Russia begins the invasion

Snarky Oracle!

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America wanted the war for profits. For American corporate profits. And "we" sabotaged any negotiations in order to achieve that goal.

Was Putin innocent in this? No. But the main culprit was, far and away, "us".
 

Laurie!

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Nobody has answered what to do for the Ukrainian people now. That's what I asked. If you shit the bed, you clean it up.

The US (for the most part per usual, though all of the west is complicit) is largely to blame in some aspects as you say (though Putin is sending the bombs and missiles slaughtering people and Ukraine is just targetting foreign soldiers within their borders only and weapons depots instead of innocent lives). But the US voters don't want US tax dollars spent on Ukraine trying to get out of this mess with the lives of it's people and it's sovereignty intact. How typical! Make the mess but don't want to clean it up...same reason why many NATO members don't like having to pay the same percent of GDP as the US for defense (the US is often the instigator in war mongering).

A peace deal only gives Putin what he wanted. Even if he gives up some land he originally wanted, he still wins if Ukraine cedes territory. So why the heck shouldn't we at this point be helping Ukraine keep their land and complete sovereignty? If Putin is rewarded with Ukrainian territory in a "peace deal", what will prevent him from attacking other nations to do the same?

I'm coming from the place where if you broke it, you pay to fix it. You don't slither away and just expect a peaceful resolution where the aggressor is rewarded while innocent people are dying. Then say, oh it's mostly our fault but we shouldn't help because helping makes us profit. Huh???
 
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Laurie!

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We'd all be better off if people realized that war is about pillaging and profit, not defense.
You're preaching to the choir here but a war is going on right now. Is it juste, to allow Putin to illegally attain Ukrainian land as a result of western meddling because the west profits from the war machine?

Does it make things right if you just take a hands off approach now and allow the slaughter of innocents to continue? Is it your place to demand a "peace deal" even if Ukraine loses land and its people want to fight for their freedom and land?

Imagine if France for example had penned a peace deal and prevented the US from leaving the British Commonwealth altogether because war is profiteering and you should just roll over and allow Britain to dictate the terms of your sovereignty and territory.

Imagine if France had to stop defending its territory and was forced to grant Hitler a portion of French land in a peace deal instead of going to war.
 
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Laurie!

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I would also add that...putting billionaire businessmen in charge of government oversight and as President...likely isn't the way to prevent these shenanigans/ interference for profit from happening in the future.
 

Frank Underwood

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There isn't a simple answer to your question because nobody involved cares about the Ukrainian people. They're sadly caught in a power play between the West and Russia.

Sending billions in weaponry to Ukraine will not "get them out of this mess." All it will do is keep the war going indefinitely, which is exactly what the West wants.

I don't like the idea of Putin or any ruthless leader being able to conquer another country's land, but indefinite wars are typically more costly in terms of money and bloodshed.

Billionaire businessmen are certainly part of the problem, but the majority of US politicians are sadly in bed with the military industrial complex.

Many US citizens are angry at their government for provoking this war, as well as using it as an opportunity to line their coffers. By the same token, they're also angry that they're forced to foot the bill. The US always has an abundance of money when it comes to funding wars, but they're always broke when it comes to helping people at home. The average American is sick of it. We're not heartless people who are indifferent to the suffering of Ukrainians, but it's by design that these wars are an endless money pit. As the saying goes, you've got to spend money to make (or steal) money. Similarly, the Iraq War was about stealing their oil (as Trump blurted out,) rather than "liberating" them.
 
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Laurie!

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There isn't a simple answer to your question because nobody involved cares about the Ukrainian people. They're sadly caught in a power play between the West and Russia.
I care about the Ukrainian people. The same as I care about innocent Palestinians being slaughtered by war hawk Netanyahu (kind of makes you wonder if he was the real architect of the Oct. 7th slaughter of his fellow citizens).

Essentially, I don't care what your nationality, race or religion is. If you're a good person, I care. As a result, I'm fine with a portion of my tax dollars preventing continued fatalities in other countries. I'm okay with spending more on grocery bills to do so. It seems like a very small sacrifice to make.
Sending billions in weaponry to Ukraine will not "get them out of this mess." All it will do is keep the war going indefinitely, which is exactly what the West wants.
Providing Ukraine with the long range weaponry from the start for self defense would have gone a long way in deterring Russian aggression. Instead, we tied their hands behind their backs and insisted they only strike within their own border.

Trying to get North Korean troops to defect to Ukraine would also be advantageous i.m.o.. If those poor troops see a chance for freedom in Ukraine, why would they want to go back to Russia/NK (Yes, perhaps family but it would be very tempting for them).
I don't like the idea of Putin or any ruthless leader being able to conquer another country's land, but indefinite wars are typically more costly in terms of money and bloodshed.
Would you feel that way if Putin eyes a return of Alaskan land.
Billionaire businessmen are certainly part of the problem, but the majority of US politicians are sadly in bed with the military industrial complex.
Yes, I foresee Trump being like Dick Cheney with Halliburton in Iraq. I'm sure his family is making deals for Gaza and Ukrainian land as we speak.
Many US citizens are angry at their government for provoking this war, as well as using it as an opportunity to line their coffers. By the same token, they're also angry that they're forced to foot the bill. The US always has an abundance of money when it comes to funding wars, but they're always broke when it comes to helping people at home. The average American is sick of it. We're not heartless people who are indifferent to the suffering of Ukrainians, but it's by design that these wars are an endless money pit. As the saying goes, you've got to spend money to make (or steal) money. Similarly, the Iraq War was about stealing their oil (as Trump blurted out,) rather than "liberating" them.
The vast majority of American networks don't say anything about American responsibility for provoking the war. They never do and therefore, I would surmise the majority of Americans don't know that. You usually only learn that stuff on the internet where reporters have written articles and corroborated with evidence...most mainstream media refuses to report it.

Of course Iraq was about oil. Much like Trump pulled back American troops to guard the oil wells and ignore the slaughter of innocents when Turkey slaughtered the Kurds who were U.S. allies. Most Americans don't know anything about that and if most cared, they wouldn't have reelected Trump.
 

Laurie!

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Boris Johnson was sent as an envoy by the United States to talk Zelensky out of negotiating with Putin. And now Boris openly admits that it's a proxy war.
Does that mean, we wash our hands of it and talk Ukraine into giving up land to Putin in a peace deal? Then, inevitably brag about being the one who saved the day and ended the war??

You see, both scenarios are corrupt in many ways. It's both advantageous to have personal interest in military supply companies and to negotiate a peace deal (there's always a reward). A quid pro quo.
 
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Snarky Oracle!

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Does that mean, we wash our hands of it and talk Ukraine into giving up land to Putin in a peace deal? Then, inevitably brag about being the one who saved the day and ended the war??

You see, both scenarios are corrupt in many ways. It's both advantageous to have personal interest in military supply companies and to negotiate a peace deal (there's always a reward).

How it happened matters. Why it's being maintained matters.
 

Frank Underwood

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I'm sure Trump cared more about the oil than the Kurds, but his opponent supported funding a genocide (as did Trump himself.) Where was the moral choice?

Like all wars, this conflict in Ukraine has been costly in both money and lives lost. Much of that could have likely been avoided if certain people hadn't stood to profit from it.

People are becoming increasingly disillusioned with mainstream media. Most people are online now, and it's easier than ever for them to learn what's really going on.

I care about innocent victims as well. When I said those involved don't care, I meant the ruthless and self-serving "leaders" that are responsible for the conflict.

The bottom line is the US instigates conflicts in order to pillage and assert their dominance. Engaging in a proxy war with a nuclear superpower doesn't sound wise to me.

The US uses the media to manufacture consent for the wars they provoke by pretending they're "coming to the rescue," but people are starting to see what's really going on.
 
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Laurie!

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I think the moral choice was giving someone who hasn't already been President and proven how corrupt they are a chance. What's done is done though.

I think you're being overly optimistic when you think Americans are seeing the truth. The Republicans won all 3 levels of government and it wasn't because they don't want corruption or illegal schemes for self gain...if they did, Trump wouldn't be their champion.

It's now considered "woke" to expect consequences for American misdeeds. The history books are to be white-washed with caucasian American heroism and text books are to preach Christianity.

Americans voted for Trump because they think he cares about their high prices and security....lmao. Talk about delusional.

DOGE...all hail King Trump
 
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Laurie!

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You can guarantee the west is playing Battleship and highly involved in the Syrian uprising now to weaken Russia.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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How it's resolved without anyone else dying or Ukraine giving up territory matters too.

Yes. And?

Americans voted for Trump because they think he cares about their high prices and security....lmao. Talk about delusional.

Many Americans who refused to vote for Trump in 2016 and 2020 did so in 2024 out of desperation.

Aside from his knuckleheaded hardcore fanbase, many of his voters in 2024 aren't delusionally optimistic. In fact, the overriding sentiment after his win last month -- including many Democrats that voted for him this time around -- was that they were: relieved but not happy.

They know he likely won't do anything for the working class, but the Democrat mess of the last few years (Kamala campaigned on nothing but "at least I'm not Trump" and woke identity issues) had to stop.

Will Trump fix things? It's hard to believe he will. Both parties are totally bought out by the same corporate donors
 

Frank Underwood

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@Laurie!:

Democrats are currently in power, and they've proven that they don't care about high prices or security either. Harris's tenure as prosecutor, along with her vow to continue funding Israel's genocide and the Ukraine War, was indicative of her own corruption IMO. Thinking Dems would have been any better than Trump is just as delusional to me. Many of the people who voted for Trump were desperate as Snarky rightly pointed out. They voted based on their current circumstances, which is understandable. The fact that Harris couldn't distinguish herself from Biden and was installed by DNC insiders instead of going through a primary didn't help either. The sad reality is that there wasn't a working-class champion or an anti-war candidate to vote for. Americans are screwed by two corrupt parties, so they're left to vote for the party that makes the best sales pitch.

Lastly, being woke isn't about opposing "American misdeeds." I believe most Americans (including myself) would love to see all war mongers locked up for life. Of course, we'd have no government if that happened. When people refer to "woke," they're talking about the overt pandering and virtue signaling to "oppressed and marginalized" people. Their identity is often weaponized to the point that they're treated like a protected class. For example, criticism of black and female politicians is automatically called racist and sexist respectively, even if the criticism is policy-based. Wokeism uses identity as a shield against all criticism, even if the criticism is valid. It's also used by corrupt institutions to manipulate people and play on their emotions. How do you make corporate greed and imperialism palatable? Encourage black, gay, and trans people to support it, of course!
 
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Laurie!

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Why are you explaining woke to me? I used it correctly. You don't think that removing white responsibility for slavery and such from text books is anti woke? You don't think that filling public schools and government institutions with Christianity instead of acknowleding different religions is anti woke?

The people Trump is nominating for key positions believe slavery was good for black people because it got them out of a shit hole country. He's selecting key authors of Project 2025 to fulfill their Christian dreams of making everyone Christian. He's nominating a guy for Defense who believes DEI and especially women don't belong in the military.
Wake up.
 
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Angela Channing

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Why are you explaining woke to me? I used it correctly. You don't think that removing white responsibility for slavery and such from text books is anti woke? You don't think that filling public schools and government institutions with Christianity instead of acknowleding different religions is anti woke?

The people Trump is nominating for key positions believe slavery was good for black people because it got them out of a shit hole country. He's selecting key authors of Project 2025 to fulfill their Christian dreams of making everyone Christian. He's nominating a guy for Defense who believes DEI and especially women don't belong in the military.
Wake up.
:gp:


Boris Johnson was sent as an envoy by the United States to talk Zelensky out of negotiating with Putin. And now Boris openly admits that it's a proxy war.
Neither of those things are true. Johnson is a clown but he didn't need the USA to dictate what the UK's foreign policy should be. Our idiot former Prime Minister never said it was a proxy war. However, it's true that if Putin gets away with taking over Ukraine, there will be a very real risk that he could go after other countries such as Poland which is in NATO. So, supporting Ukraine now is also a defensive strategy to protect NATO countries.
 
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Snarky Oracle!

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Neither of those things are true. Johnson is a clown but he didn't need the USA to dictate what the UK's foreign policy should be. Our idiot former Prime Minister never said it was a proxy war. However, it's true that if Putin gets away with taking over Ukraine, there will be a very real risk that he could go after other countries such as Poland which is in NATO. So, supporting Ukraine now is also a defensive strategy to protect NATO countries.

It would be nice if you knew something.

Boris Johnson actually says here at ~01:40, that "let's face it, we're waging a proxy war..." verbatim:

Boris Johnson ADMITS Ukraine Is A Proxy War!

Thanks for shopping K-Mart.
 

Angela Channing

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It would be nice if you knew something.

Boris Johnson actually says here at ~01:40, that "let's face it, we're waging a proxy war..." verbatim:

Boris Johnson ADMITS Ukraine Is A Proxy War!

Thanks for shopping K-Mart.
Well, I got that wrong! I don't know the context of those comments but that wasn't his view when he was Prime Minister and in charge of UK foreign policy. What he says now, as a completely discredited former politician, is mostly ridiculed and not taken seriously here in the UK which is probably why that interview has been mostly ignored by the UK media.
 

Snarky Oracle!

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Well, I got that wrong! I don't know the context of those comments but that wasn't his view when he was Prime Minister and in charge of UK foreign policy. What he says now, as a completely discredited former politician, is mostly ridiculed and not taken seriously here in the UK which is probably why that interview has been mostly ignored by the UK media.

You're right Boris Johnson is a discredited moron. And he's dumb enough to now say the quiet part out loud.

The interview has been ignored because it's too revealing.
 
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