Russia begins the invasion

Snarky Oracle!

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This is the real reason Putin invaded.

Note to performers: you can't really get away with this kind of semi-naked gay leather dance if you have any extra body fat at all.
 

Angela Channing

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Several things posted on this thread recently are factually incorrect, or I fundamentally disagree with them, so I will push back on some of them.

1. Johnson is a discredited serial liar who was forced to resign because of his dishonesty. Almost everyone in the UK doesn't take anything he says seriously any more. To use him as a reliable source for anything is about as useful as using Benjamin Netanyahu as a character witness.

2. There is no proxy war, that is just repeating Trump and Putin misinformation to direct attention away from the fact that Russia is the aggressor that invaded Ukraine.

3. European countries are supporting Ukraine's efforts to fight off Russia partly to deter Putin from doing the same to other countries. If he is allowed to get away with invading Ukraine without any resistance, what's to stop him from doing the same with Poland? Failure to respond to Putin's invasion of Crimea, emboldened him to carry out the invasion of the rest of Ukraine.

4. The USA has been supporting Ukraine because when Russia goes for Poland, Estonia or another NATO country, because of Article 5, the USA would have to take the action necessary to defend the member state that was attacked. Resisting the aggression now, protects NATO countries from future Russian invasions.

5. Boris Johnson did not tell Zelenskyy not to accept a peace deal, not least because there was never any peace deal offered. If anything, Zelenskyy has been even more hard-line on this than other European heads of states.

6. NATO never made any promises not to expand and to suggest it did so people can justify the Russian invasion of Ukraine is plain wrong.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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Putin isn't after eastern Europe. Your talking-points to the contrary.

But go ahead: kill another one-million-plus Ukrainians. Blackrock is just happily waiting in the wings to pick up the pieces.
 

Frank Underwood

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1. Even "Discredited serial liars" like Boris Johnson usually end up telling on themselves because they relish being contemptible. When they do, I tend to believe them.

2. It's most definitely a proxy war. Anti-Russia sentiment is extremely strong in the American political establishment. Politicians routinely talk more about destroying/crushing Russia and Putin than they do about defending Ukraine. As journalist Glenn Greenwald put it, "The purpose of the NATO war in Ukraine was never to defend Ukrainians. That was the childish fairy tale fed to Western populations to get them to support yet another proxy war. It was to sacrifice Ukraine to enrich the Raytheons and weaken Russia."

3. Putin has said he has no interest in Poland, and would only invade if Poland attacked Russia first.

4. My second bullet point covers why the US is really "supporting" Ukraine. It's about weapons deals in the hundreds of billions, as well as targeting our enemy Russia.

5. There is reporting to suggest that Boris Johnson did indeed tell Zelensky not to accept a peace deal on behalf of the West: Diplomacy Watch: Did Boris Johnson help stop a peace deal in Ukraine? | Responsible Statecraft

6. I've never been one to say that Putin was "justified" in his invasion of Ukraine, but I understand the provocation involved. To say that NATO didn't make any promises not to expand "is plain wrong." Here's some reporting from Salon on the subject:

The most critical events that have been airbrushed out of the West's political narrative are the violation of agreements made by Western leaders at the end of the Cold War not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, and the U.S.-backed coup in Ukraine in February 2014. Western mainstream media accounts date the crisis in Ukraine back to Russia's 2014 reintegration of Crimea, and the decision by ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine to secede from Ukraine as the Luhansk and Donetsk People's Republics.

But these were not unprovoked actions. They were responses to the U.S.-backed coup, in which an armed mob led by the neo-Nazi Right Sector militia stormed the Ukrainian parliament, forcing elected President Viktor Yanukovych and members of his party to flee for their lives. After the events of Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington, that scenario should now be easier for Americans to understand.

Source: https://www.salon.com/2022/02/02/in...asco-the-us-is-reaping-exactly-what-it-sowed/

Here's another Salon article that discusses Western duplicity. It also details how several government officials expressed their concerns about NATO expansion:

Source: https://www.salon.com/2022/01/30/ye...nt-mean-his-ukraine-demands-are-unreasonable/

Journalist Aaron Maté and Professor John Mearsheimer discuss how NATO provoked Russia:

U.S. ADMITS Russia Was Provoked Into Invading Ukraine! w/ John Mearsheimer
 
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Snarky Oracle!

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For those grasping for even greater substance, Putin and Netanyahu both are Sun in Libra/Scorpio Rising (different Monn signs).

Bibi is basically a horoscopic cross between Putin and Stalin (which we call "Putin in a Stall").

6095f955a31024adbdc69ecf.jpeg
 
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Frank Underwood

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The establishment tools at CNN and MSNBC are flat out admitting that the money spent on the Ukraine War is being paid to US defense contractors.

What's funny is they're saying this as if it's a good thing, and they believe it should incentivize Americans to be for the war. In reality, it exposes the scam.

Retired Admiral James Stavridis said it's about " making our defense industrial base stronger while Russia gets weaker." In other words, the US is fighting a proxy war.

CNN ADMITS Ukraine War Is All About MONEY!
 
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Angela Channing

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1. Even "Discredited serial liars" like Boris Johnson usually end up telling on themselves because they relish being contemptible. When they do, I tend to believe them.

2. It's most definitely a proxy war. Anti-Russia sentiment is extremely strong in the American political establishment. Politicians routinely talk more about destroying/crushing Russia and Putin than they do about defending Ukraine. As journalist Glenn Greenwald put it, "The purpose of the NATO war in Ukraine was never to defend Ukrainians. That was the childish fairy tale fed to Western populations to get them to support yet another proxy war. It was to sacrifice Ukraine to enrich the Raytheons and weaken Russia."

3. Putin has said he has no interest in Poland, and would only invade if Poland attacked Russia first.

4. My second bullet point covers why the US is really "supporting" Ukraine. It's about weapons deals in the hundreds of billions, as well as targeting our enemy Russia.

5. There is reporting to suggest that Boris Johnson did indeed tell Zelensky not to accept a peace deal on behalf of the West: Diplomacy Watch: Did Boris Johnson help stop a peace deal in Ukraine? | Responsible Statecraft

6. I've never been one to say that Putin was "justified" in his invasion of Ukraine, but I understand the provocation involved. To say that NATO didn't make any promises not to expand "is plain wrong." Here's some reporting from Salon on the subject:

The most critical events that have been airbrushed out of the West's political narrative are the violation of agreements made by Western leaders at the end of the Cold War not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, and the U.S.-backed coup in Ukraine in February 2014. Western mainstream media accounts date the crisis in Ukraine back to Russia's 2014 reintegration of Crimea, and the decision by ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine to secede from Ukraine as the Luhansk and Donetsk People's Republics.

But these were not unprovoked actions. They were responses to the U.S.-backed coup, in which an armed mob led by the neo-Nazi Right Sector militia stormed the Ukrainian parliament, forcing elected President Viktor Yanukovych and members of his party to flee for their lives. After the events of Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington, that scenario should now be easier for Americans to understand.

Source: https://www.salon.com/2022/02/02/in...asco-the-us-is-reaping-exactly-what-it-sowed/

Here's a lengthier excerpt from another Salon article detailing how several government officials expressed their concerns about NATO expansion:

Putin's central demand is that NATO remove troops from countries that joined the group of U.S.-allied nations after 1997. In 1990, under George H.W. Bush, Secretary of State James Baker repeatedly promised Soviet premier Mikhail Gorbachev and other Soviet leaders that if the USSR let the Warsaw Pact nations leave, NATO would not "move one inch eastward." As is detailed in declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents released in 2017, Bush and the leaders of West Germany, the U.K. and France gave similar assurances.

When the German magazine Der Spiegel examined these documents and interviewed those involved, its reporters concluded that "there was no doubt that the West did everything it could to give the Soviets the impression that NATO membership was out of the question for countries like Poland, Hungary or Czechoslovakia."

Today, those three former Warsaw Pact countries and two others, in addition to the three former Baltic Soviet republics and several formerly neutral countries, are members of NATO.

Putin and other Russian leaders have complained bitterly about this Western duplicity, complaints echoed by Gorbachev. Numerous others have made similar criticisms, including former CIA Director Robert Gates, Cold War diplomat and historian George Kennan, and Jack Matlock, the last U.S. ambassador to the Soviet Union.

In 1995, 18 retired U.S. foreign service and State and Defense Department officers signed a letter denouncing these NATO recruitments, saying they would convince Russians that the U.S. was seeking to "isolate, encircle, and subordinate them." It is this NATO penetration into Russia's sphere that is the root cause of the current conflict.

Some justify NATO's expansion by claiming Russia was a threat to its neighbors. Yet in the decade after the fall of the USSR, the Russian economy and military were in catastrophic condition.

Source: https://www.salon.com/2022/01/30/ye...nt-mean-his-ukraine-demands-are-unreasonable/
Boris Johnson is a lying former Prime Minister with no power, no respect and no credibility but you choose to believe him over the voices of other current European leaders because it fits your narrative better than the facts.

NATO countries have mostly refused to give Ukraine weapons that would allow strikes on Russian territory because they feared they would escalate the war. If they were carrying out a "proxy war" to weaken Russia why would that be a concern of theirs?

Russian border guards have already been encroaching on Estonian territory in the Narva River. Donald Tusk has warned that Russia will invade Poland next if he succeeds in Ukraine. Putin hasn't made a secret of his desire to restore the old Soviet Union which is why so many European leaders are energised to help Ukraine to defend its territory. I trust Donald Tusk more than I trust Putin.

Stories about a deal between Russia and Ukraine to stop the war are bogus. Zelensky has always said a peace deal must include the restoration of Ukraine’s territorial integrity and for it to be allowed to join NATO. Unless Putin agreed to that (he wouldn't) it's inconceivable that there was any peace deal that Boris The Clown persuaded him to reject.

There is absolutely no agreement that NATO wouldn't expand eastwards or in any direction for that matter. A article from a beauty parlour, or whatever "Salon" is, is not evidence, it's just repeating Russian propaganda. If there was an agreement, where is it? Where and when was it signed?

For those grasping for even greater substance, Putin and Netanyahu both are Sun in Libra/Scorpio Rising (different Monn signs).

Bibi is basically a horoscopic cross between Putin and Stalin (which we call "Putin in a Stall").
This illustrates the strength of the evidence to rebut many of the points made by @Laurie! and me.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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Boris Johnson is a lying former Prime Minister with no power, no respect and no credibility but you choose to believe him over the voices of other current European leaders because it fits your narrative better than the facts.

You're just trying to neutralize the fact that you got caught asserting -- wrongly -- that Boris Johnson "never" called the slaughter in Ukraine "a proxy war."

Well played, Angela Channing. But not at all.

This illustrates the strength of the evidence to rebut many of the points made by @Laurie! and me.

And see how easy it is??

Oh, and by the way, comparisons between Putin and Stalin aren't compliments for Putin.

Duh.
 
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Laurie!

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If people have contempt for Trump, shouldn't they also have contempt for the prior provocateurs? Journalist Aaron Mate rightly pointed out that "Russia intervened in Ukraine in August 2014 -- four months after the US-backed coup government launched an assault on the Donbas. Russia's aim was to prevent its eastern Ukrainian allies from being overrun and to force Ukraine to negotiate a peace deal, which succeeded with the Minsk Accords. Ukrainian ultra-nationalists, with US backing, sabotaged Minsk. When Zelensky was elected on a peace platform, they openly threatened his life if he implemented Minsk. Russia's main 'demand' in 2021-2022 was Ukrainian neutrality. If that's "capitulation", why was it enshrined in Ukraine's founding constitution, supported by a large segment of Ukrainians, and even initially accepted by Zelensky?" Good question.

As for Gaza, I said in the Israel thread that Trump's advocating for ethnic cleansing. Trump and his son in law see the rebuilding of Gaza as a business opportunity. That is vile, but so was the prior administration's funding of Netanyahu's genocide in Gaza. Netanyahu wants the Palestinians out of Gaza just like Trump. The difference is he wants to wipe them off the planet, while Trump wants to relocate them in other countries. Both actions should constitute war crimes, but I find genocide even worse. As for demanding Ukraine's rare Earth minerals in exchange for negotiating peace goes, that's obviously despicable. However, so is funding a proxy war under the guise of "defending" Ukraine. I imagine it's much more difficult to ask "at what cost" should peace come when your life is in constant danger. Trump's a contemptible person, but so are his predecessors.
Your narrative for excusing Putin and Trump is equivalent to a child defending himself by saying, "but he started it first".

Bottom line is, I don't need to go down an internet rabbit hole from events over a decade ago to know that Russia illegally invaded Ukraine and is slaughtering innocent Ukrainians right now. Trump also publicly brags about demanding ownership of Ukraine's earth minerals for American "help" and he believes Zelensky is the villain instead of Putin.

Same thing with Gaza. The Hamas terrorist attack was disgusting and those who participated and planned the attack/murders, deserve to be punished/killed. However, killing over 100,000 innocent people, destroying every standing structure and demanding they leave their homeland in response is even more morally indefensible i.m.o. That's all happening right now on Trump's and Netanyahu's watch.
 
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Snarky Oracle!

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Your narrative for excusing Putin and Trump is equivalent to a child defending himself by saying, "but he started it first".

But that's not what he said at all!

Bottom line is, I don't need to go down an internet rabbit hole from events over a decade ago to know that Russia illegally invaded Ukraine and is slaughtering innocent Ukrainians right now. Trump also publicly brags about demanding ownership of Ukraine's earth minerals for American "help" and he believes Zelensky is the villain instead of Putin.

Details. Only the ones you like really matter.

Same thing with Gaza. The Hamas terrorist attack was disgusting and those who participated and planned the attack/murders, deserve to be punished/killed. However, killing over 100,000 innocent people, destroying every standing structure and demanding they leave their homeland in response is even more morally indefensible i.m.o. That's all happening right now on Trump's watch.

Why is leaving (also very unfair) worse than mass murder??
 

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Boris Johnson is a lying former Prime Minister with no power, no respect and no credibility but you choose to believe him over the voices of other current European leaders because it fits your narrative better than the facts.

NATO countries have mostly refused to give Ukraine weapons that would allow strikes on Russian territory because they feared they would escalate the war. If they were carrying out a "proxy war" to weaken Russia why would that be a concern of theirs?

Russian border guards have already been encroaching on Estonian territory in the Narva River. Donald Tusk has warned that Russia will invade Poland next if he succeeds in Ukraine. Putin hasn't made a secret of his desire to restore the old Soviet Union which is why so many European leaders are energised to help Ukraine to defend its territory. I trust Donald Tusk more than I trust Putin.

Stories about a deal between Russia and Ukraine to stop the war are bogus. Zelensky has always said a peace deal must include the restoration of Ukraine’s territorial integrity and for it to be allowed to join NATO. Unless Putin agreed to that (he wouldn't) it's inconceivable that there was any peace deal that Boris The Clown persuaded him to reject.

There is absolutely no agreement that NATO wouldn't expand eastwards or in any direction for that matter. A article from a beauty parlour, or whatever "Salon" is, is not evidence, it's just repeating Russian propaganda. If there was an agreement, where is it? Where and when was it signed?
Salon is the name of a news publication. If you actually bothered to read the article rather than mocking the name of the publication, you would see the specific sources cited.

The fact that NATO countries have been reluctant to allow Ukraine to strike Russian territory isn't that surprising. According to an article in the New York Times, "“The United States ultimately would carry a lot of the burden of responding if there was a significant escalation by Russia." Weakening Russia from within Ukraine is more advantageous.

As for Johnson, I'm reminded of your own words about Trump. You said, "When people tell you who they are, believe them." My "narrative" has been formed precisely by following the facts. There is reporting to suggest a peace deal was on the table, and Johnson discouraged it on behalf of the West. I also believe Johnson's admission that the West is fighting a proxy war. What incentive would he have to lie about that? It would also explain why he wouldn't want the war to end. You can choose to believe he's lying, and that the reporting is a fabrication, but I didn't pull that from my ass. Unlike, say, the claim that Russia is the lone aggressor and NATO never promised not to expand.

Again, the irony of accusing me of pushing "Russian propaganda" as you push US mainstream media propaganda is such a hoot!
 

Angela Channing

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You're just trying to neutralize the fact that you got caught asserting -- wrongly -- that Boris Johnson "never" called the slaughter in Ukraine "a proxy war."

Well played, Angela Channing. But not at all.
Because Boris Johnson says something, it doesn't make it true no matter how much conspiracy theorists like Jimmy Dore try to promote it as such. When the facts contradict the liar, believe the facts.
 

Frank Underwood

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Because Boris Johnson says something, it doesn't make it true no matter how much conspiracy theorists like Jimmy Dore try to promote it as such. When the facts contradict the liar, believe the facts.
Jimmy Dore wasn't cited as a source in this matter! And how do the facts contradict the liar? Were you with Johnson when he went to Kyiv? How do you know the reporters are lying? The report that Johnon told Zelensky not to accept a peace deal didn't come from "conspiracy theorists." It was reported on by journalists you've undermined.
 
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Angela Channing

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Salon is the name of a news publication. If you actually bothered to read the article rather than mocking the name of the publication, you would see the specific sources cited.

The fact that NATO countries have been reluctant to allow Ukraine to strike Russian territory isn't that surprising. According to an article in the New York Times, "“The United States ultimately would carry a lot of the burden of responding if there was a significant escalation by Russia." Weakening Russia from within Ukraine is more advantageous.

As for Johnson, I'm reminded of your own words about Trump. You said, "When people tell you who they are, believe them." My "narrative" has been formed precisely by following the facts. There is reporting to suggest a peace deal was on the table, and Johnson discouraged it on behalf of the West. I also believe Johnson's admission that the West is fighting a proxy war. What incentive would he have to lie about that? It would also explain why he wouldn't want the war to end. You can choose to believe he's lying, and that the reporting is a fabrication, but I didn't pull that from my ass. Unlike, say, the claim that Russia is the lone aggressor and NATO never promised not to expand.

Again, the irony of accusing me of pushing "Russian propaganda" as you push US mainstream media propaganda is such a hoot!
You didn't answer my question: where is the agreement that NATO wouldn't expand? When was it signed? Where was it signed? Who signed it? I'll answer for you: NO SUCH AGREEMENT EXISTS!

You talk about a peace deal that lying charlatan Johnson discouraged Zelenskyy from accepting. Who negotiated the deal? What were the terms of the deal? When was it agreed? I'll answer for you: NO SUCH DEAL EXISTS!

Maybe both imaginary agreements were made under the same star signs.

Jimmy Dore was never even cited as a source in this matter!
Really? It was a Jimmy Dore conspiracy theory video that was used to contradict me:

Boris Johnson actually says here at ~01:40, that "let's face it, we're waging a proxy war..." verbatim:

Boris Johnson ADMITS Ukraine Is A Proxy War!
 

Frank Underwood

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Your narrative for excusing Putin and Trump is equivalent to a child defending himself by saying, "but he started it first".
What am I "excusing Putin and Trump" of, exactly? Why do you only want to hold them accountable, but not the people who provoked Russia?

Speaking of childish things, I personally find it juvenile to expect everything that led up to Putin's invasion be left out of this discussion.

Bottom line is, I don't need to go down an internet rabbit hole from events over a decade ago to know that Russia illegally invaded Ukraine and is slaughtering innocent Ukrainians right now. Trump also publicly brags about demanding ownership of Ukraine's earth minerals for American "help" and he believes Zelensky is the villain instead of Putin.
As the saying goes, people who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Knowing why the invasion happened and holding people accountable for it is vital.

Trump deserves contempt for wanting to steal Ukraine's resources, but the US backers of the 2014 coup in Ukraine and the 2022 proxy war are also deserving of contempt.

Same thing with Gaza. The Hamas terrorist attack was disgusting and those who participated and planned the attack/murders, deserve to be punished/killed. However, killing over 100,000 innocent people, destroying every standing structure and demanding they leave their homeland in response is even more morally indefensible i.m.o. That's all happening right now on Trump's and Netanyahu's watch.
But you seemed fine with a genocide happening on Biden's watch, and you wanted Americans to vote for Harris (who also would have allowed it to happen.)

Forcing people from their homes is abhorrent. Funding their genocide is even worse IMO.
 
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Frank Underwood

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You didn't answer my question: where is the agreement that NATO wouldn't expand? When was it signed? Where was it signed? Who signed it? I'll answer for you: NO SUCH AGREEMENT EXISTS!
It doesn't appear that there was an official agreement, but assurances were made when Geroge H.W. Bush was President in 1990:

Putin's central demand is that NATO remove troops from countries that joined the group of U.S.-allied nations after 1997. In 1990, under George H.W. Bush, Secretary of State James Baker repeatedly promised Soviet premier Mikhail Gorbachev and other Soviet leaders that if the USSR let the Warsaw Pact nations leave, NATO would not "move one inch eastward." As is detailed in declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents released in 2017, Bush and the leaders of West Germany, the U.K. and France gave similar assurances.

When the German magazine Der Spiegel examined these documents and interviewed those involved, its reporters concluded that "there was no doubt that the West did everything it could to give the Soviets the impression that NATO membership was out of the question for countries like Poland, Hungary or Czechoslovakia."

Source: Yes, Putin's a tyrant — that doesn't mean his Ukraine demands are unreasonable | Salon.com

You talk about a peace deal that lying charlatan Johnson discouraged Zelenskyy from accepting. Who negotiated the deal? What were the terms of the deal? When was it agreed? I'll answer for you: NO SUCH DEAL EXISTS!
TYPING IN ALL CAPS doesn't prove your point, which is indeed being disputed:

“Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement,” wrote Fiona Hill and Angela Stent. “Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries.”

The news highlights the impact of former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s efforts to stop negotiations, as journalist Branko Marcetic noted on Twitter. The decision to scuttle the deal coincided with Johnson’s April visit to Kyiv, during which he reportedly urged Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky to break off talks with Russia for two key reasons: Putin cannot be negotiated with, and the West isn’t ready for the war to end.

Source: Diplomacy Watch: Did Boris Johnson help stop a peace deal in Ukraine? | Responsible Statecraft

Really? It was a Jimmy Dore conspiracy theory video that was used to contradict me:
I'd forgotten about that because it wasn't posted presently. However, Jimmy Dore played a clip of Johnson calling it a proxy war verbatim. It didn't come from Dore himself.
 
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Laurie!

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What am I "excusing Putin and Trump" of, exactly? Why do you only want to hold them accountable, but not the people who provoked Russia?
You keep using terms to justify Russia's illegal invasion/annexation like "rightly intervened in Ukraine" and "provoked"...very sad. I'm not sure if you even realize it.

Using your rationale, it can easily be argued the U.S. deserved 9/11. I would potentially support that logic (though I believe in due process) if the actual Americans involved with propping up dictators and foreign interference that caused the deaths of thousands, were the ones who were targeted. However, only innocent Americans and other foreign nationals were brutally killed on 9/11. Very much the same as Ukraine/Gaza. ...so it's wrong!

Speaking of childish things, I personally find it juvenile to expect everything that led up to Putin's invasion be left out of this discussion.


As the saying goes, people who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Knowing why the invasion happened and holding people accountable for it is vital.

Trump deserves contempt for wanting to steal Ukraine's resources, but the US backers of the 2014 coup in Ukraine and the 2022 proxy war are also deserving of contempt.


But you seemed fine with a genocide happening on Biden's watch, and you wanted Americans to vote for Harris (who also would have allowed it to happen.)

Forcing people from their homes is abhorrent. Funding their genocide is even worse IMO.
The U.S., Russia and Israel haven't learned anything from history. They're breeding more terrorists for future generations.

The Ukrainian and Gazan civilians didn't do anything wrong. So you trying to extrapolate parts of history to justify...ahem...excuse genocide/slaughter and calling them "proxy wars" is sad.

I didn't support genocide under Biden at all. I've been very consistent in my disdain for supporting the Israeli slaughter of civilians (Same as Hamas terrorists murdering innocent Israelis instead of people who've done them wrong). Especially since Israel has shown that their special forces are capable of pinpoint/precision strikes against individuals known for planning/carrying out the 10/7 the attacks.
 
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Frank Underwood

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You keep using terms to justify Russia's illegal invasion/annexation like "rightly intervened in Ukraine" and "provoked"...very sad. I'm not sure if you even realize it.
I said a journalist "rightly pointed out" what led to Russia intervening in Ukraine. That's hardly the same thing as saying Russia "rightly intervened in Ukraine."

Saying the West and NATO provoked Russia is simply a fact, but I never said it "justified" Putin's invasion of Ukraine. This is classic strawman argumentation on your part.

I have the same take on Gaza. I acknowledge that Hamas terrorists provoked Israel on October 7, 2023, but that didn't justify Israel's genocide in Gaza.

Using your rationale, it can easily be argued the U.S. deserved 9/11. I would potentially support that logic (though I believe in due process) if the actual Americans involved with propping up dictators and foreign interference that caused the deaths of thousands, were the ones who were targeted. However, only innocent Americans and other foreign nationals were brutally killed on 9/11. Very much the same as Ukraine/Gaza. ...so it's wrong!
Again, you're making a strawman argument. Your assumption that I believe Ukraine "deserved" to be invaded by Russia is factually incorrect. I've called Putin an imperialist, a war monger, and a madman on several occasions, but you always gloss over that. However, one can condemn Putin's actions, while also acknowledging that the actions taken by NATO and the West provoked Putin in the name of US imperialism. You're actually making my point with your 9/11 comparison, and you don't even realize it! The innocent Americans and foreign nationals didn't deserve to be murdered by terrorists on 9/11. However, acknowledging the provocation by US imperialists doesn't undermine that fact.

The U.S., Russia and Israel haven't learned anything from history. They're breeding more terrorists for future generations.

The Ukrainian and Gazan civilians didn't do anything wrong. So you trying to extrapolate parts of history to justify...ahem...excuse genocide/slaughter and calling them "proxy wars" is sad.
That's a load of crap. I never said that Ukrainian and Gazan civilians did anything wrong. If I was trying to excuse their genocide and slaughter (which is a despicable claim), do you think I'd be constantly calling for peace in those regions? Calling the conflict a "proxy war" doesn't mean that the citizens of Ukraine aren't victims. If anything, it solidifies that fact because they're being used as pawns by the West. The US's goal is to weaken Putin and Russia by any means necessary, and they'll use Ukrainians as cannon fodder to do so. To acknowledge that Putin was provoked doesn't excuse his invasion of Ukraine, but the US and NATO's role in provoking him shouldn't be swept under the rug either.

I didn't support genocide under Biden at all. I've been very consistent in my disdain for supporting the Israeli slaughter of civilians. Especially since they've shown that their special forces are capable of pinpoint/precision strikes against individuals known for planning/carrying out the 10/7 the attacks.
I've been just as consistent in my disdain of Israel's slaughter of civilians in Gaza, as well as the slaughter of civilians in Ukraine, despite your claims to the contrary.
 
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Laurie!

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There's two guys sitting at a bar. The one guy named Bob Ukraine is trying to keep the other guy, named John Russia from invading his personal space. A fellow patron from across the room named West, tells John Russia to leave Bob Ukraine alone because West doesn't want John Russia to have more space. John Russia doesn't like it, pulls out a gun and shoots Bob Ukraine dead.
Did the patron, West from across the room provoke John Russia? Did Bob Ukraine provoke John Russia? Or, is John Russia ultimately just a vile murderer who felt entitled to Bob Ukraine's place at the bar?
In this case, trying to justify John Russia's illegal and unwarranted killing of Bob Ukraine by acknowledging a partnership between West and Bob Ukraine is ridiculous. The response is ultimately way greater than the alleged provocation (Just like Netanyahu's annihilation of Gaza and the Palestinian people).
 
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Frank Underwood

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That's a great piece of fiction. Claiming the West's provocation amounted to simply telling Russia to "leave Ukraine alone" is beyond disingenuous.

Nobody here ever said that Putin was justified in invading Ukraine, but the fact that the US wanted this war so they could weaken Russia and enrich US defense contractors is equally despicable. Trump is a vile ghoul for wanting to steal Ukraine's minerals, but some people are conveniently forgetting the ghouls who've been keeping the Ukraine War going for the last 3 years. The US only cares about defending their own interests and not innocent Ukrainians. That why I also have contempt for the prior administration.

People are right to condemn Putin for attacking Ukraine, but leaving out US interference is not telling the whole story.
 
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