Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

[Mel O'Drama]

Rhoda
Season Five
Martin Doesn’t Live Here Anymore / In Search Of Martin / Rhoda vs. Ida / Brenda Gets Engaged / Meet The Goodwins / Ida’s Roommate / Martin Comes Home / Jack’s New Image / Martin Swallows His Heart / The Date In The Iron Mask


As predicted, the short season count goes in its favour. Season Five is a definite step up from the previous one in terms of watchability anyway and I suspect the season’s brevity is a factor in this as there’s less room for filler.

Because of this, the changes for Season Five feel mostly like improvements. I really like the jazzy new arrangement of the theme with its abundant sax (with my only reservation being that it’s spliced onto the opening bars of the Season Four theme, which means the key changes slightly right after Valerie’s credit). The tone of the season overall is good enough. Ida’s increased presence means more of an emphasis on the family which is no bad thing, and Martin’s absence has become a plot point this year with him running off to Florida (and Ida telling her neighbours he’s in prison to avoid the disgrace of them knowing he’d willingly gone without her).

There’s no sight or mention of Johnny Venture this year, which is a gift in itself. Gary hasn’t been missed as much as I’d feared and, while I’d have preferred the apparently-forgotten Ramone to be floating about the costume hire shop instead of silly one-joke Tina, at least her character has remained somewhat in check and without too much screen time. Even Valerie Harper’s tight perm is an improvement over the distractingly unflattering aesthetics of Season Four.

Once again it seems the playlist doesn’t have the episodes in strict air order. The Total Brenda should have come after Jack’s New Image, but will instead be the next episode I’ll watch.

The airdates have piqued my interest since the second half appears to have been shown quite sporadically, with a gap of four months between the ninth and tenth episodes. I can only guess that the new Saturday evening slot meant there were more occasional special events which interrupted regular programming, but… four months? It raises so many questions: Was Rhoda in trouble and pulled after the ninth, with the remaining episodes burning off after its mid-season replacement had run? Or was it always planned for some to be transmitted with a gap for some inexplicable reason?

With just three episodes remaining, I’m curious to see how Rhoda wraps, even if I have a feeling the ending is going to be more Phyllis than Mary Tyler Moore.

RHODA's changing/lack-of identities, already much-discussed, always leaves me perplexed.

Yes. The changing tones can almost be summed up by the wildly different variations of the opening titles and the theme tune arrangement over just five seasons. Right up to the end, it feels they were still looking for the right fit.

I can't decide if they did their late-'70s-disco-era thing too much, or if they should've leaned into it more than they did, shifting into a Slutty-Rhoda-does-Studio-54 distinctiveness where Rhoda & Brenda wind up like Diane Keaton at the end of LOOKING FOR MR. GOODBAR.

Rhoda's the series that could have got away with this. Compared with MTM and Phyllis, it just feels more drab and kitchen sink to me (probably in large part due to the apartment sets leaning into murk a little more). New York is (probably) more naturally gritty than Minneapolis or San Francisco, as well, so it's a natural fit.

 

[tommie]

Was Rhoda in trouble and pulled after the ninth, with the remaining episodes burning off after its mid-season replacement had run? Or was it always planned for some to be transmitted with a gap for some inexplicable reason?

I'd say it was in trouble. The ratings were in freefall and back then Nielsen only tracked their seasons through March. So pulling it by December and then airing the remaining episodes in May meant they weren't counted for the season average (which helps determine ad rates). There's also the point that episode 13 are usually written / filmed by December, so they would've needed to decide if they were to give Rhoda the "back-nine" for the season or not.

I guess interestingly, MTM still managed to produce a pilot for Carlton: Your Doorman, a proposed animated spin-off for Carlton:

Carlton Your Doorman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So I guess they weren't entirely "over" Maryverse.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

The ratings were in freefall and back then Nielsen only tracked their seasons through March. So pulling it by December and then airing the remaining episodes in May meant they weren't counted for the season average (which helps determine ad rates). There's also the point that episode 13 are usually written / filmed by December, so they would've needed to decide if they were to give Rhoda the "back-nine" for the season or not.

Aha. Suddenly the reason for the strange scheduling becomes crystal clear. Thanks for confirming this.

I guess this means they didn't know the last episode filmed would be the last episode ever, so I'll keep my expectations low when it comes to getting a proper ending.

I guess interestingly, MTM still managed to produce a pilot for Carlton: Your Doorman, a proposed animated spin-off for Carlton:

Oh, I'd read about this in passing, but I hadn't clocked that it was animated. It's available to watch. I just took a peek at a few seconds and it looks terrible so naturally, I'm in.

I'll watch it right after Rhoda, then I can purge its memory with some of the MTM bonus material.

 

[Crimson]

Martin’s absence has become a plot point this year with him running off to Florida (and Ida telling her neighbours he’s in prison to avoid the disgrace of them knowing he’d willingly gone without her).

I don't recall the storyline at all; what was the context here, that Martin actually left Ida? If so, I don't like it. I get that writers sometimes had to get creative to explain the absence of an actor but I hate when they use character assassination as the explanation. Curiously, THE GOLDEN GIRLS also did some very weird things to his character to explain Harold Gould not always being available.

 

[tommie]

Aha. Suddenly the reason for the strange scheduling becomes crystal clear. Thanks for confirming this.

Actually, looking at it, I'm unsure if CBS actually aired all episodes in the original run. The only source I can find for those final four episodes airing is on Wikipedia, which isn't reliable. The dates would indicate that those would've aired on Fridays, but I can find none such listings indicating that.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

I don't recall the storyline at all; what was the context here, that Martin actually left Ida? If so, I don't like it.

Martin did leave Ida to go to Florida, but it was framed as a kind of "I need to find myself" mid-life crisis. I don't know if you remember an earlier episode where Martin was depressed over his perceived lack of accomplishment and it was discovered he'd been sneaking away to play piano in a bar so he felt he was doing something interesting? The Florida business felt like it revisited that territory.

In the season opener, Rhoda and Brenda visit the Morganstern home only for Ida to reveal that Martin had left some months earlier and she'd been keeping it from them. The following episode saw Brenda and Rhoda track him down where he explained his reasons. Then he returned home by the middle of the season.

In execution, I didn't hate it, but I did find it a strange choice in a way since Harold Gould appeared in three of the Season Five episodes (almost 25%), whereas he'd only been in two episodes the previous full season and nothing was made of it. If anything it felt as though it was written in to give Gould and Nancy Walker something to do.

One satisfying thing is that the reset button was hit as soon as he returned. Ida insisted on him wooing her to win her over again (though Martin's initial response that it would feel strange to date again after 40+ years of marriage didn't hold much water with this viewer, all things considered).

Actually, looking at it, I'm unsure if CBS actually aired all episodes in the original run. The only source I can find for those final four episodes airing is on Wikipedia, which isn't reliable.

Oh my. It seems we may have stumbled upon a mystery.

Another discovery from looking at the airdates on IMDB: Rhoda aired on British TV in 1981. It went completely under my radar, and I have no memory of it ever being shown or repeated here (unlike Valerie).

 

[Crimson]

In execution, I didn't hate it, but I did find it a strange choice

Execution can make just about any plot work, so I'm glad it didn't sour the character for you. In concept, I still hate it. Martin was shown as a solid guy and loving family man; I find it hard to believe that man would abandon his family even due to a mid-life crisis. I have no idea why Gould appeared so infrequently. He was a busy actor in the 70s, but didn't seem to have any ongoing conflicts that would have prevented regular appearances on RHODA. In this case, I agree that it may have been easy to just not refer to the character since it was well established already that he didn't often appear; no convoluted excuse was needed. So maybe it was an intentional plot choice and not driven by working around Gould's availability.

Interesting to see Gould turned up on LOU GRANT, although obviously not as Mr. Morgenstern. MTM Productions really loved to recycle actors.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

In concept, I still hate it.

Yes, I can understand that.

In viewing, think the biggest help was actually Harold Gould's continued presence as the story played out. He's so naturally likeable that I would find it difficult to be angry at the character. It helped sell me on the plot even though objectively I shouldn't like it for all the reasons you've stated.

I have no idea why Gould appeared so infrequently. He was a busy actor in the 70s, but didn't seem to have any ongoing conflicts that would have prevented regular appearances on RHODA.

I'd wondered about this too and had just decided he was in demand elsewhere. If there were no conflicts that puts a different spin on things.

It crossed my mind that he wanted to maintain a degree of esteem by not committing to a sitcom while doing films... but in his Seventies filmography, his television appearances are very extensive indeed, so who knows. Perhaps he was just one of those actors who didn't enjoy feeling tied to an ongoing project. The Feather And Father Gang (something I hadn't heard of) seems to be the only series he did on a weekly basis during this era.

MTM Productions really loved to recycle actors.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention that Jane Rose showed up for an episode of Rhoda as one of Martin's acquaintances in Florida.

 

[Crimson]

Perhaps he was just one of those actors who didn't enjoy feeling tied to an ongoing project

He might just have been the Cloris Leachman (MTM-era) of RHODA -- a respected, very busy actor who occasionally made himself available for the show.

Either way, Gould was one of my favorite character actors; I always liked seeing him turn up in any project.

 

[Daniel Avery]

Gould's turn as Barney Gerber (Jodie's hospital roommate in S1 of Soap) is a favorite of mine. This multi-episode arc (where Jodie landed in the hospital after attempting suicide) featured Barney providing wise advice and occasional zingers--a "normal" character in a sea of wackiness. Barney was the one allowed to point out that Jodie, a suicidal homosexual who wanted to have a sex change operation, was nonetheless the sanest person in his family. This aired in the spring of 1977, so HG filmed it while also being attached to Rhoda.

Most people will likely recall him more as Miles, Rose's multi-season boyfriend on The Golden Girls.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Rhoda
Season Five
The Total Brenda / Earl’s Helping Hand / Brenda Runs Away



And it’s over. Rhoda has fizzled out with an unremarkable, if watchable, run of episodes. There’s little to say about these final ones really. The final episode ended with Brenda newly determined to marry Benny while Rhoda and Ida share a loving moment in their cinema seats. According to air date order, and based on Tommie’s findings, The Total Brenda may have been the final episode to be seen during its original run, and the sad thing about that is that barely twelve hours later I cannot even remember how it ended.

Of course, I now find myself wondering what we might have been given had the ending been telegraphed enough to wrap things up in the style of MTM. Given the season’s trajectory, I imagine it would have ended with Brenda’s wedding giving the opportunity to see some returnees gathering together.

As it was, I wasn’t so much left wanting more as fully accepting it was past time to say goodbye. There was certainly enough good stuff in Rhoda for me to feel it was worth a view, and there were phases where I felt very invested in the series and the story.

All in all, not bad, considering I had to be talked into watching the first couple of episodes.

Gould was one of my favorite character actors; I always liked seeing him turn up in any project.

Most people will likely recall him more as Miles, Rose's multi-season boyfriend on The Golden Girls.

It pains me a little to admit this, but for me the instant association with his name is Jack Geller on Friends. That series was - and continues to be - so popular and oft-repeated here that it's kind of hard to get away from. He was still as reliable as ever there.

 

[Crimson]

Brenda’s wedding giving the opportunity to see some returnees gathering together.

Perhaps the elephant not-in-the-room during the final two seasons of RHODA: why did Mary Richards never make an appearance? There was talk of it happening, and even a strong assumption that it would, but Mary herself was indifferent to the idea. Although she spent a period of time in bored semi-retirement immediately after the end of MTM, she probably knew further appearances as Mary would undermine the perfect end of her show.

Was Mary even referred to in the final two seasons of RHODA?

instant association with his name is Jack Geller on Friends

That was Elliot Gould.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Although she spent a period of time in bored semi-retirement immediately after the end of MTM, she probably knew further appearances as Mary would undermine the perfect end of her show.

Exactly this. When her character has been given a definitive and satisfying ending even a cameo would be likely to dilute that.

Was Mary even referred to in the final two seasons of RHODA?

I don't recall any mentions, and believe the closest we came was a passing reference or two to Rhoda having lived in Minneapolis. Certainly there was nothing in the way of letting us know anything that had happened in Mary's world after that ending.

That was Elliot Gould.

How mortifying.

Clearly I don't know my Haz from my Elliott.

 

[Crimson]

When her character has been given a definitive and satisfying ending even a cameo would be likely to dilute that.

As you said, if RHODA had a planned ending there might have been more pressure to get Mary to appear as Valerie had for the final MTM episode. While it would have been nice to see Mary again, I suspect it would have been unsatisfying or even detrimental to when we last saw her. Bigger surprise to me that RHODA, in its faltering years, never thought to bring in Cloris for an episode or two. Sure it would have taken some convoluted plotting to get Phyllis to NYC but the antagonistic chemistry between the two would have been worth the effort.

It's worth noting that none of the MTM spinoffs were given the chance for a proper send-off, so we have no idea what MTM Productions could have done in comparison to the famed MTM finale.

How mortifying.

I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse.

 

[Seaviewer]

MTM still managed to produce a pilot for Carlton: Your Doorman, a proposed animated spin-off for Carlton:

I'd forgotten all about that one, although I have an idea that it was broadcast here as a special.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Bigger surprise to me that RHODA, in its faltering years, never thought to bring in Cloris for an episode or two. Sure it would have taken some convoluted plotting to get Phyllis to NYC but the antagonistic chemistry between the two would have been worth the effort.

This hasn't occurred to me, but I can see that working. With Phyllis being based away from Minneapolis and being quite a self-involved character anyway it would have been very easy to simply take the appearance on face value without any expectation of filling in gaps when it comes to things best left to the viewers' imaginations.

It's worth noting that none of the MTM spinoffs were given the chance for a proper send-off, so we have no idea what MTM Productions could have done in comparison to the famed MTM finale.

I take it this includes Lou Grant, then? That's a shame.

I'd forgotten all about that one, although I have an idea that it was broadcast here as a special.

I watched this last night .

On Rhoda, Carlton was a character I found tolerable at best. Expectations were very low for a project with him as a title character. This was fortunate since it was very much an exercise in completion rather than something I enjoyed.

In favour of the episode, the animation style was pleasant enough to look at I also give the writers points for being bold enough to kill off a dog onscreen (though I kind of hated this as well). It's arguably nice that it kick started Lorenzo Music's voice acting career as well (even though it could be said that Rhoda did that anyway).

Sadly, it just felt surplus to requirements. Carlton's thing on Rhoda was being famously unseen (mostly). Even there I was unhappy when we saw any identifying features (I commented after his hand was seen that it had shattered my mental image of Carlton since I'd pictured him as black). In the animation, Carlton is front and centre, a skinny white man with long blonde hair and a moustache... none of which matched the image I'd mentally composited whilst watching Rhoda (in fact, the very last episode of Rhoda went out of its way to specify that he didn't have a moustache).

Compared with MTM, Rhoda and even Phyllis, this just lacked heart. Nothing felt meaningful. It was just a series of situations with no real character. And since it wasn't very funny, it really needed some heart.

Really, though, any episode of Rhoda where Carlton was featured more than usual became a little less enjoyable for me, so to it all comes down to familiarity breeding contempt.





Also, I watched the first two thirds of The Making Of The Mary Tyler Moore Show last night, which is serving as a definitive time capsule of the series' history for me, with input from all the main players - behind and in front of the cameras - who were still around at the time the documentary was made. It's been great to find out more background.

I hadn't realised how much attempted interference there was from the network, who didn't want James Brooks, Allan Burns or Ed Asner. It makes me feel very impressed that it made it to air with so much purity, and it seems several people put their necks on the chopping block to get it done. I'd say it's all in there, from Gavin Macleod reading for Lou but wanting Murray (which, as it turns out, is what the casting woman wanted too) to the disastrous test scene hastily shot with MTM and Ed Asner, in which Asner's performance was pitched and timed wrong and he nearly came to blows with Jay Sandrich.

My one complaint about the documentary is the constant soundtrack, with loud music that sounds quite malapropos playing over the dialogue. It's proved hugely distracting and means I haven't taken in as much information as I would if the music was more in-keeping and quieter. This was the main reason I had to stop after an hour.

Still, I'm looking forward to learning more in the remaining 30 minutes, as well as the other features in the DVD set.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

(which, as it turns out, is what the casting woman wanted too)

CBS' Ethel Winant -- she saved the show's ass. Or arse. ("Almost to her own detriment," Allan Burns asserted).

Most studio and network executives are apparently just how we picture them: there only for purposes of destruction and always obsessed with the wrong things. (Not Winant, of course).

 

[Crimson]

I take it this includes Lou Grant, then?

I've never seen LOU GRANT so I don't know if the final episode offers any conclusion, but the show was abruptly cancelled; so I suspect not. Asner had become politically outspoken for liberal causes during his years on MTM; an interesting development since he had started out, in the parlance of the day, as a male chauvinist. Asner always claimed LOU GRANT was cancelled due to his political activism, even if the network denied it. Since LOU GRANT was still a very solid hit at the time of cancellation, Asner was probably correct.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

CBS' Ethel Winant -- she saved the show's ass. Or arse. ("Almost to her own detriment," Allan Burns asserted).

That's the one. I couldn't remember her name and quick scan of the series' Wikipedia and IMDb pages didn't yield any gold.

Ethel was featured a fair bit in the documentary I watched, and still spoke very passionately about the series, which was lovely.

the show was abruptly cancelled; so I suspect not.

A definite pattern with the spinoffs, then.

Asner had become politically outspoken for liberal causes during his years on MTM; an interesting development since he had started out, in the parlance of the day, as a male chauvinist.

I don't know much about Asner as a person and haven't seen many interviews - if any - but the characters he plays often seem to have that undercurrent of chauvinism so it feels quite surprising on that level.

Asner always claimed LOU GRANT was cancelled due to his political activism, even if the network denied it. Since LOU GRANT was still a very solid hit at the time of cancellation, Asner was probably correct.

Interesting. Again, I find this surprising, but more because I think of Hollywood as leaning pretty far to the left. I suppose the pendulum does swing back and forth, though.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I don't know much about Asner as a person and haven't seen many interviews - if any - but the characters he plays often seem to have that undercurrent of chauvinism so it feels quite surprising on that level.

To my knowledge, Ted Knight was the only conservative in the cast (although the meaning of those terms tend to change over time). It created some tension between Asner and Knight.