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440 if you count in Lou Grant, but that wasn't a sitcom I guess.
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If you can't find it elsewhere, the entire documentary is on Youtube split into two parts.
What's another 13 episodes, at this point ...
It adds context to the original plan for Rue to play Rose and Betty to play Blanche; even more so if you've ever seen Betty on MAMA'S FAMILY, where she played a bitch with a heavy Southern accent.
I think she lost even more weight after RHODA. There was concern about her "near anorexic" appearance in some of her post-RHODA roles.
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In my head, I've heard a three-level harmonizing, as performed by Sonny Curtis, for the Season 7 opening theme, for 49 years. I even recorded one -- I've still got the cassette somewhere in my house. It sounds great. Concluding with "Looks like you've made it after all!"
In fact, I can't not hear it whenever this instrumentation begins:
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Oh yes. I forgot that Lou would need to be added onto the end to give the true total.
And Lou Grant would really add a significant amount in terms of broadcast hours for the entire franchise, since the episodes are twice as long as all the other series.
Oh, this is weird. I've actually sought it out there a couple of times (including again after reading this) and can't find it.
I know. It's a drop in the ocean, all things considered. Perhaps I'll give it a spin.
While I've heard the name, I'm not familiar with Mama's Family. And I had no idea both Betty and Rue appeared. Rue's character is described as an "uncomfortable, uptight spinster", so I suppose that contrast between them made the original plan for The Golden Girls' casting even more logical.
It seems Valerie's relationship with her weight has been fairly well-documented. As we've mentioned previously, there was no real sign of her ever being overweight as far as MTM and Rhoda goes, despite the script sometimes suggesting otherwise. She had great bone structure, and I think was stunning in earlier seasons. It's a shame she didn't seem to believe that.
Losing 15 or 20 kg in the space of a few months is never going to be good for the body, but it's especially punishing when one isn't overweight to begin with.
Oh yes - that lyric change would have brought the series full circle perfectly. They knew this was the last outing, so they should have done it.
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When they first produced Mama's Family for NBC, Betty White was an infrequent, recurring player whose character (Mama's snooty daughter Ellen) was mostly brought in for continuity. She'd played Ellen in several of the original Carol Burnett sketches. In contrast, Rue McClanahan's character (Mama's spinster sister Fran) was a principal character, but a new creation for the spin-off. Other than "Mama" (Vicki Lawrence, also from the original Carol Burnett Show) all of the principal characters were new creations, so having Betty drop in regularly (and Carol B's Eunice showing up occasionally) helped bridge the two series. But when the show got retooled for syndication Betty and Rue were no longer available. Ellen just quit dropping by, but they had to kill off Fran since she'd been a principal character.
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Oh. I hadn't realised the concept had been part of Carol's show. That seems a good way to try some things and see what sticks.
It reminds me a little of how Edina and Saffy from AbFab were based on a sketch in the French & Saunders show (except, unlike Mama's Family, the final product was shaken up quite a bit to become a sitcom).
Yes, I noticed there were quite a few cast changes after the second season. And there was also a significant gap between Seasons Two and Three. Did the shift affect the tone or quality of the series?
I'm only marginally au fait with the syndication business. I understand the magic number is around a hundred, but thought this meant there were enough episodes for a re-run. Does "first run syndication" mean that a series is transmitted in a certain way once that suitable number of episodes has been ordered, and before they've all aired for the first time?
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You are correct. There's a playlist on Youtube called "Being Mary Tyler Moore (2023) FULL MOVIE" which I assumed was, ya know, the full movie. Turns out it's unrelated documentaries with some flagrant false advertising.
Enormously. I suspect Daniel will have a very different opinion from mine, but the FAMILY comedies are of declining interest for me. I love the sketches, have moderate fondness for the first two seasons of the sitcom, and nearly zero interest in the rest.
The sketches are among the most scathingly bitter comedy ever put on American TV, surprising since Carol's show was mostly noted by a genial nuttiness.
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Oh, there was a lot of changes made to the characters in order to make Mama's Family a thing. In the CB sketches, these characters (Eunice, her husband Ed and her "mama") were thoroughly unlikeable and spent most of their time going out of their way to make each other miserable. The sketches were funny, but not in a pleasant, sitcom-y way. We got amusement from them insulting each other and tearing one another down; there was little to no "heart" behind the interactions. So in order to make a more traditional sitcom using those highly flawed characters....well, there had to be some major "smoothing over," mostly to the new lead/title character, who had been a supporting player in the sketches (Burnett's Eunice had been the main character on her show, obviously). So "mama" got a name (Thelma Harper) and her rough edges were smoothed over as the series progressed as @Crimson mentions. I felt this was a conceit to the idea that producers likely felt that a lead in a sitcom had to be likeable. As we saw in the AbFab example, this is not necessarily the case.
NBC produced two seasons of MF, then cancelled it. They re-ran the show at some point afterward and the reruns scored decent ratings, encouraging a syndicator to revive the cancelled series a few years later. Joe Hamilton, the producer behind it had been Carol's producer on the variety show and had been married to her. When they divorced he got "custody" of the intellectual property* of the series, so he resumed producer duties even if CB/Eunice was no longer going to guest-star for obvious reasons. It was likely this break between the Hamiltons that encouraged the further shift of the series away from that snippy, hateful tone of the original and toward typical slapstick comedy. The syndicated years were highly rated and financially successful from what I read, encouraging syndicators to revive other cancelled series to sell to TV stations directly rather than offering via networks. They only ended the show because contracts were up and some of the cast and crew wanted to move on, not because it fell in ratings.
* @Crimson will likely get a chuckle out of MF and the word "intellectual" being used in the same sentence. You're welcome.
NBC produced two seasons of MF, then cancelled it. They re-ran the show at some point afterward and the reruns scored decent ratings, encouraging a syndicator to revive the cancelled series a few years later. Joe Hamilton, the producer behind it had been Carol's producer on the variety show and had been married to her. When they divorced he got "custody" of the intellectual property* of the series, so he resumed producer duties even if CB/Eunice was no longer going to guest-star for obvious reasons. It was likely this break between the Hamiltons that encouraged the further shift of the series away from that snippy, hateful tone of the original and toward typical slapstick comedy. The syndicated years were highly rated and financially successful from what I read, encouraging syndicators to revive other cancelled series to sell to TV stations directly rather than offering via networks. They only ended the show because contracts were up and some of the cast and crew wanted to move on, not because it fell in ratings.
* @Crimson will likely get a chuckle out of MF and the word "intellectual" being used in the same sentence. You're welcome.
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It would be a long time before American sitcoms were ready for "unlikable" characters. Dabney Coleman flopped a few times in the 80s trying to make that happen. Sketch comedy can play at a different pitch than a sitcom, which can pull off being broad but still needs some degree of relatability. The FAMILY sketches worked because they were relatively short and infrequent. 30 minutes of Eunice, Ed and Mama screaming at each other for 22 weeks would have been a headache. Even ABFAB rather turned into three harpies shrieking at each other
I think the first two seasons of the sitcom struck a good balance between the sketches and the needs of the sitcom format. The later seasons are sweet and goofy, which is fine, but as far removed from the original concept as the garish color HONEYMOONERS of the 60s were from that original premise.
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That one got me, too.
That bitterness comes across in the video you posted. I suppose deep-rooted sibling resentment and disappointment over being unappreciated in the family is always especially good for this.
That too came across strongly from the sketch above. As one of a series of sketches it would be fine, but because it felt loud and broad I'd find it exhausting to watch this in a half hour sitcom week after week. I can imagine a little toning down would have been a good thing for the series.
Yes, this seems to be something that, certainly at this time, distinguished American and British sitcoms.
Just this week, I've watched videos of a young Millennial American reacting to Fawlty Towers and Keeping Up Appearances. In both cases he commented surprise that the lead characters were so unlikeable (I think he spent half the Fawlty Towers episode waiting for the lead character to arrive, before realising he was already watching him).
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There was one early episode of MF that focused on Mama's birthday that sticks out in my mind because they made an effort to show Eunice and her mother could (eventually) come to a truce. This was something they NEVER would have done in the Carol Burnett Show sketches. There was the usual arguing and resulting trouble (Mama and Eunice ended up in a holding cell) but after they got bailed out, Thelma and Eunice had a real (that is, no shouting) conversation and apologized to one another like...well, like adults. Some would say they'd turned a page, but many would likely say it's the worst thing that those two could have done because those two should have always been at one another's throats. I often wonder how CB felt about playing that scene.
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I don't recall the episode, but it begs the question: and then what? Were Eunice and Mama back to squabbling in their next appearance together, in which case what was the point? And if not, didn't it fundamentally change what made their relationship funny in the first place?
All of which ties into one of the recurring themes discussed with MTM: the inherent risk of a sitcom's characters and relationships evolving and eventually no longer being the very show audiences liked in the first place. Not that I think the changes on MTM were drastic enough to wreck the show, but it's the age old dilemma of long running shows: stay the same and get stale or change and risk losing the magic that made the show work.
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Rhoda
Season Four
One Is A Number / Ida Works Out / Rhoda Likes Mike / The Weekend / Home Movies / Johnny’s Solo Flight / Blind Date / Ida Alone
I’ve just noticed that an episode named Who’s Shy? is missing from the playlist, so I’ll have to catch this one tonight. They synopsis says that Brenda sees a therapist to cure her shyness, but I’m not seeing much sign of it this year. In fact, I’d say current Rhoda ties in with Crimson's observation:
As you can tell, I’m watching the episodes at quite a rate. Unfortunately, my mentality around it is less “I can’t stop watching” and more “let’s get this over with”. I fear if I drag this season out I’ll lose the will to live, or at the very least the will to continue.
Some episodes and scenes are watchable enough, while far too many are a bit tedious.
Valerie Harper’s weight loss continues to be more distracting than it should be, more so because the wardrobe seems chosen to draw attention to the new look, and it feels a little that this is at the expense of story. When she’s in a fuller dress and has her hair styled well it looks OK. But when she’s in a shoulder-less gown, or a tank top, and has her hair scraped back from her head, she just looks angular and long and drawn. A couple of episodes have commented upon the weight loss, which is natural, but I thought the episode with the short, bald date was in bad taste. His commenting upon her being too skinny was framed as rude (which it was, the character having been written obnoxiously enough to justify her eventual outburst) while her calling him short, bald and ugly was acceptable, overlooking the obvious fact that he had no say in or control over any of these factors.
Johnny Venture is probably the worst thing to happen to this series. How ironic that he was only tolerable when he was depressed. I loathe the way the series and the audience treat him as a breakout kind of character, applauding when he swaggers in or utters one line. This is everything that’s stereotypically bad about American sitcoms and of course immediately draws parallels with Fonzie in Happy Days (possibly deliberately). The Maryverse has been mostly free of this, so it’s particularly jarring here. He's a cardboard cutout and brings absolutely no value to the show.
Even more mind-boggling than Rhoda taking a job at a penny-ante costume shop is… Ida taking a job at the same penny-ante costume shop.
On the plus side, there’s been the return of Martin to the series. The Home Movies episode felt as though it had quite a lot of filler with the time spent watching said movies, but it was entertaining (even if, again, there was arguably the vanity trip of having Valerie and Julie dressing up in fat suits for them to draw attention to their weight loss in the current episodes). It may not have been much of a story, but it was still a good one, with Rhoda and Brenda’s visits done out of filial duty and clearly a chore for them, not knowing that Ida and Martin would prefer time to themselves anyway. The episode’s resolution, with them all ultimately enjoying spending time together, remembering happy times, was as warm and lovely as it was cheesy. It really captured that feeling of family, and is my favourite episode of the season so far (which is perhaps a backhanded compliment).
That episode had snowfall, and a number of other episodes have had heavy rain going on outside the windows which is nice to see and makes for good atmosphere.
Season Four
One Is A Number / Ida Works Out / Rhoda Likes Mike / The Weekend / Home Movies / Johnny’s Solo Flight / Blind Date / Ida Alone
I’ve just noticed that an episode named Who’s Shy? is missing from the playlist, so I’ll have to catch this one tonight. They synopsis says that Brenda sees a therapist to cure her shyness, but I’m not seeing much sign of it this year. In fact, I’d say current Rhoda ties in with Crimson's observation:
As you can tell, I’m watching the episodes at quite a rate. Unfortunately, my mentality around it is less “I can’t stop watching” and more “let’s get this over with”. I fear if I drag this season out I’ll lose the will to live, or at the very least the will to continue.
Some episodes and scenes are watchable enough, while far too many are a bit tedious.
Valerie Harper’s weight loss continues to be more distracting than it should be, more so because the wardrobe seems chosen to draw attention to the new look, and it feels a little that this is at the expense of story. When she’s in a fuller dress and has her hair styled well it looks OK. But when she’s in a shoulder-less gown, or a tank top, and has her hair scraped back from her head, she just looks angular and long and drawn. A couple of episodes have commented upon the weight loss, which is natural, but I thought the episode with the short, bald date was in bad taste. His commenting upon her being too skinny was framed as rude (which it was, the character having been written obnoxiously enough to justify her eventual outburst) while her calling him short, bald and ugly was acceptable, overlooking the obvious fact that he had no say in or control over any of these factors.
Johnny Venture is probably the worst thing to happen to this series. How ironic that he was only tolerable when he was depressed. I loathe the way the series and the audience treat him as a breakout kind of character, applauding when he swaggers in or utters one line. This is everything that’s stereotypically bad about American sitcoms and of course immediately draws parallels with Fonzie in Happy Days (possibly deliberately). The Maryverse has been mostly free of this, so it’s particularly jarring here. He's a cardboard cutout and brings absolutely no value to the show.
Even more mind-boggling than Rhoda taking a job at a penny-ante costume shop is… Ida taking a job at the same penny-ante costume shop.
On the plus side, there’s been the return of Martin to the series. The Home Movies episode felt as though it had quite a lot of filler with the time spent watching said movies, but it was entertaining (even if, again, there was arguably the vanity trip of having Valerie and Julie dressing up in fat suits for them to draw attention to their weight loss in the current episodes). It may not have been much of a story, but it was still a good one, with Rhoda and Brenda’s visits done out of filial duty and clearly a chore for them, not knowing that Ida and Martin would prefer time to themselves anyway. The episode’s resolution, with them all ultimately enjoying spending time together, remembering happy times, was as warm and lovely as it was cheesy. It really captured that feeling of family, and is my favourite episode of the season so far (which is perhaps a backhanded compliment).
That episode had snowfall, and a number of other episodes have had heavy rain going on outside the windows which is nice to see and makes for good atmosphere.
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And that's a shame, that your long exploration of the MTM-verse will end on a sour note; perhaps one day LOU GRANT will offer you a rebound!
But this also reinforces my own justification for quitting shows long before they end. Better to end with intriguing possibilities than confirmed disappointments.
Nice to know that RHODA carried that over from MTM. The changing seasons outside of Mary's apartment window added so much seasonal ambience. I don't recall the second apartment being as effective at portraying that, but I suppose that's the drawback to a high rise.
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I haven't given up on the idea that Rhoda might pick up a bit as they wrap it up.
There are a couple of bright spots. Firstly, the last season is quite short. Secondly, I plan to watch some MTM bonus material after finishing Rhoda. And, as you said, there's still Lou Grant on the distant horizon.
Given that many such shows go off the boil after a certain point, I'm sure you have the right idea.
I remember it the same way, with the tower block feeling less in touch with the kind of Minneapolis-specific climate.
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I felt the last season sort of started to get the hang of a "buddy" comedy, which it was clearly trying to be. Not greatness or anything that would make you sad it was cancelled, but sort of starting to find a bit of traction with it. Then again, I just hated Joe, the fact they married off Rhoda and was excited to see the last of him.
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And now a word from our "sponsor"....
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Filmed in 1997; impressive they were able to capture the look and vibe so well. Never aired as they either couldn't get rights to the music and/or Mary herself nixed it (different reasons given online).
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It completely fooled me (for whatever that's worth).
As I watched, I wondered how they got away with such a close imitation (right down to the original vocal).
And it turns out they didn't.
Was this intended to be part of a series of similar sitcom homages? And as I write this I realise that's pretty much what we got with WandaVision.
That sounds like it could be worth hanging on for.
They did marry Rhoda off far too quickly. I really liked the character, though, and I was sorry to see him go. So far the evidence suggests that the series is poorer without him than with, but that could be a timing thing.
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