Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

[Crimson]

Her appearance in the opening episode suggested she was practically a regular. I've wondered if she was originally intended to appear much more than she did but it was pared down because of Lisa Gerritsen's young age.

That's possible. Even mature, professional child actors come with complications that hinder production. Mostly though, I think she was just tied to Cloris; as Leachman appeared less often, so did Gerritsen. Of course, the writers could have done some stories with Mary & Bess -- I rather liked Mary in the "aunt"/"big sister" role -- but they didn't seem to think of it.

Gerritsen only appeared in 24 out of 48 episodes of PHYLLIS, so that show isn't as focused on the mother-daughter dynamic as I'd hope.

 

[PsychoDrama]

Mostly though, I think she was just tied to Cloris; as Leachman appeared less often, so did Gerritsen.

Yes, I'm sure this didn't help. Even so, Phyllis was in three-and-a-half times more episodes than Bess, so there's still quite a wide margin between even those two.

I'd have loved more Mary/Bess episodes as you suggested. Their relationship was really sweet.

Gerritsen only appeared in 24 out of 48 episodes of PHYLLIS, so that show isn't as focused on the mother-daughter dynamic as I'd hope.

Interesting. Not being familiar with many of the Phyllis cast I have very little idea of what the energy in that series will be like. And I like that it's unknown.

 

[PsychoDrama]

Rhoda
Season One
Good-Bye Charlie / Guess What I Got You For The Holidays / Whattya Think It’s There For? / Not Made For Each Other / Strained Interlude / Everything I Have Is Yours… Almost / Chest Pains / Windows By Rhoda / A Nice Warm Rut / Ida The Elf / Along Comes Mary



The latter part of Season One has been as good as I could have hoped considering the new circumstances. Married life - so far at least - hasn’t dulled the character Rhoda as much as I feared it might.

As previously mentioned, it helps that her relationship with Joe isn’t idyllic. There’s still some fire there, and some friction too. Rhoda’s taken a dislike to Joe’s best friend, been concerned over his emotional wellbeing when she finds out he’s seeing a psychiatrist, faced the prospect of Joe’s business going under and had many a domestic disagreement. At the same time she’s begun carving out a life and career for herself, just as she would have done had Joe not been in the picture. But it helps, too, that Joe himself is very watchable.

The roles of characters like Ida and especially Brenda haven’t been as diminished as they could have been, which is another good thing. I do miss Brenda and Rhoda living together, but since they’re still in the same building and visiting one another’s apartment all day long the dynamic is still more or less intact.

Appropriately for its lead character, the series rarely feels too cosy or safe. Even Mary’s surprise visit in the final episode of the year brought friction as she interrupted a planned weekend getaway

Not much to say about the episodes themselves, other than they’re all working for me and I’m looking forward to beginning Season Two in due course.

 

[Crimson]

Not much to say about the episodes themselves, other than they’re all working for me and I’m looking forward to beginning Season Two in due course.

Other than a few episodes, I haven't seen RHODA in (I'll conservatively estimate) 20 years so I have few specific memories of episodes. I don't even recall the Mary episode well, although I may rewatch it in the midst of my MTM viewing.

Since the shows have branched, you seem more invested in Rhoda & RHODA than in Mary & MTM. Going into the show with relatively low expectations and no preconceived notions, it's good that you've been able to enjoy it. I was reading the RHODA article in The Great TV Sitcom Book and it really enforces the bias that RHODA never found its footing. A contemporaneous quote from one of the show's lead writers:

"We all suddenly realized we were getting bored with our own show. Maybe the audience wasn't bored -- yet -- but we figured some time in the future it was inevitable they way we were going. Everything was so nice for Rhoda in her happily married life. She had no vulnerability; she wasn't the underdog anymore. When in doubt, we'd go to Brenda for a script idea."

The book also really leans into the notion that early Rhoda (and Valerie) had been "fat" and "schlubby". Standards sure have changed in the past 50 years, because even pre-dieting Rhoda never looked even remotely overweight.

 

[PsychoDrama]

Since the shows have branched, you seem more invested in Rhoda & RHODA than in Mary & MTM. Going into the show with relatively low expectations and no preconceived notions, it's good that you've been able to enjoy it.

Yes, I'd say this is all very true. It's difficult to pinpoint why, but something about Rhoda is appealing to me more at this point.

I've continued to enjoy MTM when watching it but, for whatever reason, after each break it's difficult to muster up much enthusiasm about returning to it. I wrapped up Rhoda's first season relatively quickly but still have fifteen or sixteen episodes left of the same season's MTM episodes which - ahead of time - feels like a bit of a chore.

I was reading the RHODA article in The Great TV Sitcom Book and it really enforces the bias that RHODA never found its footing. A contemporaneous quote from one of the show's lead writers

Thanks for this. What's a little bizarre is that, despite the lack of interest in the spinoff, things got still more diluted with the Phyllis spinoff.

The book also really leans into the notion that early Rhoda (and Valerie) had been "fat" and "schlubby". Standards sure have changed in the past 50 years, because even pre-dieting Rhoda never looked even remotely overweight.

Absolutely. And yet it's always seemed to me that more voluptuous figures were desirable at the time.

 

[Crimson]

. I wrapped up Rhoda's first season relatively quickly but still have fifteen or sixteen episodes left of the same season's MTM episodes which - ahead of time - feels like a bit of a chore.

Do you often binge two shows alternately? Seems a bit like reading a few chapters of a novel then switching to another novel and then back again. When I binge, I really settle into the vibe of the show. I wonder if your reaction would have been different if you had finished MTM before moving onto RHODA or watched them alternately by episode as they aired.

In any case, I hope you continue to enjoy MTM. Even though I think the show lost some of its spark after Rhoda left, I enjoy it to the end.

With your RHODA detour, I think I passed you in my MTM viewing. There is, in fact, an episode that pairs Mary with Bess (minus Phyllis) that i had forgotten about. Pretty sure it's the only one but its good to see the writers remembered the relationship.

despite the lack of interest in the spinoff, things got still more diluted with the Phyllis spinoff

If the producers had been reluctant to spin off Rhoda, they were downright resistant to a Phyllis centric show. They recognized the difficulty of building a show around a character whose defining trait was being a pain in the ass. Worse, Cloris herself was rather a pain in the ass. A Method actress, she could hold up production for considerable time while fretting over her performance. And just because she rehearsed a scene a certain way was no guarantee that's what she would do during filming. The MTM producers tolerated it because she only appeared sporadically; the payoff was worth the pain. But the saw the difficulty of building a weekly production schedule around Cloris' technique.

But there wasn't much choice. By the mid 70s, Cloris was at a career high. She had won a few Emmys and an Oscar, and great success in YOUNG FRANKENSTEIN. If the producers didn't give her a show, another company would have.

 

[PsychoDrama]

Do you often binge two shows alternately?

Not in this way, no. The norm for me is to devote myself pretty much entirely to one show (beyond the one series that's incorporated into my viewing schedule longer-term).

After I tested the water with the spinoff between seasons, I decided to continue but knew I wanted to watch the crossover episodes for the wedding close to one another, which required watching the beginning of the MTM season then switching to Rhoda. I'm not sure how I'll do it after S5 of MTM - especially with Phyllis potentially coming into the mix, but I'll probably still alternate to a lesser degree.

I'm sure you're right to suspect that it would have been a different reaction from me had I watched all of MTM before Rhoda.

In any case, I hope you continue to enjoy MTM. Even though I think the show lost some of its spark after Rhoda left, I enjoy it to the end.

Thanks. I have a feeling I will find something to enjoy all the way along, even as I simultaneously feel the series may not satisfy quite as much as it did in the first three or four years.

With your RHODA detour, I think I passed you in my MTM viewing.

Oh... that's exciting.

There is, in fact, an episode that pairs Mary with Bess (minus Phyllis) that i had forgotten about. Pretty sure it's the only one but its good to see the writers remembered the relationship.

That's great. And perfect timing considering the discussion of the last few days.

They recognized the difficulty of building a show around a character whose defining trait was being a pain in the ass.

When you said that, I thought of Maude.

Worse, Cloris herself was rather a pain in the ass. A Method actress, she could hold up production for considerable time while fretting over her performance. And just because she rehearsed a scene a certain way was no guarantee that's what she would do during filming. The MTM producers tolerated it because she only appeared sporadically; the payoff was worth the pain. But the saw the difficulty of building a weekly production schedule around Cloris' technique.

I was curious about the traits of some of the actors and the dynamics behind the camera so it's good to get this background. Now I find myself wondering if the series was as difficult to put together as the producers feared ahead of time.

 

[Crimson]

I'm sure you're right to suspect that it would have been a different reaction from me had I watched all of MTM before Rhoda.

My completely unsolicited advice: finish RHODA and then go back to MTM. You're clearly enjoying RHODA and possibly making yourself resentful every time you interrupt it for MTM. There's no continuity between the shows at this point to make switching back and forth desirable. You may even find the famous MTM finale more emotionally gratifying if you save it for the very end (possibly even after PHYLLIS).

When you said that, I thought of Maude.

I feel like there will be structural similarities between MAUDE and PHYLLIS -- both centered on overly dramatic, domineering and not always likeable main characters.

I was curious about the traits of some of the actors and the dynamics behind the camera so it's good to get this background

Georgia Engel said the actors of MTM were very similar to the characters they portrayed. The writers took the actors basic personalities and exaggerated them for comedic effect. She included herself in this assessment but said Betty White was the sole exception.

Now I find myself wondering if the series was as difficult to put together as the producers feared ahead of time.

From what I read, Cloris was indeed exacting on the set; probably moreso because she was the star. She was apparently big on reworking scenes to center them more on herself. How very Phyllis.

But she was also said to be very warm to the cast, which suffered several tragedies in the short two season run.

 

[PsychoDrama]

My completely unsolicited advice: finish RHODA and then go back to MTM. You're clearly enjoying RHODA and possibly making yourself resentful every time you interrupt it for MTM. There's no continuity between the shows at this point to make switching back and forth desirable. You may even find the famous MTM finale more emotionally gratifying if you save it for the very end (possibly even after PHYLLIS).

Thanks. This is something I hadn't considered so I'll give it some thought. I'm pretty sure I'm going to finish MTM's fifth season next as I the neat and tidy part of my brain wouldn't feel right about leaving mid-season for a lengthy period. Even though I'm enjoying Rhoda more, I have still found enjoyment in MTM when I've got round to watching, so I may end up still alternating. My current thinking is I'll see how I enjoy the rest of the S5 episodes and that will help me decide how to play it from there.

I feel like there will be structural similarities between MAUDE and PHYLLIS -- both centered on overly dramatic, domineering and not always likeable main characters.

I can completely see that. Since I did (mostly) enjoy Maude this gives me a sliver of hope for Phyllis.

She was apparently big on reworking scenes to center them more on herself. How very Phyllis.

Isn't it just.

But she was also said to be very warm to the cast, which suffered several tragedies in the short two season run.

I had read there were at least three deaths across the main or recurring cast during this time (albeit two of those were very elderly).

 

[PsychoDrama]

Mary Tyler Moore
Season Five
Not A Christmas Story / What Are Friends For? / A Boy’s Best Friend / A Son For Murray / Neighbours* / A Girl Like Mary / An Affair To Forget / Mary Richards: Producer / The System / Phyllis Whips Inflation / The Shame Of The Cities / Marriage Minneapolis Style / You Try To Be A Nice Guy / You Can’t Lose ‘Em All / Ted Baxter’s Famous Broadcasters’ School / Anyone Who Hates Kids And Dogs


Rhoda
Season Two
Kiss Your Épaulettes* Goodbye / Rhoda Meets The Ex-Wife / Ida’s Doctor / Mucho, Macho / The Party / Brenda’s Unemployment / With Friends Like These…



In good news, taking a month-long break from MTM has increased my enjoyment of that series. I still feel it’s past its best at this point, and there’s not a whole lot of new ground. Crucially, though, the series can still be relied on to entertain, which is its primary function.

Mary’s home life is working as well as I could hope at this point where there’s no Rhoda and barely any Phyllis (who has now made her last appearance anyway). Mary’s flat becoming an extension of the office, with various colleagues and their families dropping in at all hours at least leans into the familiar rather than trying to force to much change.

This change has particularly made me realise how well Mary Sue is stepping into Phyllis’s shoes. Coming in and criticising Mary’s decor or housekeeping skills was previously Phyllis’s forte so Mary Sue doing this feels very comfortable and familiar. It helps that Betty White excels at comic passive-aggression, so these are some of the moments I’ve enjoyed most.

It was a bit of a surprise to come back to the series with fresh eyes and suddenly realise I don’t find Murray very likeable. At this point, his main function seems to be making bitchy put-downs about/towards Ted. Earlier on I felt there was more balance: Murray frequently found Ted frustrating but there was also a kind of fondness there. Now it just feels like constant snarking and one-upmanship at Ted’s expense, and it’s not a good look.

Not helping this situation, the most significant Murray episode during this run was one that started promisingly but ultimately rang hollow. Murray’s feeling of inadequacy over not having produced a son was the basis for a good story, particularly when he hadn’t even broached the subject with Marie. As the story went on, though, the less-rational aspects of his feelings were at best skirted round, and at worst indulged by all involved. It didn’t sit well with me at all that the “solution” was Murray and Marie effortlessly adopting a random mail order son. Not only did this trivialise the lengthy, challenging and emotionally difficult process of adopting, it was also hugely dismissive of the daughters the couple already had. Everything was fixed once Murray had a son upon whom he could lavish his attention. And who, by the way, I don’t believe was mentioned again in the dozen episodes that followed. I found the whole thing quite shallow and ugly.

It was good to see Barbara Colby back for her second and final appearance, before her all-too-brief Phyllis role.

It’s nice that Rhoda is still getting the occasional mention: usually Mary missing having her around. This is making up for the lack of reference in the immediate wake of her departure. Also, Mary’s one-sided phone call with the off-screen Ida was great. I was impressed how just Mary’s side of the conversation could capture the spirit of Ida.

Back in Rhoda’s own series, things are ticking over quite nicely. Already, coming back to the series feels like reconnecting with friends. And Season Two certainly led with strength, with the first two episodes guest-starring, respectively, Ruth Gordon and Joan Van Ark.

Ruth is best-known to me for two dark characters: Minnie Castevet in Rosemary’s Baby, and a classic Columbo killer in the episode Try And Catch Me. In both cases she played an ostensibly scatty and harmless eccentric who had so much more going on beneath the surface, and that probably also applies to her performance as Carlton The Doorman’s mother, who was happy to exploit Rhoda’s guilt to get her son’s job back. Incidentally, I’ve been visualising Carlton as black, so this shook my head-canon a little.

It’s a nice (if clearly unintentional) touch that the two exes of Joe’s we’ve met have been played by future night-time soap heroines. And fun to see both Joan and Pamela Bellwood playing confident, vampish types when they would become best-known for playing vulnerable heroines who would be walked over by their respective series’ confident vamps.






* With these words being part of the title, the purist in me is torn between spelling them as written in the series’ native country or as I would usually spell it. I've gone with the latter but there are purist arguments for either.

 

[Daniel Avery]

What in the name of St. Olaf....?

This change has particularly made me realise how well Mary Sue is stepping into Phyllis’s shoes. Coming in and criticising Mary’s decor or housekeeping skills was previously Phyllis’s forte so Mary Sue doing this feels very comfortable and familiar. It helps that Betty White excels at comic passive-aggression, so these are some of the moments I’ve enjoyed most.

I know you mean Sue Ann, and in most cases I'd let such a thing slide. But in this case....um, no, I can't. She's a legend!

 

[PsychoDrama]

What in the name of St. Olaf....?
I know you mean Sue Ann, and in most cases I'd let such a thing slide. But in this case....um, no, I can't. She's a legend!

Oh yipes. What a faux pas.

And that look is turning me to stone, so to quote Sue Ann herself:

I want to be cremated and have my ashes thrown on Robert Redford.

 

[Crimson]

In good news, taking a month-long break from MTM has increased my enjoyment of that series. I still feel it’s past its best at this point, and there’s not a whole lot of new ground. Crucially, though, the series can still be relied on to entertain, which is its primary function.

I'm glad you found yourself back to enjoying the series. I don't think the show was ever the same after the loss of Phyllis and Rhoda, but I think it remains enjoyable throughout with some great moments along the way. "Ted Baxter’s Famous Broadcasters’ School" is a strong contender for my favorite episode of the series.

I do, however, start to develop more mixed feelings in the last two seasons; there are even a few episodes I skip during my re-watches.

It was a bit of a surprise to come back to the series with fresh eyes and suddenly realise I don’t find Murray very likeable. At this point, his main function seems to be making bitchy put-downs about/towards Ted. Earlier on I felt there was more balance: Murray frequently found Ted frustrating but there was also a kind of fondness there.

I don't think the writers ever quite figured out what to do with Murray. (The character was originally conceived as Mary's office nemesis, but Gavin MacLeod was too likeable in his audition so the character was changed.) Murray had two functions: to build up Mary and to undercut Ted's pomposities. As Mary became more assertive, Murry was needed less often in the former role which left only zinging Ted and later Sue Ann.

The mid-70s was also the start of the Comedy of Cruelty era of American sitcoms, with humor mostly centered around characters insulting other characters. I wasn't a fan. MTM wasn't as excessive as other shows of the era, but is also a guide of both how and how not to do it. Murray's zingers aimed at Sue Ann were funny, because she was a malicious character who deserved to be zinged. Also, she could give as good as she got. Ted might have been pompous and dim-witted, but he was rarely mean-spirited. The way Murray, and especially Lou, treated Ted was sometimes too much.

There are further developments -- good and bad -- in the next two seasons, which I will hold off on commenting about.

 

[Jimmy Jack O'Lantern Hot Toddy]

That's an interesting comment about the "Comedy of Cruelty." Are there other examples from the 1970s?

 

[Daniel Avery]

I'd always referred to that style as "insult humor" or "putdown comedy". Shows like The Jeffersons seemed to excel at it and create their "niche" by having characters constantly insult one another. George would insult the neighbors, the doorman and his housekeeper, while everyone would insult him back (even Louise, occasionally). Benson, another sitcom spin-off trying to develop its own identity, featured the lead character making cracks about the various characters he was surrounded by, but their equally-insulting replies weren't as strong since Benson was the main character/star.

Others that immediately pop to mind that seemed reliant on insult comedy include Sanford and Son; Married with Children (though that's more 1980s, it came from the same producers of The Jeffersons); Alice; and Good Times.

 

[Crimson]

SANFORD & SON is the most obvious and egregious. I think like 90% of that show's humor was Fred insulting people. And just like on MTM, I think sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. Fred and Esther exchanging insults was funny because they were equals, but all too often it was just Redd Foxx brutalizing some poor actor over their physical appearance. I recall sweet Nancy Kulp having to just stand there and smile as she was repeatedly called "ugly".

 

[Crimson]

RIP John Amos, one of the last recurring actors from MTM.

 

[PsychoDrama]

I do, however, start to develop more mixed feelings in the last two seasons; there are even a few episodes I skip during my re-watches.

Thanks for the warning. I'll brace myself for a possible further dip when I begin the next season.

Murray had two functions: to build up Mary and to undercut Ted's pomposities. As Mary became more assertive, Murry was needed less often in the former role

This goes some way to explaining why it's become more noticeable at this point. The Mary/Murray relationship has switched if anything, with Mary sometimes supporting Murray through some crisis or self-doubt, so the fact that he gets unconditional support while everyone seems barely able to tolerate Ted (who, as you said, was not a mean-spirited character) seems to somehow reinforce Murray's treatment of Ted.

The mid-70s was also the start of the Comedy of Cruelty era of American sitcoms, with humor mostly centered around characters insulting other characters.

As you know, I regularly dip into a lot of TV from the era. Mostly British sitcoms, but there is certainly that element there and as a result I probably have a reasonable threshold for it in general.

SANFORD & SON is the most obvious and egregious. I think like 90% of that show's humor was Fred insulting people.

I wonder if British comedy was responsible for the Comedy Of Cruelty wave. American adaptions of British sitcoms seemed to be a big thing around this time.

RIP John Amos, one of the last recurring actors from MTM.

This would not have registered with me at all had I not watched John in both Maude and MTM in recent months. Both great characters, and very different from each other.

And I need to watch Roots one of these days (it's only been on my bucket list for something like four decades).

 

[Crimson]

I'll brace myself for a possible further dip when I begin the next season.

For what it's worth, I don't regard it has a dip in quality. One of the episodes I skip is what's regarded as the series' best episode and often considered one of the best American sitcom episodes of all time. I just don't care for it; or, perhaps, just find it overrated.

By season six, we'll come full circle in the discussion. I think what intrigued you to watch MTM was comments about this being a rare American sitcom to evolve. By the last two seasons, those changes are in place. Characters, relationships and situations aren't the same as they were in the beginning. These changes are organic and logical, but they also changed so much of what I loved about the early seasons. Change is a double edged sword!

so the fact that he gets unconditional support while everyone seems barely able to tolerate Ted (who, as you said, was not a mean-spirited character) seems to somehow reinforce Murray's treatment of Ted.

I just passed a season six episode with a detail I had not really noticed previously. Ted likes Murray's teasing; a nice touch by the writers to keep that relationship pleasant.

I wonder if British comedy was responsible for the Comedy Of Cruelty wave. American adaptions of British sitcoms seemed to be a big thing around this time.

I'm not well versed in British sitcoms, but in broad strokes that seems to be the case. "Realism", insults, and sauciness all seemed to make their way into American TV by way of British inspiration.

This would not have registered with me

Other than Ted Knight, who passed away in the 80s, the MTM cast was remarkably long lived. It's only in the last 10 years or so that the rest have passed on. At this point, only Joyce Bulifant (Marie) and Lisa Gerritsen (Bess) are still with us.

 

[AndyB2008]

RIP John Amos, one of the last recurring actors from MTM.


View attachment 54494

He also had a small role on Die Hard 2 as Major Grant, the head of the US Special Forces unit who in a later twist is revealed to be in league with William Sadler's character.