Grande Dame Guignol

Toni

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But wouldn't it take the hag out of the hagsploitation?
I mean, there are plenty of films about deranged pretty mothers and stepmothers, but it's not exactly the same, is it?
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I just re-watched this one last week, and it was as much a guilty pleasure as I could remember. The background is lavish, Gwyneth is very very slappable, and the Schaech hunk should have had more scenes (maybe shirtless?). Jessica was obviously rehearsing for her "American Horror Story" era, and I must be weird but I understood her character better than Paltrow´s... not that I had used the former´s methods, of course. ;) :lol:
 

Crimson

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wouldn't it take the hag out of the hagsploitation?

I didn't refer to hagsploitation. I don't care for the term very much. For one, it's kind of gross. But it's also not even very accurate unless one thinks every woman over 50 is a hag. The term maybe applies to BABY JANE and FANATIC where the ladies were made to look like haggard crones, but it hardly suits the rest.

Embalmed youth seems just as appropriate for Grande Dame Guignol as decay. If it wasn't such a broad comedy, DEATH BECOMES HER had the basics for the genre.

And I very much consider HUSH to be a late entry in the genre, if a bit of a tepid one. Along with MISERY, it's about the closest to the genre, Grande Dame Guignol or hagsploitation, that we've gotten in decades.
 

Willie Oleson

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I don't care for the term very much.
It's been around for a while, and it wasn't invented by me.
But it's also not even very accurate unless one thinks every woman over 50 is a hag.
It's always been an unkind description even if it looks very accurate (although I must be careful not to side with the evil pseudo-feminists, apparently).

Then let me rephrase it as:
Wouldn't it take the grande out of the grande dame guignol?
Shouldn't there be a sense of (semi-)retirement and also a bit of a surprise? (or shock, I guess).

Glenn Close in Dangerous Liaisons is on the brink of that genre, a character that struggles to hold on to her peak moment, but she's not quite beyond that.
She's still very much in the middle of her dastardly memoires, rather than writing about it.

I'm not saying: we should draw the line exactly *here* or *there*, but on the other hand, look what happens when we don't. That's how everything made in the seventies has now become a "cult" movie.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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(although I must be careful not to side with the evil pseudo-feminists, apparently).

Straw-woman argumentation!

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Crimson

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Wouldn't it take the grande out of the grande dame guignol?
Shouldn't there be a sense of (semi-)retirement and also a bit of a surprise? (or shock, I guess).

You've made great points, I'm not sure why you're resistant to connecting them. A grande dame in 2025 wouldn't look the same as in 1964, but that doesn't mean they can't exist. The heart of Baby Jane and Norma Desmond, and probably Cousin Charlotte, isn't the decay it's the desperation for lost youth. That's just as relevant today than decades ago; it just takes a different form. Regardless of how well plastic surgery techniques advance, there's something unsettling about people in their mid-60s and beyond trying to look 30. I can't attribute this so I'll just paraphrase: one can look old or one can look weird, but one will never again look young.

I've never seen the film so I can't vouch for its quality or even if it's peripherally a Grande Dame Guignol, but the premise of Billy Wilder's FEDORA (1978) is intriguing. An Old Hollywood star who is somehow eternally youthful but, as it turns out, not due to cosmetics or surgery, but by forcing her daughter to masquerade as her. (Wilder had wanted Dietrich and Dunaway -- the cheekbones match -- but Marlene was none-too-thrilled at the offer.) A variation of Norma Desmond to be sure; the delusion can take different forms, but the delusion is the key.
 
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Willie Oleson

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The heart of Baby Jane and Norma Desmond, and probably Cousin Charlotte, isn't the decay it's the desperation for lost youth
the delusion can take different forms, but the delusion is the key.
Yes, that can be a scenario in the GDG genre but I don't understand why you think it defines the genre.
What about the crazy mother who blames the slut for the death of her creepy son? Or a raging, religious fanatic?

I honestly think the "decay" is more about the actress than the character, hence why some or many actresses would never do it.
And that may not be a very nice perspective but, then again, I don't think hagsploitation has ever been a very revered genre. If anything, the guilty pleasure is in the "ploitation" part of the word.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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had wanted Dietrich and Dunaway

OMG! Both are Sun in Capricorn/Virgo Rising/Moon in Leo !

I don't think hagsploitation has ever been a very revered genre. If anything, the guilty pleasure is in the "ploitation" part of the word.

Because most of them just weren't very good. Outside of BABY JANE, CHARLOTTE and THE NANNY, which entries invite a rewatch?
 

Willie Oleson

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Ann Sothern in THE KILLING KIND, Ruth Roman in THE BABY (and also The Killing Kind) both from 1973.
I love Ruth's voice...many actors used to have very distincitve voices.

And Beryl Reid must have done something in the genre.....
 

ClassyCo

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And Beryl Reid must have done something in the genre...
Does THE KILLING OF SISTER GEORGE qualify? It was directed by Robert Aldrich, the man behind the camera of BABY JANE and CHARLOTTE.

I believe we've discussed it here before....



Ann Sothern in THE KILLING KIND, Ruth Roman in THE BABY (and also The Killing Kind) both from 1973.
I love Ruth's voice...many actors used to have very distincitve voices.

And Beryl Reid must have done something in the genre.....
I've never seen either of these, but aren't they more violent and sexually explicit?
 

Snarky Oracle!

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I've been watching HUSH... HUSH, SWEET CHARLOTTE on some broadcast station (despite my having the DVD and a Blu-ray) tonight. Irritatingly, even in 2026, they've bleeped Bette's "bitch!" assessment of her northern cousin over dinner, and the 8:30 grandfather clock "twang" in the prologue has been softened by some goddamnedable lab tech.

At this viewing though, I've been thinking more, as I watch once again, about what the movie might've been like with Joan Crawford in the role of Miriam instead of Olivia de Havilland (had the two über-divas, Bette & Joan, not spent so much effort in their ongoing one-upmanship campaign)... It's easy to picture: a more overtly-malevolent, able-bodied Crawford skulking around the mansion's shadows, the back of the closet containing her shredded gown somehow darker than it would be with Olivia.

And, had Davis & Crawford successfully re-paired to do CHARLOTTE, its memory -- and the memory of WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO BABY JANE? two years earlier -- would likely be different in the decades that would follow. CHARLOTTE might be the better-recalled film because, quite frankly, it's the superior picture (as numerous viewers have observed, though the critics are loathe to concede the point) despite the inexplicable costume-n-coif anachronism error in CHARLOTTE's 1927 prologue.

I like de Havilland in the latter film, and she brings a breezy contrast to Davis (which totally works). But if Crawford, sleek and evil, had appeared in JANE and CHARLOTTE as well, then the two movies would have been even more in competition with each other in collective memory than they already are, and the comparisons (and distinctions) would have been even more apparent. (Or perhaps less). CHARLOTTE's creepy supremacy might have eventually trumped BABY JANE's proportionately quaint hostage narrative (which always makes a picture drag, no matter the quality of execution) even though JANE was the one which initiated the grande dame guignol genre of the '60s. The point accentuated by the fact that none of the other 'hag horror' entries are anywhere near as good as these two. (Although I'll always argue that Davis' THE NANNY is right up there, in its quieter way).

Had Joan Crawford not walked-off of CHARLOTTE, had Bette Davis not done everything to encourage her rival to do just that, then we might have had a picture that was even pitch-blacker than it already was. Some people on the set -- who liked de Havilland -- nonetheless claimed that Mary Astor's scene with Miriam on the steps of the Hollisport courthouse (which had to be re-shot in Hollywood with Olivia, a Coca-Cola truck gliding by in order to besmirch the Pepsi queen gone AWOL) was even better with Astor & Crawford, Jewel Mayhew's dowagerial diss, "Murder starts in the heart, and its first weapon is a vicious tongue!" one of the unacknowledged best lines in cinema history -- especially shocker cinema history.

But, who knows? Maybe the continuation of Crawford in the role of Miriam might have thrown off CHARLOTTE's karma in some unforeseen negative way, reducing the fabulously macabre semi-sequel to something less than the sum of its parts... As it is, with de Havilland as the co-star, the status of HUSH... HUSH, SWEET CHARLOTTE remains that of the secondary, supposedly-lesser film (a position higher-caliber product often occupies).

Bette Davis once said of the other star, "Crawford has a cult; I have fans!" And it would appear to be true. Even today, Joan's remaining dark admirers detest CHARLOTTE, still asserting that it's "cheap trash," a middling knock-off of BABY JANE.

Although there's no question that the two movies are sisters, Velma; they know each other very well.

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Crimson

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I've often waivered on whether Olivia or Joan was the better choice for CHARLOTTE. As my appreciation of Joan has risen through the years, I lean towards wishing she had finished the movie.

No disrespect to Olivia, who I love. I think a couple of her best performances are even better than the best of Davis and Crawford; although her career as a whole wasn't as good as either. The argument in favor of Olivia is that the 'reveal' was a bigger surprise. Fair. After all, De Havilland had rarely played villains. But a surprise lasts for about 5 minutes; quality is eternal. There is nothing technically wrong with De Havilland's performance in CHARLOTTE -- she's quite effective -- but she didn't seem to be having that much fun with such a meaty role. I think Crawford -- or, for that matter, Fontaine -- would have sank their teeth and claws into that role, while Olivia just ran her fingers along the contours.

I don't know if Crawford would have been as surprising in the role. Did audiences in the mid-60s associate her with villain parts? Sure she played bitches more often than Olivia, but not nearly as often as people think. I guess her monstrous roles of the early 50s would still be lingering, but Joan had switched back to victim mode in the subsequent years. Hardly anyone seems to remember that Blanche was the actual villain of BABY JANE. I also don't really buy Davis' apparent complaints that Crawford was being too heavy handed. Whatever flaws Joan had as an actress, being hammy was rarely one. After all the main reason she was so often disregarded as an actress is that her work was too subtle in an age when 'great' acting equaled 'big' acting.

So, yeah, I think I'd prefer Crawford in CHARLOTTE.
 

ClassyCo

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It has been quite a while since I've seen CHARLOTTE, but I'd much rather Joan as Miriam over Olivia.
 

Toni

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Love all your opinions! But come on, the true creep fest would have been Olivia vs. Joan (Fontaine). What a missed opportunity...

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- "Beech!"
- "Lady Dragon!"​
 

Crimson

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I wouldn't have wanted them in CHARLOTTE, but Olivia and the other Joan not appearing in a grande dame guignol was a missed opportunity. Even as fantasy casting, it's hard to reconcile it actually happening. Olivia didn't want to appear in the genre with an actress she loved, let alone a sister she didn't care for.
 

ClassyCo

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Love all your opinions! But come on, the true creep fest would have been Olivia vs. Joan (Fontaine). What a missed opportunity...

View attachment 58814
- "Beech!"
- "Lady Dragon!"​
While I'm quite indifferent to Joan Fontaine, if they could've gotten her and Olivia to do a "hag horror" together, it would've been the camp fest of the century.
 
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