny Venture appeared in almost half the episodes sums it up.

Yes, RHODA's changing/lack-of identities, already much-discussed, always leaves me perplexed. Once they dispensed with the family/Joe dynamic from the early years, deliberately shifting to single-girl-Rhoda-in-Manhattan, I can't decide if they did their late-'70s-disco-era thing too much, or if they should've leaned into it more than they did, shifting into a Slutty-Rhoda-does-Studio-54 distinctiveness where Rhoda & Brenda wind up like Diane Keaton at the end of LOOKING FOR MR. GOODBAR.

It's the perfect counterbalance to the bittersweet finale of MARY TYLER MOORE. And perhaps more honest. Certainly more unusual for series television.
 
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