Tyler Perry's The Haves and the Have Nots

Jason73

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Someday I'm going to go back in and finish this show. Now that I know there's an end in sight maybe it will motivate me to go back to it sooner. I always enjoy it. I just find I need breaks from time to time.
 

Jason73

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Season 5 has 44 episodes!! I think I've whined about this before. Anyways, I'm watching season 5 episode 6 now. The episode opened with sweaty Wyatt and sweaty Justin wrestling around on the floor, so that's a win for me.

Oh the scenes of circular conversations that go almost no where with dramatic music playing under it. I'm going to have re-wrap my head around this show's particular brand of pacing.

But where's Landon? I can't remember where I left off with him.
 

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The way TP (or maybe it's the OWN people) organized "seasons" of the series was (and continues to be) problematic. Since they aired these batches of episodes at irregular intervals, they sometimes slap a few batches together to call them a season, and at other times call one batch a compete season. When you look up material on the web, it seems every writer has a different idea of where one season ends and another begins. It certainly does not help when the better cliffhangers seem to occur at what they call "mid-season" rather than the close of a season (this recent changeover from S7 to S8 being a prime example). We've all been conditioned from other soaps to believe the "big" cliffhangers are season-enders.

If I had the opportunity to binge-watch the whole series again, I would have a bit of fun by documenting exactly how many days/weeks of these characters' lives the series covers. I have no firm proof, but I think (as of the most recent episode) Amanda has been dead less than six weeks, and the whole series covering about two months. I nearly fell off the couch when they depicted the passage of a full night in the most recent episode, with Hanna seen going home late, then a new scene with her at the Cryer mansion the next morning.
 

Brian Kinney

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I wonder if TP casts people like the new guy Samuel per DM at Instagram. I would. Because those lips, eyes, abs and hair...

Poor Leo - he's background decor for a few seasons now. But just as he's allowed to speak for the first time David scolds him like a schoolboy who's late.
 
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Daniel Avery

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It's been said that Aaron O'Connell got 'discovered' for the role of Wyatt thanks to a well-received role in a commercial:

TP's ill-advised Too Close to Home featured an Instagram model named Brock O'Hurn

The show was terrible (IMO) but oh, the eye candy.
 

Brian Kinney

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I didn't know that about Brock O'Hurn. But I remember the scene - lol...

I recall Aaron O'Connell's model career, he was very visible on magazine covers, ads, and in all important fashion shows in Milan and Paris maybe ten years ago. The TV advert I didn't know. Thanks for these cultural treasures! :)
 

Daniel Avery

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Of all the actors on HAHN, I feel sorriest for Aaron O'Connell. O'Connell has been there from the beginning of the series, but Wyatt has been repetitive and two-dimensional throughout most of it, never giving O'Connell a chance to show what else he can do as an actor. The only heir to the Hargraves/Cryer fortune should be a mover and shaker in his own right, not just wallowing in his own self-pity and self-destructive behavior. I can't imagine the actor enjoys playing the same material (with a few minor changes in location and dialogue) year after year, given how most of the rest of the cast gets to spread their wings and play such outrageous stuff.

On the plus side, however, at least it's a Tyler Perry soap, where suicidal, long-term heroin abusers still manage to still look like GQ models.
 

Brian Kinney

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I'm also wondering why Perry has a relative stable ensemble over all the years. No important re-castings and actors who were written out long ago off their unsatisfying roles turn up again (Celine), so he must be a fair boss. But yeah, if an actor feels like an artist (think of Shia LaBeouf) they better avoid his offers.

I think it's not just Aaron O'Connell who doesn't have a real chance to shine, but Tyler Lepley, Brett Davis, Brock Yurich, Nicholas James or Gavin Houston have all a bit more to show thanks to their interactions with more different characters than O'Connell who is either with his parents (where his acting is solid) or bit players who are cops, lawyers, drug dealers and hospital staff (where he tends to overact). This adds badly to the two-dimensionality.

And the real sad thing is HAHN has a convincing soap structure: Poor (Young) vs rich (Cryer, Harrington), white (Cryer) vs black (Harrington, Young), young (Candace, Wyatt, Jeffrey) vs old (Hannah, Jim, Veronica), establishment (Cryer, Harrington) vs golddigger (Candace) or mob (Malones). Soap friendly environments: hospital, justice, mansions, hotel (latter is a typical German soap location). Most of the actors are well cast even though it's often based on looks (a big plus for me because the reality is in my mirror and neighborhood).

Tyler Perry has all the ingredients, an independent production facility, the talent and lots of ideas... BUT he is unable to distribute work to others, directors, writers or co-producers. And this is diminishing the result. It starts with the terrible lightning and ends with scenes that needed more editing and much more camera angles. Really sad, we know of the potential the series had, this is why we still watch it but it's a weird guilty pleasure. One that is so self-shaming that I admit to it only in the anonymity online. I blame OWN for being too friendly and let him produce without any interference. Aaron Spelling didn't have so much freedom.
 
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tommie

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I'm also wondering why Perry has a relative stable ensemble over all the years. No important re-castings and actors who were written out long ago off their unsatisfying roles turn up again (Celine), so he must be a fair boss. But yeah, if an actor feels like an artist (think of Shia LaBeouf) they better avoid his offers.

I think it helps that he basically films entire seasons in like two-three weeks (!). So even if it's an intense schedule during that time, it doesn't take up much of the year so everyone gets a paycheck while they're also open to audition for any other roles they like. I can see why they don't bolt from it.
 

Daniel Avery

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I'm also wondering why Perry has a relative stable ensemble over all the years.

I have no way of knowing, but it might be something as simple as iron-clad, long-term (5-7 years) contracts. But with several of the HAHN actors being veterans of showbiz, I can't imagine them agreeing to be tied down that long---unless of course they had no idea the show would last as long as it has! But as @tommie says, the quick pace and long hiatuses might give them freedom to pursue other work that average series does not allow.
Tyler Lepley,
I think Benny Young is the "have-not" version of Wyatt, the other side of the same coin. He keeps bumbling into one serious mistake after another, never learns from those mistakes or grows as a character. Just as Wyatt is led around by drugs, Benny's led around by his libido. In the earliest episodes of the series they wrote him as the elder brother but obviously recognized his immaturity (compared to Candace's take-charge attitude) made it hard to sell him as the older brother. They quietly switched the birth order and never looked back, but this switch has allowed him to remain immature and annoying. In contrast, his pal Mitch (who started as a glorified extra) has seen his character grow and expand, and in my opinion become much more interesting than Benny ever has been.
BUT he is unable to distribute work to others, directors, writers or co-producers. And this is diminishing the result.
Oh, lord yes. We all know TP's inability or unwillingness to delegate is part of his "success story" but I wonder how much more successful this show could have been if he had conceded a few positions--like hiring a "breakdown writer," someone who would address the problems of pacing in the stories. TP could still be the one coming up with stories; there would just be a set of eyes on those ideas, spacing them out and timing the events of different stories to allow things to overlap more often.
 

Daniel Avery

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Having watched a few new episodes (including last night's episode) I notice they're embracing the idea of time progression within episodes. In the last two episodes they actually started in the daytime and ended the episode at night (or at least evening). This certainly is an improvement over previous seasons where one day would play out over six or seven episodes. I also noticed that they've changed the format somewhat. In years past they would feature all the principals in every episode, even if most of them only got one scene per episode. Since this season started, they're limiting the number of principal actors in each episode, but giving them more individual scenes. Oh, and they updated the opening sequence, but it's so "fast" you can't really get a feel for it. I did notice that Brett Davis and Brock Yurich have been bumped up to principal status, which is good.
 

Brian Kinney

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I noticed that too and liked it. My fave image is that of Katheryn with the ravens in the background :) - that would be so perfect for a vampire series!

The discussion Hannah, David and Jim had went from awkward to interesting in a few minutes. After all these years David and Jim talk about what is not appropriate? But this is probably an ugly reality in some friendships -at least older generations- that some important topics have been left out discussions.

My parents never talked with a long-time female friend about why she is single and never had a relationship known to them. To me it was obvious she was a lesbian - it was very ignorant of my parents.

Jim uses insulting racist and misogynistic language towards Hannah to trigger her. And this should be a much bigger deal for David. Nice touch that both Cryer men had to deal with strong women in the last episode. :cool:
 

Daniel Avery

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I don't think the Jim/Hanna/David stuff was as deep as you would like it to be. David's sudden dislike of Jim's un-PC attitude is a plot device. TP has been laying groundwork to put Hanna and David in a storyline together, and David's sudden attack of conscience was another means of making it appear to Hanna that David isn't as big a jerk as she thinks he is. Granted, he isn't that much of a jerk but as far as she knows, he's just like his best-bud Jim. Whether this effort to draw them together is for positive reasons (he ends up falling for her, or at least becomes her friend) or just another scam (he wants to help Jim get his hooks into Katheryn's money) has yet to be determined. But it's not totally out of left field.

In the previous season, Veronica was having an erotic dream of her and David in bed, and at an important moment David inexplicably blurted out to Veronica that he was in love with Hanna. Her WTF? reaction snapped her out of the dream (as well as the audience!). It was not very subtle (but when is TP subtle?) but indicated that the show wanted to go in that direction, and in several instances since, they've had D&H interact. It would be easy to think that David's sudden interest in talking to Hanna has to do with Katheryn's fortune, but he was being nice to her (or at least civil) before she took Power of Attorney. My main concern from the beginning was that Veronica will not be pleased (to say the least) if she were to discover that her dream is prophetic. We've seen what Veronica does to women she thinks are after David (Maggie, Erica) and frankly I'm not in the mood for Veronica to add yet another target to her Santa's list of targets.
 

Brian Kinney

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I didn't see Veronica's dream as foreshadowing something about David and Hanna. Only that Veronica obviously thinks that Hanna is a woman she shouldn't underestimate. But now that David is trying to hustle I just hope Hanna can't be gaslighted. Since Hanna forgave Candace her appearance has changed. The way she handled the accountants, David and Jim is badass. It would be a special joy for me if Hanna is somehow able to get even with Veronica just for Melissa's suicide where she witnessed the bitch's glee. That visibly shocked her more than Benny's affair.

Since Wyatt becomes even more smug than ever in the hospital I want to see him dead too. There are obviously no more stories to tell with him and HAHN's jail scenes are terribly lit. I know that sexual abuse has terrible consequences for the victim's life. This is close to me and I tend to defend the wrongdoings because of that. But Wyatt taunting Celine is a new low and it's different to the times where she was the housekeeper. Because then his arrogance towards her was justified - you don't have to act nice if the lover of your dad hangs around your home. By now Wyatt knows she has adult sons and that this woman somehow managed to do it as a single parent with no help. We also know that Celine liked Wyatt when he was a child and he liked her too when she wasn't just a housekeeper to her. So they have a past and she acted if I remember talks from Season 1 correctly as a mother replacement for a certain time because Katheryn wasn't able to give warmth. Treating Celine like trash in the hospital is brutal and without any current motivation. I don't care much about Celine but she doesn't deserve to be the doormat for others. Right now Celine is probably the only real Have Not on the show who struggles with every day's cost of living (while Justin who hasn't earned money for a few seasons is still doing okay - aside of domestic violence and monthly suicide attempts of course).

Since Jeffrey and Wyatt's friendship officially ended a few episodes ago could this be the beginning of a new bromance ?

Landon: "I was this close to screwing a Malone."
Mitch : "No, you weren't."

Why is Landon again day-dreaming about an impossible target? Mitch Malone being the most convincing of the straight machos because he is so cool self-assured. Landon has probably a better chance with the President. I will miss the gayest soap-opera ever if it's over.

'TV Line' singled out Colby in 'Year in Review: 24 Scene Stealers' (he's the only soap performer mentioned):

Talk about making a splash! In just a half-season of the OWN soap, Matt Mercurio’s mischievous rent boy opened a well-deserved can of whupass on Justin’s homophobic brother, gave not as good but better than he got from queen of mean Veronica and threw a pool party that was so hilariously ill-advised, it ended in gunfire.

 

Daniel Avery

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The way the scene between the two Malones was set up, it looked like Vinny (?) believed Mitch and Benny were...um, more than friends. If he had seen that odd interaction between Mitch and Landon, he would have been even more convinced. It was funny, of course, but I'm not sure what else the scene accomplished.

This woman that Katheryn met in prison...am I over-analyzing by theorizing that her kids' father (the one she's so scared of, the one who got her tossed in jail) might be Tanner Lewis? There has to be more to him than just dropping by to rough up Justin every few days.

I'd be very disappointed if David did not end up leaving Hanna's house with his tail between his legs, humiliated by Hanna in the next episode. She's getting very good at setting up these jerks and then having the last word. And as for Veronica's loan/mortgage/whatever, can you imagine what she'd be like if she lost her fortune? No money to pay off goons to do her bidding. She'd have to clean her own house. I shudder to think.

The block filming of scenes is becoming distracting to me. Veronica rarely leaves her house. Justin doesn't leave his apartment. Jeffery rarely leaves Madison's apartment. Candace and Benny rarely leave that hotel room. Katheryn...well, obviously. Jim has settled into the mansion to do all his scenes, and Wyatt's in that hospital room. There used to be so much more outdoor/exterior work. It's all a bit claustrophobic. The only characters who get to go places (or at least switch sets) are basically Hanna and David, and occasionally Mitch.
 

Brian Kinney

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The way the scene between the two Malones was set up, it looked like Vinny (?) believed Mitch and Benny were...um, more than friends. If he had seen that odd interaction between Mitch and Landon, he would have been even more convinced. It was funny, of course, but I'm not sure what else the scene accomplished.
Tyler Perry's scenes between males are often very different to what we usually see in other shows. There is a lot of masculine toxity, violence but also a camaraderie going on between friends and work colleagues (e.g. accountants). What that means I don't know. It doesn't add value to the stories but at least Perry spares us any typical male TV stereotypes. There isn't a single male hero on HAHN. Some men are less tainted than others (Jeffrey and David) but still not above killing someone else if given the opportunity... And Hanna who can be often very self-righteous is so far the only female part that is a hero but not too stereotypical either. Her obsession with faith which unnerved me in the first two or three seasons has a relatable origin (she became religious after the rape). So despite all criticisms for HAHN I think Perry's writing for male/female interaction is original. Only problem as you mentioned: it's just talk.

This woman that Katheryn met in prison...am I over-analyzing by theorizing that her kids' father (the one she's so scared of, the one who got her tossed in jail) might be Tanner Lewis? There has to be more to him than just dropping by to rough up Justin every few days.
That's a possible connection I missed. But is Tanner influential enough to do that? But yes, why should a new character turn up and not be connected to anyone else? Maybe the show had so many escorts from the start on that I automatically think any new character is a sex worker and the desperate young woman knew Candace or her co-workers. BTW: Veronica's side toyboy who gave Justin a message and was Katheryn's "personal trainer" also gives the impression he is more than a trainer or am I over-analysing this :) ?

Evidence exhibit:
hixli6c7.jpg

Katheryn's trainer and Veronica's Oddjob Marco: Thomas Canestraro
(photo with dog Maddox :cool: by Mike Ruiz)

And as for Veronica's loan/mortgage/whatever, can you imagine what she'd be like if she lost her fortune? No money to pay off goons to do her bidding. She'd have to clean her own house. I shudder to think.
Poetic justice! Would be even better if by some circumstances Celine gets a large chunk of the Cryer's money and buys Veronica's house to have her clean there!

It's all a bit claustrophobic. The only characters who get to go places (or at least switch sets) are basically Hanna and David, and occasionally Mitch.

The Malones have the Iron Bone. So even in Covid times (even though not addressed) they still can meet there and don't break the law because they're actually one household... I assume they separated the sets and actors as they did to minimize the risk if someone gets infected. When that happens it doesn't affect many other stories. But maybe I'm giving them too much credit for it and it's just another creative slump.
 
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Brian Kinney

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OWN’s long-running Tyler Perry drama The Haves and the Have Nots will ending its 196-episode run at the end of its current eighth season. The final batch of episodes will return in May following tonight’s midseason finale. The Haves and the Have Nots is the last Tyler Perry series on OWN under Perry’s deal, which ended in March 2019 when he moved to ViacomCBS and started creating and and producing shows for BET and BET+.

So with the mid-season finale I think we can expect that hot nurse Madison will care for the next burned victim and hopefully that includes a lot of man-to-man healing. I don't have high hopes how Perry ends the stories in the final eight episodes.
 

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Gallows humor of the day: Poor Justin...a big ol' flamer right up to the end.

I have mixed feelings on the announcement of the end of the series. Obviously it has had a good run and the writing was on the wall when Tyler Perry signed that deal with Viacom. Still, I don't see him crafting a satisfying conclusion for the series in eight relatively short episodes. There are a lot of plot points that don't seem to be headed to a logical conclusion. It's as if they were writing these stories/scenes unsure if they were going to actually end it at eight seasons, but now that the ax has fallen, there will be a rush to come up with quickie plot resolutions. I saw hints dropped about ways certain stories might get resolved, but such resolutions would have been time-consuming (that is, drawn out over time and not something that can be done in one scene) and time is the one thing they no longer have.
 

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So I was bored at work today and my mind wandered to this show's ending. To say "no one is safe" is an understatement, given how these characters live on the edge all the time as it is. Now that the cancellation ax is being sharpened, I couldn't help but imagine ways to wrap up loose plot points. Picture this:

Jim, desperate to get his hands on Kathryn's money, decides to manipulate Celine into doing his dirty work. He convinces her that he wants her back, that only Hannah and Kathryn stand in the way of him claiming the family fortune. He would stand to inherit everything, and they could reunite and sail off into the sunset. He even pretends he wants to be a father to her/their two sons. What he doesn't realize is that Celine is even more unbalanced than he thinks. She goes to Wyatt's hospital room and tells him all about how her plan is finally falling into place: she wants her sons to get their rightful inheritance. She confesses she killed Amanda and made it look like suicide, and now she planned to get rid of the other heir to the fortune. She kills Wyatt with an injection of drugs, making it look like an overdose.

News is spreading that Kathryn got out on bail. At the mansion, Hannah is in the living room, organizing paperwork while Kathryn is taking a long, glorious bath upstairs to wash off all those prison cooties. Kathryn hears the doorbell but assumes Hannah will answer it. It's.....Benny, who wants to argue some more with Hannah about the $8 million. As they argue, we see a shadowy figure approaching Kathryn from behind as she soaks in the tub. Celine springs up out of nowhere brandishing a gun, but when she attempts to shoot Hannah, Benny steps in front of her and takes the bullet. Kathryn hears the gunshot and leaps from the tub. Hannah is wailing over her dead son, and Celine tries to flee the scene--only to be confronted by Kathryn holding a gun on her. Torn between rushing to aid Hannah/Benny and holding the gun on Celine, she doesn't notice Jim sneak up behind her (he's been hiding in the house). He snatches the gun from Kathryn's hands, but Celine's delight soon turns to horror when he uses it to shoot Celine. He then tosses Kathryn down the stairs. Hannah screams in horror as dead Kathryn basically lands at her feet, eyes wide open. Hannah can only close her eyes to pray as Jim aims the gun at her. He then laments the fact that Celine was such a screw-up that she couldn't even shoot the right people. As if in response to her name, Celine raises her head and then shoots Jim in the back, proving him wrong in that regard. She then dies, and Hannah is left wondering "Who's gonna clean up this mess?"

(Okay, maybe not that last part)

Now I have to imagine who to kill off Veronica, which is tough because...how do you kill pure evil?
 
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