Russia begins the invasion

Angela Channing

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1.4 million -- 90% of which have been Ukrainian.
These figures are not verified and is just repeating Russian numbers. Why would you just accept Russian figures without questioning them? According to Ukraine, 859,920 Russian troops and 46,000 Ukrainian troops have been killed. I don't know what the true figure is but I wouldn't just regurgitate figures put out by Russia and claim they are true, especially as historically Russian data have often been lies.

 

Frank Underwood

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The reality of the situation is that Russia illegally invaded Ukraine so to end the war, Russia needs to withdraw its troops and respect Ukrainian borders. That would bring the war to an end and save lives.

Who is arguing that Ukraine should concede its sovereign territory to Russia? Vladimir Putin is. Saying Ukraine should surrender its land and the rest of the world should ignore that Russia broke international law is Putin's position.
I'm well aware that Russia illegally invaded Ukraine, but as I said before, we don't live in a perfect world. Russia's not going to just withdraw their troops, no matter how much we want them too. While people are digging in their heels because Putin won't do the right thing, innocent Ukrainians continue to die. Again, that's the reality of the situation. I certainly don't want to see Putin conquer Ukrainian territory, but I also don't want any more dead Ukrainians. We'll just have to agree to disagree on what the better option is.

Of course, the 2014 US-backed coup in Ukraine should warrant just as much contempt as Putin's invasion IMO. The US doesn't insert itself in foreign affairs to protect civilians.
 
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Angela Channing

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I'm well aware that Russia illegally invaded Ukraine, but as I said before, we don't live in a perfect world. Russia's not going to just withdraw their troops, no matter how much we want them too. While people are digging in their heels because Putin won't do the right thing, innocent Ukrainians continue to die. Again, that's the reality of the situation. I certainly don't want to see Putin conquer Ukrainian territory, but I also don't want any more dead Ukrainians. We'll just have to agree to disagree on what the better option is.

Of course, the 2014 US-backed coup in Ukraine should warrant just as much contempt as Putin's invasion IMO. The US doesn't insert itself in foreign affairs to protect civilians.
We won't agree because you trust Putin and I don't. Putin has repeatedly broken previous ceasefire agreements with Ukraine so without other countries being willing to guarantee any future agreement, there is good reason to believe Putin will continue the killing before the ink is dry on any new deal.

If Ukraine concede land to Russia, that territory will just become the new staging post for the next Russian invasion. If Russia is given seized land and its international law violations are ignored, it will just embolden Putin to carry out another invasion. That's what happened after Russia seized Crimea. Giving in to Russia now will just cause greater loss of life in the future.
 

Frank Underwood

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It's not a matter of "trusting Putin." He hasn't retreated in 3 years, and it doesn't appear that he's going to be defeated militarily. In the meantime, Ukrainians are being killed.

On top of that, the people who oppose peace negotiations with Putin have only put forth indefinite war as the "solution." Hmm, why would anybody have a problem with that?

At what point do you at least try to get Putin to back off, or are Ukrainians supposed to be lambs sent to slaughter in perpetuity?
 
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Snarky Oracle!

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These figures are not verified and is just repeating Russian numbers. Why would you just accept Russian figures without questioning them?

^^
She thinks I got the 1.4 million numbers from Putin, too.

But that's the talking point now: you must be a Putin puppet if you point out things we don't like. And when you observe that repeated pattern in their argument, they just keep on doing it because it's all they've got.

Within the United States, anyone who breaks ranks with the Democrats is accused of being a "Putin puppet" and "a Russian assert", but anyone who goes against American foreign policy, Republican or Democrat, is also called "a Putin puppet/Russian asset".

It's just the thing, now.

Nice it works in Europe, too.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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I'm well aware that Russia illegally invaded Ukraine, but as I said before, we don't live in a perfect world. Russia's not going to just withdraw their troops, no matter how much we want them too. While people are digging in their heels because Putin won't do the right thing, innocent Ukrainians continue to die. Again, that's the reality of the situation. I certainly don't want to see Putin conquer Ukrainian territory, but I also don't want any more dead Ukrainians. We'll just have to agree to disagree on what the better option is.

Of course, the 2014 US-backed coup in Ukraine should warrant just as much contempt as Putin's invasion IMO. The US doesn't insert itself in foreign affairs to protect civilians.

It's not a matter of "trusting Putin." He hasn't retreated in 3 years, and it doesn't appear that he's going to be defeated militarily. In the meantime, Ukrainians are being killed.

On top of that, the people who oppose peace negotiations with Putin have only put forth indefinite war as the "solution." Hmm, why would anybody have a problem with that?

At what point do you at least try to get Putin to back off, or are Ukrainians supposed to be lambs sent to slaughter in perpetuity?

What's so ridiculous is that, on this thread, we have two white American males insisting "the wars are our fault!" and European females insisting the wars are not our fault and we're only blaming ourselves based on talking points from Putin...

I mean, in what universe does that happen??
 
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Angela Channing

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It's not a matter of "trusting Putin." He hasn't retreated in 3 years, and it doesn't appear that he's going to be defeated militarily. In the meantime, Ukrainians are being killed.

On top of that, the people who oppose peace negotiations with Putin have only put forth indefinite war as the "solution." Hmm, why would anybody have a problem with that?

At what point do you at least try to get Putin to back off, or are Ukrainians supposed to be lambs sent to slaughter in perpetuity?
If you don't trust Putin then what's the point of negotiations if he won't comply with anything agreed? Russia has already reject the idea of any kind of peace keeping force being allowed in Ukraine. If you support ending the war, what concessions do you think Russia should make to get to that point?

I agree with Zelensky when he said "A reliable and lasting peace is much more than silence at the front. We remember that Russia has violated the ceasefire more than 25 times since 2014... Therefore, peace can only be the result of balanced diplomacy and absolutely clear security guarantees".

Anyone can say they want peace negotiations but what Trump and Putin are proposing is a Ukrainian peace capitulation in which Russia makes no concessions and Ukraine is forced to agree a plan stitched up by Trump and Putin without involving them. Peace talks should happen, of course, and they should negotiate Russia's compete withdrawal from Ukrainian territory and what mechanism should be put in place to prevent any further Russian invasion.

^^
She thinks I got the 1.4 million numbers from Putin, too.

But that's the talking point now: you must be a Putin puppet if you point out things we don't like. And when you observe that repeated pattern in their argument, they just keep on doing it because it's all they've got.

Within the United States, anyone who breaks ranks with the Democrats is accused of being a "Putin puppet" and "a Russian assert", but anyone who goes against American foreign policy, Republican or Democrat, is also called "a Putin puppet/Russian asset".

It's just the thing, now.

Nice it works in Europe, too.
Where did you get that number from if it wasn't Putin propaganda? Has that figure been verified and why does it differ so significantly from the figures reported by Ukraine?

What's so ridiculous is that, on this thread, we have two white American males insisting "the wars are our fault!" and European females insisting the wars are not our fault and we're only blaming ourselves based our talking points from Putin...
So as well as repeating Putin talking points you want to throw a bit of sexism into the mix. I have absolutely no idea what gender has to do with anything.

By the way, this European male doesn't think this war is your fault, I think it's Putin's fault because he illegally invaded Ukraine.

I mean, in what universe does that happen??
Maybe you should consult your zodiac charts to find out. They have almost as much credibility as the rest of the guff you have posted on this thread.
 

Laurie!

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What this war and a peace agreement where only Ukraine makes concessions, says to every other country on the planet is....you need nuclear weapons or you're a lame duck. Is that really the message that should be sent?

How can anyone tell Iran, Iraq, Syria, North Korea, etc they can't have nuclear weapons with any measure of credibility? If they sign an agreement and promise not to have nukes in exchange for defense assistance when needed....they'll be left high and dry because the west doesn't honour agreements.

Sooooo I guess Zelensky just needs some nuclear war heads given back and aimed at Moscow if you want the war to end for sure and with future security guarantees. Or even the threat of being given them unless Russia cedes Ukrainian territory.
 
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Frank Underwood

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I'm not sure why some people are insistent on doubling down that the US didn't play a role in Putin's invasion when they clearly did.

Aside from NATO provocation (which is well sourced and documented in this thread,) I've also pointed to the 2014 US-backed coup in Ukraine as a source of provocation:

The most critical events that have been airbrushed out of the West's political narrative are the violation of agreements made by Western leaders at the end of the Cold War not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, and the U.S.-backed coup in Ukraine in February 2014. Western mainstream media accounts date the crisis in Ukraine back to Russia's 2014 reintegration of Crimea, and the decision by ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine to secede from Ukraine as the Luhansk and Donetsk People's Republics.

But these were not unprovoked actions. They were responses to the U.S.-backed coup, in which an armed mob led by the neo-Nazi Right Sector militia stormed the Ukrainian parliament, forcing elected President Viktor Yanukovych and members of his party to flee for their lives. After the events of Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington, that scenario should now be easier for Americans to understand.

The remaining members of parliament voted to form a new government, subverting the political transition and plans for a new election that Yanukovych had publicly agreed to a day earlier, after meetings with the foreign ministers of France, Germany and Poland.

The U.S. role in managing the coup was exposed by a leaked 2014 audio recording of a conversation between Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and U.S. ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt as they planned to sideline the European Union ("f*** the EU," as Nuland put it) and shoehorn in U.S. protégé Arseniy Yatsenyuk ("Yats") as Ukraine's prime minister.

At the end of the call, Pyatt told Nuland, "We want to try to get somebody with an international personality to come out here and help to midwife this thing."

Nuland replied (verbatim): "So on that piece, Geoff, when I wrote the note, [Biden's national security advisor Jake] Sullivan's come back to me VFR [very quickly?], saying you need [Vice President] Biden and I said probably tomorrow for an attaboy and to get the deets to stick. So Biden's willing."

It has never been explained why two senior State Department officials who were discussing a regime change in Ukraine looked to then-Vice President Biden to "midwife this thing," instead of their actual boss, Secretary of State John Kerry.

Now that the crisis over Ukraine has blown up with a vengeance during Biden's first year as president, the unanswered questions about his role in the 2014 coup have become more urgent and troubling. And why did Biden appoint Nuland to the No. 4 position at the State Department, despite (or because of?) her critical role in triggering the disintegration of Ukraine and an eight-year- civil war that has killed at least 14,000 people?

Both of Nuland's hand-picked puppets in Ukraine, Prime Minister Yatsenyuk and President Petro Poroshenko, were soon mired in corruption scandals. Yatsenyuk was forced to resign after two years and Poroshenko was outed in a tax evasion scandal revealed in the Panama Papers. Ukraine remains the poorest country in Europe, and one of the most corrupt.

The Ukrainian military had little enthusiasm for a civil war against its own people in eastern Ukraine, so the post-coup government formed new "National Guard" units to assault the separatist republics. The infamous Azov Battalion drew its first recruits from the Right Sector militia and openly displays neo-Nazi symbols, yet has kept on receiving U.S. arms and training, even after Congress explicitly cut off its U.S. funding in the 2018 defense appropriation bill.

Source: In the rapidly worsening Ukraine fiasco, the U.S. is reaping exactly what it sowed | Salon.com

If people care about Ukraine's sovereignty and security like they claim, why would they not have the same level of contempt for the US as they do for Putin?
 
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Frank Underwood

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As far as ending the war goes, there's no such thing as a perfect solution. Trump has threatened Russia with sanctions if they don't comply, saying "I can do things financially that would be very bad for Russia. I don’t want to do that, because I want to get peace.” I'm not sure that's enough to sway Putin, who's hoping to gain Ukrainian territory and the guarantee that Ukraine will not join NATO. The latter demand seems reasonable to me, but I do agree it would set a bad precedent if Russia got part of Ukraine in the deal.

On the other hand, innocent Ukrainians will continue to be killed for the foreseeable future if something isn't done. I'm not under any delusion that Putin's a trustworthy person, and he will likely have to be pressured into agreeing to a ceasefire and withdrawing troops. What that pressure looks like exactly remains to be seen. Trump's envoy, Steve Witkoff, arrived in Moscow today to meet with Putin. One thing the US could offer is to stop meddling in the affairs of Ukraine and facilitating a proxy war with Russia.

Putin's word isn't reliable, but I believe peace is at least worth trying for. At the very least, the US could stop contributing to the war by cutting off funding for weaponry. Or we could just hit the self-destruct button and push Russia into threatening the world with nukes. That seems to be where we're headed in this polarized, divided world we live in.
 
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Laurie!

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I'm fully aware of the U.S. provoking coups, installing murderous dictators, training terrorists and then leaving them to fend for themselves when the U.S. has gotten what they want. Only to blame those U.S. backed people later when it suits their narrative. So I'm not sure why you think I'm doubling down with a refusal to admit that.

That doesn't however change that it was Russia that invaded Ukraine for their land. It's Ukraine's fight to take to the U.S. governmen for meddling; not Putin's. So either Putin is dumb and giving the U.S. an off ramp for blame or he's just seizing this opportunity to reassemble the Soviet Union. I certainly don't think he's dumb. Trump is dumb and lacks the stones to deal with Russia.

Sanctions??? LMAO.
 

Frank Underwood

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Look at the reply to Snarky's post, and you'll see who exactly my "doubling down" comment was directed at.

As I said, I'm not sure sanctions will convince Putin to back down. However, "having the stones" to deal with Russia hasn't worked out too well. The US sent billions in weaponry to Ukraine, and all they achieved is a stalemate at the expense of dead Ukrainians. Americans are war weary, which is why politicians and pundits are telling us how lucrative war is for the US defense industry (how sick is that?). A clash of imperialist ambitions has sadly placed Ukraine at the center of a power struggle between Russia and the West.
 
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Laurie!

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The US sent billions in weaponry to Ukraine, and all they achieved is a stalemate at the expense of dead Ukrainians.
We've basically handicapped Ukraine. Russia is allowed to use all methods available but we tell Ukraine, they can't have the weapons capable of long range strikes into Russia. For the longest time, no missile defense system (then only a few), no fighter jets (then a few), etc.

We tip-toe around so not to piss off Russia and have never taken the leash off Ukraine. Israel on the other hand....it seems to be okay to give them whatever they need to murder and displace Palestinians.
 

Frank Underwood

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Israel on the other hand....it seems to be okay to give them whatever they need to murder and displace Palestinians.
Yes, the US-funded genocide in Gaza is another shameful event. Israel practically controls every aspect of the US government thanks to AIPAC.

Trump wants credit for helping to negotiate a ceasefire, but his goal is to drive out Palestinians just like Netanyahu. They want to redevelop Gaza into their personal riviera.
 
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Angela Channing

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This is a very interesting report from the BBC about whether Ukrainian people think a ceasefire with Russia will work. To summarise, they don't think it will. It should serve as a reminder to people that we need to listen to Ukrainians rather than assume we know what's best for them. They appear to want to continue to fight for their sovereignty.

 

Frank Underwood

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Silly me, I should have never assumed that living is better than being slaughtered.

It's comforting to know that media outside the US also manufactures consent for war. #BlackrockLivesMatter

In the immortal words of John Lennon, "All we are saying is give war a chance!"

 
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Angela Channing

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Some people think the fight for freedom is better than living under a oppressive totalitarian regime. I respect and support their choice.

It's not for Putin's puppet in the White House to decide if and:when Ukraine should give up the fight, it's for the people of Ukraine.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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Some people think the fight for freedom is better than living under a oppressive totalitarian regime. I respect and support their choice.

It's not for Putin's puppet in the White House to decide if and:when Ukraine should give up the fight, it's for the people of Ukraine.

So let's just continue killing all of the Ukranians until the very last one is dead. So long as the American military contractors continue raping the U.S. Treasury of working class tax dollars and, that's apparently all that matters.

Russia was never going to lose this war. So let's just let everybody in Ukraine die?? For corporate profits??
 
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