Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

[tommie]

In retrospect, I wish Rhoda had never been spun-off at all or, at least, they had waited for MTM to end. I'm sure it made sense at the time, but RHODA is barely a footnote in TV history now and MTM, while a topnotch show till the end, wasn't quite the same without Rhoda.

I'm not surprised that Rhoda's never really made much of an impact in its afterlife despite two seasons in the top ten and 100+ episodes. It's just... very average, with some episodes I've watched bordering on unwatchable (one of the episodes I watched focused on Joe and his struggling business and I literally fell asleep). I'm really surprised at how much the producers struggled to find their footing on this and Phyllis. I hope Lou Grant is better.

 

[Seaviewer]

I hope Lou Grant is better.

It is.

 

[Crimson]

I've never seen LOU GRANT and I've never had any curiosity. It's an interesting concept, I admit -- a sitcom character transitioning to drama. But I don't think I could ever take Lou seriously after him interacting with Ted and Sue Ann.

I can't think of many other sitcom to drama characters. Trapper John? I'm not too familiar with the M.A.S.H. world.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I've never seen LOU GRANT and I've never had any curiosity. It's an interesting concept, I admit -- a sitcom character transitioning to drama. But I don't think I could ever take Lou seriously after him interacting with Ted and Sue Ann.

I can't think of many other sitcom to drama characters. Trapper John? I'm not too familiar with the M.A.S.H. world.

Even I didn't see too much of LOU GRANT because of the night it was on (Mondays, at 10pm , if I can think back that far -- which, for some reason, was a bad schedule for me) but for what I saw of it, it was fairly good -- for the time -- and the unusual concept of a sitcom character in a drama mostly worked, in large part because of Ed Asner (and his Scorpio Rising "boss" vibe). And it was a decent production, and got a bunch of Emmy awards like its parent series.

Certainly, LOU GRANT pulled it off better than either RHODA or PHYLLIS; even though RHODA managed to eke out a 5 season run, after the series' flimsy identity was lost, its big ratings dropped precipitously, and PHYLLIS died in 2 years partly because much of the cast did the same....

Predictably, Rhoda lost her side-character snarkiness once she went center-stage with her own spin-off (and Brenda became the "loser" in a way Rhoda never really was, even on the MTM Show) while PHYLLIS tried to maintain Phyllis' original neuroses and not make her overly sympathetic, but somehow it just seem to flounder.

Once MARY TYLER MOORE cancelled itself in 1977, Gavin MacLeod spun-off (with Spellingesque "success") to LOVE BOAT, and Betty White and Georgia Engel teamed up for another MTM Enterprises sitcom called THE BETTY WHITE SHOW where Betty played a none-too-talented actress in a TV cop show-within-a-show called "Undercover Woman" and an obvious satire of Angie Dickinson's POLICE WOMAN (which reportedly none-too-pleased Dickinson who stormed out of an early screening (apparently somewhat facetiously) and growled at her pal "if your hair gets even one whit blonder..."). But THE BETTY WHITE SHOW didn't make it --- in fact, I almost never saw it (I think it was also on Mondays before LOU GRANT) and its being shot on cheapy-videotape somehow decreased its appeal (although that worked for the Norman Lear sitcoms).

LOU GRANT was the spin-off/sequel/MTM cast show that was arguably most successful, and even it was cancelled after 5 seasons due more to Asner's outspoken liberal politics in conflict with the increasing Reaganistic conservatism slipping into the '80s culture (i.e., calls from on-high were made to the network brass) when criticizing Reagan was almost considered blasphemy in America.

In 1980, Ted Knight starred in the horrible TOO CLOSE FOR COMFORT sitcom when they were frequently casting unfunny people in poorly-written TV shows, where he marinated until his death in 1986, the program retitled "The Ted Knight Show" at the eleventh hour, presumably for pre-mortem vanity purposes.

I stopped watching MASH after its first three or four years because it was always against something else I wanted to see more. I rarely saw TRAPPER JOHN partly because Pernell Roberts was hard to take as a series regular (unless he's Adam Cartwright) and the sequel series AfterMASH was just too weird that I never really gave it a chance.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

I'm not surprised that Rhoda's never really made much of an impact in its afterlife despite two seasons in the top ten and 100+ episodes. It's just... very average, with some episodes I've watched bordering on unwatchable (one of the episodes I watched focused on Joe and his struggling business and I literally fell asleep). I'm really surprised at how much the producers struggled to find their footing on this and Phyllis. I hope Lou Grant is better.

I tend to think that Valerie Harper is a very good second banana, but middling at best as a lead.

Even I didn't see too much of LOU GRANT because of the night it was on (Mondays, at 10pm , if I can think back that far -- which, for some reason, was a bad schedule for me) but for what I saw of it, it was fairly good -- for the time -- and the unusual concept of a sitcom character in a drama mostly worked, in large part because of Ed Asner (and his Scorpio Rising "boss" vibe). And it was a decent production, and got a bunch of Emmy awards like its parent series.

Certainly, LOU GRANT pulled it off better than either RHODA or PHYLLIS; even though RHODA managed to eke out a 5 season run, after the series' flimsy identity was lost, its big ratings dropped precipitously, and PHYLLIS died in 2 years partly because much of the cast did the same....

Predictably, Rhoda lost her side-character snarkiness once she went center-stage with her own spin-off (and Brenda became the "loser" in a way Rhoda never really was, even on the MTM Show) while PHYLLIS tried to maintain Phyllis' original neuroses and not make her overly sympathetic, but somehow it just seem to flounder.

Once MARY TYLER MOORE cancelled itself in 1977, Gavin MacLeod spun-off (with Spellingesque "success") to LOVE BOAT, and Betty White and Georgia Engel teamed up for another MTM Enterprises sitcom called THE BETTY WHITE SHOW where Betty played a none-too-talented actress in a TV cop show-within-a-show called "Undercover Woman" and an obvious satire of Angie Dickinson's POLICE WOMAN (which reportedly none-too-pleased Dickinson who stormed out of an early screening (apparently somewhat facetiously) and growled at her pal "if your hair gets even one whit blonder..."). But THE BETTY WHITE SHOW didn't make it --- in fact, I almost never saw it (I think it was also on Mondays before LOU GRANT) and its being shot on cheapy-videotape somehow decreased its appeal (although that worked for the Norman Lear sitcoms).

LOU GRANT was the spin-off/sequel/MTM cast show that was arguably most successful, and even it was cancelled after 5 seasons due more to Asner's outspoken liberal politics in conflict with the increasing Reaganistic conservatism slipping into the '80s culture (i.e., calls from on-high were made to the network brass) when criticizing Reagan was almost considered blasphemy in America.

In 1980, Ted Knight starred in the horrible TOO CLOSE FOR COMFORT sitcom when they were frequently casting unfunny people in poorly-written TV shows, where he marinated until his death in 1986, the program retitled "The Ted Knight Show" at the eleventh hour, presumably for pre-mortem vanity purposes.

I stopped watching MASH after its first three or four years because it was always against something else I wanted to see more. I rarely saw TRAPPER JOHN partly because Pernell Roberts was hard to take as a series regular (unless he's Adam Cartwright) and the sequel series AfterMASH was just too weird that I never really gave it a chance.

Hmm
I actually liked Too Close for Comfort, good cast, that became even better when the great Audrey Meadows (Alice Kramden) joined
the cast. Lydia Cornell - such a beautiful woman - I thought she would have more of a career.

Trapper John- I guess I was nostalgic to see Adam Cartwright's portrayer.-I thought MASH was never quite the same after Larry Linville departed.
He was a good actor who had to play a buffoon, but he really owned the part.

Lou Grant - a relatively successful transfer from a comic character too a serious one
Nancy Marchand (later in the Sopranos) was a strong supporting character.
Not sure, but I think William Paley made the decision to cancel
According to wiki, "The show's ratings had fallen from an average 19.6 rating over the previous three seasons to 16.6 in its final year, finishing the season 43rd among primetime network series.[4]"

I thought your views on these shows was quite interesting

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Lydia Cornell - such a beautiful woman - I thought she would have more of a career.

Really...??

Not sure, but I think William Paley made the decision to cancel
According to wiki, "The show's ratings had fallen from an average 19.6 rating over the previous three seasons to 16.6 in its final year, finishing the season 43rd among primetime network series

Asner and others were convinced politics were the main cause. His enmity with President Reagan was well known and quite public (two political Scorpio Rising/Moon in Tauruses, just as Kate Hepburn, also a Scorpio Rising/Moon in Taurus, refused to do the Kennedy Center honors until Reagan was out of the White House -- unaware, as many of us were, that Poppy Bush was actually even worse).

But I digress.

Ratings usually slip eventually, but the demographics were still good for LOU GRANT, and many felt the politics kerfuffle was the tipping point in the decision being made to cancel it.

We'll never know for sure, I guess.

 

[tommie]

Going by the ratings, Lou Grant was always pretty much filler programming - it didn't rate well enough to be a priority, but also not bad enough that they couldn't use it to fill an unattractive time slot. It's possible that the politics pushed it to the wrong side of that bubble, but I'd also assume CBS's rise with Dallas in the early 80s might've meant they felt like they didn't need Lou as a filler.

 

[Seaviewer]

Asner and others were convinced politics were the main cause.

That's the way I remember it, but I guess it's possible that that's just what he wanted to tell himself.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

A little elaboration and context that may or may not be helpful.

Personally, I thought "Lou Grant" was an above average hour long drama, maybe a little slow moving for a mass audience more
familiar with the MTM show.

I would analyze this from the perspective of William Paley, the powerful head of CBS, a broadcasting pioneer, and an astute businessman.

If the politics involved were a factor in losing advertising revenues as a result of companies removing their ads, the specific reactions of politicians becomes a minor point, relatively speaking. It is Commercial television, and commercials create revenues

It is Show Business (emphasis on Business) and William Paley is not in the business of losing money with a show that was low middle of the pack
in ratings and declining.

The First Amendment in effect says that the government can not suppress free speech, but a private business is under no such obligation
If Mr Asner wishes to engage legally in political activism, that is his First Amendment right, but
it does not shield him from the decisions of an empoyer in a competitive, market based industry.
Mr. Paley also has the right to cancel a tv show for a wide variety of reasons, in this case, declining ratings and a possible loss of revenue by
companies removing their advertising (These companies also have the right to choose who they will and will not
form contracts for that purpose)

If "Lou Grant" was a profitable and growing property, William Paley might not have canceled it

 

[Chris2]

Lou Grant was cancelled when it was 43rd in the ratings, and had fallen In viewership during its last two seasons. So I think the cancellation was justifiable. Creatively, I think it was a five year show and ran the right amount of time.

Re: Too Close for Comfort. I don’t think it has aged well, but the early years were kind of dumb fun. When it moved from ABC into first-run syndication, the writing staff changed and they tried tackling more serious topics, which was a mistake for such a lightweight show. Also, way too much Monroe. Lydia Cornell said that Knight told new the new writers that he was the center of the show, and the parts for the daughters were diminished. The actress playing the brunette daughter actually left the show over this, early in the fifth season. And of course the sixth season/sequel series (originally called “The Ted Knight Show”) had neither daughter. They brought in Pat Carroll which was a head scratcher in terms of lowering the demographics for an aging series.

 

[tommie]

If "Lou Grant" was a profitable and growing property, William Paley might not have canceled it

Yep - and this is the bottom line ultimately. Networks largely don't care as long as it doesn't affect the profitability (look at Fox's programming in the early years - it all goes pretty much against everything Fox News delivers).

Hell, if Ed Asner was the problem but the show was well-rated they might've solved it like ABC solved the Roseanne "problem".

But the show being cancelled due to politics is a lot better story than "it rated sort-of mediocre and they decided it wasn't profitable enough".

 

[Crimson]

way too much Monroe.

My vote for the two most irksome characters in sitcom history.

 

[tommie]

Watched the first episode of Lou Grant and I found it very try-hard, but maybe that feeling will ease up a bit as the show progresses as it's only a pilot.

 

[Daniel Avery]

I also liked Too Close when it originally aired. Ted Knight's role (Henry) was a good palate cleanser for "Ted Baxter," and I especially loved Nancy Dussault's character (his wife, Muriel). PlutoTV began re-airing the show a while back and I have to admit it does not age well; I enjoyed the nostalgia but it felt very formulaic and did not really break any ground. It was smart of Ted Knight to play a role different from Ted Baxter to remind viewers he could be more, but it is rather apparent in repeat viewing that it would have been a better product if they had not treated it as a "Ted Knight star vehicle" and allowed the other actors to carry more of the show. The other cast members had good chemistry and I could even tolerate Monroe in small doses. The problem is that Monroe's various misadventures allowed Ted/Henry to indulge in slapstick-y physical humor that tended to exclude the rest of the cast. Muriel ended up more like Joanna Loudon, Mary Frann's character on Newhart who was the beautiful "straight-woman" reacting to her wacky husband but having no fun of her own. I never got to see the syndicated years, but from what I read I missed very little.

 

[tommie]

I've been jumping around Lou Grant the past week or so and it really does improve upon the pilot - contrary to what people have said, it's not all doom and gloom and some of the humour could've fit nicely into Mary Tyler Moore (Mary going to jail over not revealing her sources could've easily been a plot on Lou Grant) - they've just shifted the focus to drama. I don't think it's as radical of a makeover as a lot of people have claimed.
Of course individual episodes watchability does depend on how engaged you are in a particular "issue of the week", but I was surprised how a lot of them translated well into today's landscape (ie things like "urban crisis"). Since the cast is stable from episode 3 forward there's no real issue with seeing them out of order, bar some occasional references to past stories but the writing seems to have been kept at an even quality through the seasons (from what I can tell).

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

A CGI tour of Mary's apartment -- although I always picture her bathroom as being round, in the lower part of the turret:

 

[tommie]

So, I'm finished with Mary Tyler Moore. The finale was perfect and it just shows you that you don't need long "farewell" seasons to craft a proper series ender.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

MTM show had a great ensemble cast, led by Mary Tyler Moore herself. Ted Knight was my favorite supporting actor

 

[alovelylady7991]

Didn't like Joe at all.
Your suggestion could have worked better

What Rhoda needed was more of her opposite - say a beige to her red.
The actor cast as "Joe" was too much the same "loud" energy as Valerie Harper.



An actor like Tim Matheson (seen here with Kate Jackson) would have been a much better "Joe".

 

[Crimson]

I'm finished with Mary Tyler Moore. The finale was perfect and it just shows you that you don't need long "farewell" seasons to craft a proper series ender.

It's about as perfect a finale as any series has had. It's not one of those fake, 'everyone gets their perfect happy ending' endings; nor is it excessively disruptive to the vibe of the series. It's a definitive ending -- the group will no longer be working together -- but one can easily imagine them merrily staying in each others lives, continuing their friendships.

(Although I suppose LOU GRANT and the terrible MARY & RHODA TV-movie rained on that parade, but I've never seen the former and I've mostly forgotten the later.)