Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

[Jimmy Todd]

No, babe, you were never in tat camp. The anti-MTM Show crowd are a very specific brigade. Let's just say they drink a lot of black coffee. But the series is a kind of litmus test for key personality types.

That's sounds very interesting. I'd like to hear more about that

 

[DallasFanForever]

I've said all that to say this: I was wrong about MARY TYLER MOORE and the long-held distain I had for a show I had never before seen.

I remember seeing reruns of it in the 80s and I just couldn’t grasp it. I couldn’t see the big deal over this show. It wasn’t until the mid 90s that I started watching it again and finally started to enjoy it. So maybe it’s a show that grows on you over time. At least that’s how it was for me.

 

[Seaviewer]

maybe it’s a show that grows on you over time.

That may be true of a lot of things but personally I watched it from the start and it was my favourite show through most of the 70s.

 

[DallasFanForever]

That may be true of a lot of things but personally I watched it from the start and it was my favourite show through most of the 70s.

And I can see why! Not really sure why I didn’t like it sooner but I can assure you I love it now. It became one of my favorites.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

 

[ClassyCo]

Fans online are roaring about Betty White's delicious portrayal of man-hungry Sue Ann Nivens on MARY TYLER MOORE ever since the star's death some three weeks ago. One fan online said that while people were heavily promoting Rose Nylund as Betty's crowning achievement, it was Sue Ann that provided Betty's best work.

In my view, it solely depends on how you look at it all. Despite some initial misgivings, I can honestly say now that MARY TYLER MOORE was a better-written sitcom with stronger, more in-depth characters. That, in turn, makes Sue Ann a stronger, more rounded and consistent character as a whole. I'd say the writing on MARY TYLER MOORE was also more "sophisticated" overall. On the other hand, I'd argue that THE GOLDEN GIRLS was funnier, sharper, and definitely more of a pop culture staple. On this end, that would make Rose a more influential character to modern audiences. THE GOLDEN GIRLS is consistently in reruns, and collectibles clutter a variety of trendy stores.

MARY TYLER MOORE and GOLDEN GIRLS are two funny, accomplished shows, and Betty was always appreciative for having been apart of both. And it's rewarding to know that she received Emmys for her performances on both shows. Whichever show you find the funniest will depend solely on one's personal tastes, and that personal taste will likely decide whether you find Betty's work as Sue Ann or Rose her greatest career highlight.
​

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

Hmmm
I remember reading that in preproduction, Mary was intended to be a divorcee, but the powers that be nixed it,
they said viewers would think that she divorced Dick Van Dyke!
Jack Cassidy and Lyle Waggoner were originally considered for Ted Baxter.
I'm glad Ted Knight was cast - I think he was the funniest character, and Ted Knight is a brilliant actor.
I liked Valerie Harper as Rhoda on MTM, not so much on her own shows (both Rhoda and the Hogans)
Nancy Walker is a skilled actress, but I found her character annoying.
Same with Cloris Leachman, never cared for Phyllis.
"Lou Grant' was a good show, even though I don't care for AE's politics.
"Too Close For Comfort" was an entertaining sitcom, again Ted Knight is so talented (I know it's not a spinoff)
All in all, the MTM show was great TV

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

100 last Monday! The first one born and the last one to go...

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

 

[Seaviewer]

I can honestly say now that MARY TYLER MOORE was a better-written sitcom with stronger, more in-depth characters. That, in turn, makes Sue Ann a stronger, more rounded and consistent character as a whole.

I think that's true. There's also the issue of likeability. Some may simply feel that the daffy, loveable Rose was easier to play.

 

[bmasters9]

Yep (and David Lloyd’s son, Christopher, was the showrunner on Frasier during its peak years).

I believe there was a time after the glory days of MTM studios where a bunch of the creative staff migrated to Paramount: Glen and Les Charles, James L Brooks, and Gary David Goldberg.

And James Burrows, IIRC (the Burrows in Charles-Burrows-Charles of Cheers fame, that outfit being IAW Paramount Television there).

End credits from third-season Cheers episode showing as much:

 

[DallasFanForever]

I think that's true. There's also the issue of likeability. Some may simply feel that the daffy, loveable Rose was easier to play.

I’m not so sure if Rose was the easier character to play to be honest, but to me she was definitely the more likable one. Sue Ann was great but I prefer Rose personally.

 

[Daniel Avery]

Which reminds me of some Golden Girls dialogue where Rose was upset that one of her co-workers did not like her. She could not fathom why this person didn't like her.
Rose: "Dorothy--you're the smart one. Blanche--you're the sexy one. Sophia--you're the old one. And I'm the likeable one."
Sophia [sarcastic]: "The old one isn't liking you right now."

 

[ClassyCo]

Some may simply feel that the daffy, loveable Rose was easier to play.

I don't think Betty would agree with that. She was practically pegged to play Blanche on THE GOLDEN GIRLS, and was completely blindsided when director Jay Sandrich did the switch-a-roo during production of the pilot. According to White, she knew who Blanche was, but she had to seek guidance from series creator Susan Harris to find out how to precisely play Rose.​

 

[ClassyCo]

I’m not so sure if Rose was the easier character to play to be honest, but to me she was definitely the more likable one. Sue Ann was great but I prefer Rose personally.

Sue Ann wasn't very likeable overall, but she was a good role for Betty. She continuously spoke of her time on MARY TYLER MOORE as a highlight of her TV career. She won two Emmys for her performance too. Rose, while more likeable, wasn't necessarily who Betty wanted to play when GOLDEN GIRLS first showed up.​

 

[ClassyCo]

100 last Monday! The first one born and the last one to go...

Is that a screenshot from the episode where Sue Ann scolds the crew about forgetting to plug in her stove?​

 

[Seaviewer]

I’m not so sure if Rose was the easier character to play to be honest

I don't think Betty would agree with that.

I quite agree, but there is a common perception that comedy is easier than drama (though numerous actors have debunked that) and I think the same view might extend to a seemingly simple (or simple-minded) character like Rose as distinct from a character like Sue Ann who might seem more complex.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

I quite agree, but there is a common perception that comedy is easier than drama (though numerous actors have debunked that) and I think the same view might extend to a seemingly simple (or simple-minded) character like Rose as distinct from a character like Sue Ann who might seem more complex.

I think if the actor and writers rely on the character's role of "the fool" too much for a laugh it can do a disservice to the character. There are times on The Golden Girls that it did that, but in some of the better seasons they let Rose be more than just the moron.
The best character who played the role of the shows dimwitted, but was also a complex character in their own right was Edith on All in the Family, imho. She was the dingbat, but actually wiser and stronger than all the other characters.

 

[Chris2]

The Golden Girls was more of a gag machine (and a fun one), whereas MTMS is one of the best sitcoms of all time. That said, there’s a big difference between the first four seasons of GG and the last three. The showrunners left after season 4 to work on the short-lived Fanelli Boys and GG had a pretty much all-new writing staff for the final three seasons (Witt Thomas Harris brought in the It’s a Living producers to run the show after IAL ended). It was never the same.

 

[Crimson]

Betty has said that early on, someone (Susan Harris, perhaps) told her the key to Rose was that she was naïve not stupid. That may have been how Betty approached her performance, but the writing almost never supported that. Rose was written so dumb she was practically intellectually disabled.