Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

[Marley Drama]

Ted Baxter was the broadest and most potentially cartoonish of MTM's characters. so it's impressive that Knight managed to keep him believable and likeable.

Something that's struck me (but which I mention hesitantly with all the upcoming election brouhaha) is that Ted's mannerisms and facial expressions frequently remind me of Donald Trump. It seems I'm not the only person to have observed this.

Apparently the new apartment bothered someone even more than me, since she wrote a whole article on Psychology Today about it.

It's good to see the passion for the series and character from someone who identifies as a peer of Mary.

Keeping the same furniture may have helped warm up the new set. Plus, it's pretty implausible for someone to just buy all new furniture after they move.

To make it worse, in one of the handful of S6 scenes to occur at the old apartment, Mary told Sue Ann quite definitively that she had bought all the furniture herself

This was in response to a critical comment Sue Ann had made about said furniture, so if we were entering fanfic territory it could be mooted that Mary was so affected by the comments that she decided to replace all the furniture. That would be a huge stretch, though, since Sue Ann can offer barbs for everything Mary buys, wears, eats, dates or does.

Flo Meredith is the only character from MTM to appear on the drama LOU GRANT. I have no interest in watching that show, but one of these days I'll check out that particular episode. If nothing else, I'm curious to see if there's any reference to MTM.

Oh, that's interesting. I did enjoy the scenes between the two of them in that episode, and I've noticed that Flo will appear in another MTM before too long as well.

Regarding Lou Grant, I'm definitely up for watching the whole series, but I'm currently thinking I'll take a prolonged break after MTM/Rhoda/Phyllis to catch up on some other box-sets, and will come back to Lou's series in months or years to come.

The episode also starts some obvious revisionism of Mary's past, establishing that Mary had always wanted to be a journalist and was inspired by her aunt. Of course, there's no indication of this earlier in the series. Mary applied for a job as a secretary in the first episode, and there was no hint that she was specifically interested in TV journalism. When she later started taking journalism classes, it was with a "Oh why not?" kind of attitude. Subsequent episodes continue this revisionism.

While watching I didn't really think about this but now you've highlighted it I can see how much that changed the history of the character.

Well of course you enjoyed MAUDE and RHODA more than me, so there's always a chance you'll find more to enjoy in PHYLLIS too.

Here's hoping. Phyllis had her moments on MTM, but I wouldn't say she was a favourite of mine in the way Rhoda was. I'm certainly curious to see what this series is, and I'm sure it will help that expectations are low.

 

[Crimson]

This was in response to a critical comment Sue Ann had made about said furniture, so if we were entering fanfic territory it could be mooted that Mary was so affected by the comments that she decided to replace all the furniture. That would be a huge stretch, though, since Sue Ann can offer barbs for everything Mary buys, wears, eats, dates or does.

It's funny to think of Mary frantically redecorating -- and breaking her bank account in the process -- due to offhanded insults from Sue Ann.

The in-universe reasons aside, I think the producers were just trying to spruce things up. Brooks & Burns had wanted to end MTM after the 5th season, while they felt the show was still at its peak. They felt they had explored all there was with the characters. Moore, Grant Tinker and the network pushed back, arguing the show was still in its prime. A compromise was reached, agreeing MTM would run another 2 years. So, heading into S6, everyone knew the end was approaching.

Aside from the new setting, two new characters were introduced who the producers did plan to utilize regularly: Paula (Penny Marshall) and Joe (Ted Bessell). I'm not sure why Joe didn't stick around, but Penny hit it big with LAVERNE & SHIRLEY and thus wasn't available for guest appearances.

 

[Soaplover]

It's funny to think of Mary frantically redecorating -- and breaking her bank account in the process -- due to offhanded insults from Sue Ann.

The in-universe reasons aside, I think the producers were just trying to spruce things up. Brooks & Burns had wanted to end MTM after the 5th season, while they felt the show was still at its peak. They felt they had explored all there was with the characters. Moore, Grant Tinker and the network pushed back, arguing the show was still in its prime. A compromise was reached, agreeing MTM would run another 2 years. So, heading into S6, everyone knew the end was approaching.

Aside from the new setting, two new characters were introduced who the producers did plan to utilize regularly: Paula (Penny Marshall) and Joe (Ted Bessell). I'm not sure why Joe didn't stick around, but Penny hit it big with LAVERNE & SHIRLEY and thus wasn't available for guest appearances.

I remember Penny Marshall and Mary Kay Place were introduced in season 6.. in an attempt to recreate the home life environment that MTM had with Rhoda and Phyllis in season 1 through 5. I think MKP only appeared once while PM appeared twice.

I think only focusing on the workplace in final two seasons kind of weakened the show because there wasn't that balance that was in the show in the early years.

Also, I think Mary Richards losing that wide eyed optimism made sense as she embraced the capitalistic lifestyle in Minneapolis as she became more established at the news station and moved into an 'adult' apartment. With Rhoda and Phyllis no longer in the picture, Mary lost that work/life balance that she had.. and that contributed to the change in her character and attitude.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Penny Marshall and Mary Kay Place were obviously positioned to become Mary's new irritating neighbors in her new high-rise apartment complex, but Penny was snatched up for LAVERNE & SHIRLEY and Place was snatched up for MARY HARTMAN, MARY HARTMAN (which both premiered in January 1976, mid-way thru the '75/76 season). So they quickly disappeared.

I never had a problem with Mary Richards' new digs in Season 6 and 7, nor her slightly more brittle demeanor -- it was a manifestation of Mary's "growing up", just as with her shorter hair in Season 3. Her new apartment seemed like a jumping-off spot for her impending life once the series ended.

"Chuckles Bites the Dust"s reputation was built off the fact that in 1975, using death as a basis for laughs in a TV sitcom was considered absolutely stunning -- such that the series' usual director, Jay Sandrich, refused to do it (so Joan Darling, once the frontrunner for Rhoda Morgenstern before CBS' Ethel Wynan located Valerie Harper, did the deed). The installment was ruined in syndication when the careful pacing was destroyed by additional edits... Today, even fully restored, the episode's shock value is long lost.

I tend to agree that five years is the ideal length for most series (certainly for most '70s cop shows) as the mojo is usually stolen by then. But I'm glad MTM ran seven. I thought the show was every bit as good in its last two seasons, even if there was a slight and inevitable tonal change. (And I was always glad that their "meanness" towards Ted was never really softened -- as he still kind of deserved it, frankly).

Despite the Donna Reed debacle, DALLAS would have been right to run through seven years (technically Season 8, per industry counting standards long before the DVDs started coming out in 2004) and then end when Bobby died. Although I would have hated to have missed Season 10 and its ghostly farewell (although it ran four more years and probably shouldn't have).

 

[Crimson]

I remember Penny Marshall and Mary Kay Place were introduced in season 6.. in an attempt to recreate the home life environment that MTM had with Rhoda and Phyllis in season 1 through 5. I think MKP only appeared once while PM appeared twice.

You're probably right. I didn't think much of Sally Jo as a one-off character, but she was likely an attempt to create a new funny-annoying neighbor like Phyllis. Unfortunately, she was annoying-annoying and I'm glad she didn't return. On the other hand, I really liked Paula and she was the strongest candidate as the "new Rhoda" (even if she was probably closer to Brenda than early Rhoda). I'm glad Penny found success with L&S, but would have liked to see more of Paula first.

I just noticed MKP also wrote the episode "Mary's Delinquent", which I always skip. Apparently I disliked all of her contributions to MTM.

 

[Marley Drama]

Brooks & Burns had wanted to end MTM after the 5th season, while they felt the show was still at its peak. They felt they had explored all there was with the characters. Moore, Grant Tinker and the network pushed back, arguing the show was still in its prime. A compromise was reached, agreeing MTM would run another 2 years.

It's good to get this context. Even though it may have run longer than JLB and Burns had wanted, I suppose limiting the extension to two years could help give it a focus as it moved towards the end.

Aside from the new setting, two new characters were introduced who the producers did plan to utilize regularly: Paula (Penny Marshall) and Joe (Ted Bessell).

I remember Penny Marshall and Mary Kay Place were introduced in season 6

Penny Marshall and Mary Kay Place were obviously positioned to become Mary's new irritating neighbors in her new high-rise apartment complex

The one arguable advantage of the tower block apartment over the more intimate setting of the original was the opportunity for neighbour-related material. As the move took place, I found myself wondering if it would open things up to the occasional guest-star playing some random neighbour, or further recurring characters. But this seems not to have been the case.

Of course this could have taken it even further away from the original premise, but it at least could offer some kind of home life for Mary that didn't involve her colleagues knocking the door at all hours.

"Chuckles Bites the Dust"s reputation was built off the fact that in 1975, using death as a basis for laughs in a TV sitcom was considered absolutely stunning -- such that the series' usual director, Jay Sandrich, refused to do it

That makes sense. I'm trying to think if this was also still the case in Britain in 1975, and I think it's probably to a lesser degree. I can think of a few examples of this kind of humour going back to the late Sixties in British sitcoms, but most of the key ones I thought of (Fawlty Towers' The Kipper And The Corpse episode; funeral parlour-based sitcom In Loving Memory) came after this point.

 

[Treeviewer]

The episode also starts some obvious revisionism of Mary's past, establishing that Mary had always wanted to be a journalist and was inspired by her aunt. Of course, there's no indication of this earlier in the series. Mary applied for a job as a secretary in the first episode, and there was no hint that she was specifically interested in TV journalism. When she later started taking journalism classes, it was with a "Oh why not?" kind of attitude. Subsequent episodes continue this revisionism.

I don't see that as a direct contradiction. The fact that she applied as a secretary and had no journalism training does not speak against her having had a childhood ambition that had been thwarted. She did choose a newsroom after all.

I thought Mary's character grew stronger in later years, not as unlikeable as you sggest (respectfully).
I think that as Mary grew older, it was a natural evolution for the character to be a bit more
wordly, for lack of a better word.

Apropos of nothing in particuar, probably my favourite MTM quote is Mary saying rather pompously, "I've been around" before amending it to "Well, I've been nearby." illustrating her ingenuousness.

 

[Crimson]

I don't see that as a direct contradiction. The fact that she applied as a secretary and had no journalism training does not speak against her having had a childhood ambition that had been thwarted. She did choose a newsroom after all.

She also went to college and didn't study journalism, which would be an odd choice for someone whose lifelong ambition was to be a journalist.

I used the term revisionism intentionally, rather than retcon. It's true there's no direct contradiction, because Mary had never previously said "Well I didn't want to be a journalist but here I am". But there's no indication in the earlier seasons that Mary had wanted a career in journalism prior to that first interview; the revisionism is shifting Mary to someone who sought out her career path than than kind of stumbling into it.

Mel hasn't gotten to the overt retcon episode yet, but there's direct contradiction still to come.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

When, in an episode near the end of the series, Lou affectionately tells Mary that she'd once had the gall to come into the office seven years ago and ask for

Spoiler

the job of associate producer

, Mary should have pointed out that in fact she'd

Spoiler

only applied for a position of secretary and he'd given her the job of associate producer because it paid less

. Lou should have then responded "Details, details..." with a shrug as he walked back into his office.

Lou's nostalgia is always manipulative anyway.

 

[Marley Drama]

Mary Tyler Moore
Season Six
One Boyfriend Too Many / What Do You Want To Do When You Produce? / Not With My Wife, I Don’t / The Seminar / Once I Had A Secret Love / Ménage-à-Lou / Murray Takes A Stand / Mary’s Aunt Returns / A Reliable Source / Sue Ann Falls In Love / Ted And The Kid


Here we are at the end of the penultimate season, with 85% of MTM episodes under my belt.

I’m relieved that even with the changes I’m finding the series as enjoyable as ever. A few lines and scenarios from episodes in this latter part of the run have given me some big laughs. Such as the exchange where someone, in reference to a newspaper article, asked Murray if he’d seen “the spread on Sue Ann” and he quipped that it didn’t show as much when she sat down. Or the scene at the awards where Sue Ann was introduced as “the Happy Homemaker” and it cut to a shot of her blubbering over her latest catch making a pass at Mary.

The familiar faces have been enjoyable. Penny Marshall had her finest (half) hour on the series when Paula was roped into being Lou’s companion for a double date with the recast Charlene. I assume this is the last we’ll see of Paula on the series, but she made it memorable. The return of Mary’s aunt was fun. And when the First Lady has a cameo, taking insults over the telephone from the series’ lead, you know you’ve made it after all.

There’s still a sense that some material is being recycled. It can sometimes feel as though Mary threatens to resign every third episode, and perhaps five or six of these episodes have involved someone resigning or being sacked, only for it to be corrected by episode’s end. On the plus side, the falling out between Lou and Mary over Mary’s indiscretion felt very truthful (I felt Lou forgave her far too easily, but I have a very low tolerance threshold when it comes to “well intentioned” gossip, so I’m not sure this was the intent of the writers).

Ted and Georgette adopting a child felt rather like a rehash of Murray going the same route in the last season. I was geared up to hate this one for it all happening in the space of an episode (the process is so fast tracked it’s like they’re using Amazon Prime rather than an adoption agency), but there was at least some attempt to make sense of this with the reasoning of there being a shorter wait for an older child, along with the explanation that another couple dropped out at the last minute. It’s not entirely without holes, but it was enough for me to willingly suspend disbelief.


Before returning to the Maryverse. I have fifteen to twenty episodes of Brookside to catch up on this week. When I resume, it will probably go:
Phylis S1 - Rhoda S3 - Phyllis S2 - Mary S7


There are two alternatives. One for if I’m really enjoying Phyllis:
Phyllis S1 - Phyllis S2 - Rhoda S3 - Mary S7


And one for if she does my box in:
Phyllis S1 (first few episodes only) / Rhoda S3 - Mary S7

 

[Crimson]

There’s still a sense that some material is being recycled.

This is where I think the loss of Rhoda and Phyllis is keenly felt. There are those who think the loss of those two characters wasn't too impactful to MTM because Georgette and Sue Ann were solid characters to fill the void. I only partially agree. One of the great things about S1-4 is that it followed a lesson learned by Mary's previous sitcom: it split the storylines between work and home life. S6 & 7 are almost entirely about Mary's work life; even her home life revolves around her co-workers or the WJM-adjacent Georgette. Attempts at introducing new friends or love interests for Mary sputtered out; presumably, heading to the end, the writers decided it wasn't worth further effort. So all that was left was the workplace interactions of 5 people leading to repetition.

Phylis S1 - Rhoda S3 - Phyllis S2 - Mary S7

If you're going to any degree of impact, I'd suggest watching all except RHODA S5 ahead of MTM S7. That's the closest alignment to air dates, without going episode-by-episode. I believe you'll find some emotional payoff by saving MTM's finale towards the end.

 

[Marley Drama]

There are those who think the loss of those two characters wasn't too impactful to MTM because Georgette and Sue Ann were solid characters to fill the void. I only partially agree. One of the great things about S1-4 is that it followed a lesson learned by Mary's previous sitcom: it split the storylines between work and home life. S6 & 7 are almost entirely about Mary's work life; even her home life revolves around her co-workers or the WJM-adjacent Georgette.

This is spot on. Even on the occasions where Mary has had a storyline that's technically a "home" one - such as dating two guys - the only prism through which it can be filtered is work, so the balance has changed in that regard.

Perhaps because this is my first time out with the series, I'm not finding this too bothersome at the moment, but I can certainly see it's true.

If you're going to any degree of impact, I'd suggest watching all except RHODA S5 ahead of MTM S7. That's the closest alignment to air dates, without going episode-by-episode. I believe you'll find some emotional payoff by saving MTM's finale towards the end.

Thanks. So just to clarify, are you suggesting watching Season Four of Rhoda before MTM S7?

I was going by the years in which the seasons aired, and I knew in the 1975-76 season I wanted to watch MTM last of the three. But I hadn't even considered watching Rhoda S4 because it aired in the1976-77 season (which was the year after MTM had ended).

 

[Crimson]

I'm not finding this too bothersome at the moment

I find it bothersome only in the narrower focus of the final seasons and that the producers didn't try harder to counterbalance the show morphing into a workplace comedy. The producers of MTM were not lacking in self-awareness. Many of the limitations and quibbles one could have about the series are directly addressed in the final season.

So just to clarify, are you suggesting watching Season Four of Rhoda before MTM S7?

Disregard what I said. I could have sworn RHODA only lasted a single season after the end of MTM, but I see it was actually two.

 

[Marley Drama]

Phyllis
Season One
Pilot /Bess, Is You A Woman Now? / Up For Grabs / Leaving Home / The First Day / Phyllis Takes Piano Lessons / Phyllis’s Garage Sale / The First Date


Since I seem to be getting through these quickly - these eight episodes are two evenings’ worth - thought I should jump in with a first impression before I get too used to the series.

As mentioned in previous posts, there was a good degree of reservation about watching this series based not only on comments from others but also my personal view of the character of Phyllis who was never really a MTM favourite.

It’s the most pleasant of surprises to find the series is working for me so far. I like the tone. The premise is working well enough. The supporting players are all fine. If I look hard, I can see what @Crimson was saying about the series faults on these fronts, but going in with low expectations I don’t find them a bar to my enjoyment. Generic it may be, but so far it’s perfectly watchable. Now I’m thinking I must be very easy to please (which sounds rather unlike me).

I was really expecting the change from Barbara Colby to Liz Torres to jar but… nope. I really liked Barbara’s Julie, and I like Liz’s Julie. I’m sure it helped with the transition that the picture quality on some of these episodes is so poor one can barely make out faces (to quote Phyllis herself as she collapsed into hysterical laughter, beggars can’t be choosers).

The biggest surprise of all is that I’m finding Phyllis herself watchable and funny. Yes, it’s typically OTT at times, but I find her diva-dom far less off-putting here than I did in MTM. I can also see the similarities with Maude, so perhaps that’s helping. Just so long as Phyllis isn’t "explained" with a bipolar disorder diagnosis we may be fine.

There’s also a physicality to Cloris's performance that I hadn’t really noticed in MTM. There’s been business with leaping into the air or picking up a desk to look at the writing on it or that scene in the opening titles where she jumps onto the cable car and leans backwards (a moment that always gives me sweaty palms given an injury I sustained from a backwards fall a while ago).

Incidentally, I’ve noticed a motif that’s recurred a couple of times where one or two characters lean in through a doorway to look into a room whilst lifting one leg. I was wondering what that was about, but it’s just occurred to me that it’s similar to Ted’s early trademark entrance on MTM… except we see it from the room they’re leaning away from rather has the room into which they are leaning (in other words, we see tails rather than heads). I wonder if this is deliberate.

The San Francisco setting is nice. Not that we see much of it beyond the opening titles, but still, it sets the scene. It’s a little curious that many of the moments used in the opening credits are lifted from MTM, and were all quite dated by the second episode when Phyllis shifted from longer hair to her shorter Jennifer Hart bouffant (based on this I’m guessing the Pilot was shot quite some time before the rest of the episodes).

Quite a few familiar faces so far. Dallas’s Mitch Cooper. Peyton Place’s Elliot Carson (naturally… it feels as though Tim O’Connor has guested in almost every American series I’ve ever watched). Loni Anderson. And one Mary Tyler Moore (seeing Mary Richards was a treat as I had no idea Phyllis featured any such crossovers at all. It also tied in nicely with a S6 MTM episode in which I remember Mary mentioning she’d received a letter from Phyllis). Oh, and I noticed James Burrows appeared as the telephone engineer.

 

[Jolly Jimmy Tinsel Todd]

I've seen a few episodes of Phyllis, and I did enjoy them. Mother Dexter was quite humorous. Sort of a forerunnee of Sophia Petrillo.

 

[Treeviewer]

The premise is working well enough.

I remember how it struck me at the time how sad it seemed that Lars had died even though we had never actually seen him.

 

[Marley Drama]

Mother Dexter was quite humorous. Sort of a forerunnee of Sophia Petrillo.

That crossed my mind when I saw her as well. And like Sophia I suspect less will be more, so I'm hoping we don't see too much of her.

I recognise Judith Lowry from her Maude episodes. She's one of those memorable character actresses who is once seen, never forgotten. I am also aware that she died while the series was still in production.

I remember how it struck me at the time how sad it seemed that Lars had died even though we had never actually seen him.

Something that's struck me as the episodes have gone on is how unaffected Bess seems by the death of her father. There's been a lot of focus on the impact Lars's death has had on Phyllis, but much less so on his own daughter and mother.

I know that Bess is consistently shown to be resilient and adaptable, but still... being too cool in this kind of situation would be a bit of a red flag. And now she's been hastily packed off to college, so I suspect we won't be seeing Bess very much from now on.

 

[Soaplover]

Bess had to be the grown up since Phyllis was anything, but that.

 

[Avery Merry Christmas]

MTM's Betty White will have a USPS postage stamp printed in her honor next year.

A Betty White USPS Stamp Is Coming Out in 2025 — See the Stamp Design!

 

[Marley Drama]

Phyllis
Season One
All Together Now /Audrey Leaves Jonathan / Phyllis Opens Julie’s Heart / So Lonely I Could Cry / Phyllis And The Little People / There’s No Business Like No Business / Paging Dr. Lindstrom / The $17,623,419.53 Man / Honour Thy Mother Dexter / Phyllis In Love / Crazy Mama / A Man, A Woman and Another Woman / Leo’s Suicide / Sonny Boy / Widows, Merry And Otherwise / The Triangle


To give an idea of my current enjoyment levels: I’ve reached the end of Season One, and I’m finding the idea of switching back to Rhoda a bit of a wrench. In fact, my main motivations for returning to Rhoda are (a) so things are a little more evenly balanced and (b) so I can enjoy Phyllis for longer.

Given my low tolerance threshold for Phyllis in MTM, my enjoyment of this series is quite flabbergasting. As I’ve watched, I’ve tried to work out what it is that makes the character not just tolerable but enjoyable to watch here, and funny with it. And I’m still not sure whether it’s the writing, the changed premise/ensemble or Cloris Leachman playing the character differently (though the latter feels the least likely to me).

Something that’s occurred to me as I’ve continued watching is that Phyllis has the home/work life balance of earlier MTM seasons. No, the photography studio doesn’t have the same potential as the newsroom, nor does it have the same wealth of colourful characters, but it does go some way towards giving the series some kind of focus.

As for the stories themselves… by today’s standards they’re quite predictable (most punchlines can be seen coming) and sometimes even workaday, but that just adds to the comforting cosiness of the series for me.

Considering the earlier discussion about death as a topic in Chuckles’ funeral on MTM, I wonder how Leo’s suicide attempt was received by audiences (both characters, ironically, being portrayed by the same actor). While I give the writers credit for getting a few small laughs, it mostly felt like a misfire for me, and I certainly found it less funny than other episodes. My discomfort came not from the story challenging my thinking towards a subject, but because it ultimately ended up trivialising its own theme. Over on MTM, the death of Chuckles remained a fact, while Leo’s poor mental health came from nowhere, wasn’t addressed and was forgotten as quickly as it came. Even though it wasn’t an overt attempt to “explain” the character, there are echoes of Maude’s bipolar diagnosis: it just doesn’t sit well to laugh at a character whose erratic behaviour possibly stems from a serious health condition.

And while I’m discussing that episode, the title is annoyingly misleading. Since Leo didn’t die there was no suicide. it would be like saying someone who survives a gunshot has been murdered.

The Little People episode was a more successful example of addressing a potentially thorny subject, firstly because it followed through by actually addressing the subject, but also because it had some genuinely funny moments. And now I see that Blanche Devereaux wasn’t the first person to offer her guest “shrimp”, only to instantly realise her faux pas. This was an example of Phyllis’s neurotic reactions being genuinely funny, such as after Bess took Phyllis aside to explain that they were no longer called midgets but little people. Cloris’s inflections during the choked-but-forceful response “And justifiably” made me laugh heartily (and it didn’t stop there, since the next line was about Bess one day being married and hearing “the pitter patter of little feet. I never realised… they would be your mother and father in law.”

It’s pleasing to see that Phyllis dealing with widowhood has been more than just a quickly-forgotten excuse to set up the premise. There has been a recurring underlying theme of Phyllis dating-but-not-being-ready or dating-and-feeling-guilty or seeing-another-new-widow-dating-and-finding-it-inappropriate. Yes, she has had men interested in her - or vice versa - and dated a little, but none of it feels malapropos.

Bess, on the other hand, still seems completely unfazed by her father’s death and has a different boyfriend in tow each time we see her. But then you’re only young once, I suppose.