Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

[Daniel Avery]

What in the name of St. Olaf....?

This change has particularly made me realise how well Mary Sue is stepping into Phyllis’s shoes. Coming in and criticising Mary’s decor or housekeeping skills was previously Phyllis’s forte so Mary Sue doing this feels very comfortable and familiar. It helps that Betty White excels at comic passive-aggression, so these are some of the moments I’ve enjoyed most.

I know you mean Sue Ann, and in most cases I'd let such a thing slide. But in this case....um, no, I can't. She's a legend!

 

[Mel O'Drama]

What in the name of St. Olaf....?
I know you mean Sue Ann, and in most cases I'd let such a thing slide. But in this case....um, no, I can't. She's a legend!

Oh yipes. What a faux pas.

And that look is turning me to stone, so to quote Sue Ann herself:

I want to be cremated and have my ashes thrown on Robert Redford.

 

[Crimson]

In good news, taking a month-long break from MTM has increased my enjoyment of that series. I still feel it’s past its best at this point, and there’s not a whole lot of new ground. Crucially, though, the series can still be relied on to entertain, which is its primary function.

I'm glad you found yourself back to enjoying the series. I don't think the show was ever the same after the loss of Phyllis and Rhoda, but I think it remains enjoyable throughout with some great moments along the way. "Ted Baxter’s Famous Broadcasters’ School" is a strong contender for my favorite episode of the series.

I do, however, start to develop more mixed feelings in the last two seasons; there are even a few episodes I skip during my re-watches.

It was a bit of a surprise to come back to the series with fresh eyes and suddenly realise I don’t find Murray very likeable. At this point, his main function seems to be making bitchy put-downs about/towards Ted. Earlier on I felt there was more balance: Murray frequently found Ted frustrating but there was also a kind of fondness there.

I don't think the writers ever quite figured out what to do with Murray. (The character was originally conceived as Mary's office nemesis, but Gavin MacLeod was too likeable in his audition so the character was changed.) Murray had two functions: to build up Mary and to undercut Ted's pomposities. As Mary became more assertive, Murry was needed less often in the former role which left only zinging Ted and later Sue Ann.

The mid-70s was also the start of the Comedy of Cruelty era of American sitcoms, with humor mostly centered around characters insulting other characters. I wasn't a fan. MTM wasn't as excessive as other shows of the era, but is also a guide of both how and how not to do it. Murray's zingers aimed at Sue Ann were funny, because she was a malicious character who deserved to be zinged. Also, she could give as good as she got. Ted might have been pompous and dim-witted, but he was rarely mean-spirited. The way Murray, and especially Lou, treated Ted was sometimes too much.

There are further developments -- good and bad -- in the next two seasons, which I will hold off on commenting about.

 

[Jimmy Todd]

That's an interesting comment about the "Comedy of Cruelty." Are there other examples from the 1970s?

 

[Daniel Avery]

I'd always referred to that style as "insult humor" or "putdown comedy". Shows like The Jeffersons seemed to excel at it and create their "niche" by having characters constantly insult one another. George would insult the neighbors, the doorman and his housekeeper, while everyone would insult him back (even Louise, occasionally). Benson, another sitcom spin-off trying to develop its own identity, featured the lead character making cracks about the various characters he was surrounded by, but their equally-insulting replies weren't as strong since Benson was the main character/star.

Others that immediately pop to mind that seemed reliant on insult comedy include Sanford and Son; Married with Children (though that's more 1980s, it came from the same producers of The Jeffersons); Alice; and Good Times.

 

[Crimson]

SANFORD & SON is the most obvious and egregious. I think like 90% of that show's humor was Fred insulting people. And just like on MTM, I think sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. Fred and Esther exchanging insults was funny because they were equals, but all too often it was just Redd Foxx brutalizing some poor actor over their physical appearance. I recall sweet Nancy Kulp having to just stand there and smile as she was repeatedly called "ugly".

 

[Crimson]

RIP John Amos, one of the last recurring actors from MTM.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

I do, however, start to develop more mixed feelings in the last two seasons; there are even a few episodes I skip during my re-watches.

Thanks for the warning. I'll brace myself for a possible further dip when I begin the next season.

Murray had two functions: to build up Mary and to undercut Ted's pomposities. As Mary became more assertive, Murry was needed less often in the former role

This goes some way to explaining why it's become more noticeable at this point. The Mary/Murray relationship has switched if anything, with Mary sometimes supporting Murray through some crisis or self-doubt, so the fact that he gets unconditional support while everyone seems barely able to tolerate Ted (who, as you said, was not a mean-spirited character) seems to somehow reinforce Murray's treatment of Ted.

The mid-70s was also the start of the Comedy of Cruelty era of American sitcoms, with humor mostly centered around characters insulting other characters.

As you know, I regularly dip into a lot of TV from the era. Mostly British sitcoms, but there is certainly that element there and as a result I probably have a reasonable threshold for it in general.

SANFORD & SON is the most obvious and egregious. I think like 90% of that show's humor was Fred insulting people.

I wonder if British comedy was responsible for the Comedy Of Cruelty wave. American adaptions of British sitcoms seemed to be a big thing around this time.

RIP John Amos, one of the last recurring actors from MTM.

This would not have registered with me at all had I not watched John in both Maude and MTM in recent months. Both great characters, and very different from each other.

And I need to watch Roots one of these days (it's only been on my bucket list for something like four decades).

 

[Crimson]

I'll brace myself for a possible further dip when I begin the next season.

For what it's worth, I don't regard it has a dip in quality. One of the episodes I skip is what's regarded as the series' best episode and often considered one of the best American sitcom episodes of all time. I just don't care for it; or, perhaps, just find it overrated.

By season six, we'll come full circle in the discussion. I think what intrigued you to watch MTM was comments about this being a rare American sitcom to evolve. By the last two seasons, those changes are in place. Characters, relationships and situations aren't the same as they were in the beginning. These changes are organic and logical, but they also changed so much of what I loved about the early seasons. Change is a double edged sword!

so the fact that he gets unconditional support while everyone seems barely able to tolerate Ted (who, as you said, was not a mean-spirited character) seems to somehow reinforce Murray's treatment of Ted.

I just passed a season six episode with a detail I had not really noticed previously. Ted likes Murray's teasing; a nice touch by the writers to keep that relationship pleasant.

I wonder if British comedy was responsible for the Comedy Of Cruelty wave. American adaptions of British sitcoms seemed to be a big thing around this time.

I'm not well versed in British sitcoms, but in broad strokes that seems to be the case. "Realism", insults, and sauciness all seemed to make their way into American TV by way of British inspiration.

This would not have registered with me

Other than Ted Knight, who passed away in the 80s, the MTM cast was remarkably long lived. It's only in the last 10 years or so that the rest have passed on. At this point, only Joyce Bulifant (Marie) and Lisa Gerritsen (Bess) are still with us.

 

[AndyB2008]

RIP John Amos, one of the last recurring actors from MTM.


View attachment 54494

He also had a small role on Die Hard 2 as Major Grant, the head of the US Special Forces unit who in a later twist is revealed to be in league with William Sadler's character.

 

[TaranofPrydain]

He also had a small role on Die Hard 2 as Major Grant, the head of the US Special Forces unit who in a later twist is revealed to be in league with William Sadler's character.

I remember that twist. I am normally not someone who is,shovked by much in films, have seen a lot over the years but that threw me for a loop.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

RIP John Amos, one of the last recurring actors from MTM.


View attachment 54494

John Amos was a good actor. Good Times was never quite as good without him

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Rhoda
Season Two
Somebody Down There Likes Him / Call Me Grandma / Myrna’s Story / Love Songs Of J. Nicholas Lobo / Friends And Mothers / A Night With The Girls / Bump In The Night / If You Don’t Tell Her, I Will / Rhoda’s Sellout / Attack On Mr Right / If You Want To Shoot The Rapids You Have To Get Wet / The Return Of Billy Glass / A Federal Case / The Marty Morgan Story / Let’s Call It Love / It’s Not My Fault, Is It? / Don’t Give Up The Office



Based on earlier comments and knowing something of the changes in Season Three, I feel this could be the last thoroughly enjoyable Rhoda season. Mind you, I felt that could be the case once Rhoda married and moved in with Joe, so it’s at least possible that I’m wrong. I hope I am.

Season Two has been a good one for me, as evidenced by the fact that I’ve watched the entire season straight through without considering mixing it up with episodes from contemporaneous seasons of MTM or Phyllis for some variety.

The ensemble has continued to work well for me this season. I feel they complement one another well. I appreciated the episodes that gave focus to Martin: firstly his anxieties when an old friend who dated Ida returned and then his mid-life crisis. Harold Gould is a nice actor, subtle by the standards of those around him, and it’s nice to see him being serviced. The “piano man” episode even gave some touching moments thanks to his delivery. Julie Kavner’s always reliable as well, and I’ve also continued to enjoy Ida.

The guest-actors have all helped keep interest, even if they’re mostly unknown to me. My goodness - Denise Galik looks very much like a proto Alicia Silverstone (I had to look up to see if they were related, but found nothing to suggest they are). I’ve never watched I Love Lucy, but Vivian Vance is associated with sitcom royalty by that virtue, so this felt like a bit of a coup. Interesting, too, that Fred and Ethel were name-checked a few episodes later.

I realise marriage has somewhat changed Rhoda’s character from the one we knew on MTM but the energy between Valerie Harper and David Groh is so good I’ve thoroughly enjoyed these seasons. I’m curious to see what the Season Three shakeup brings, but equally I don’t feel any sense of urgency to dive in. Just as well since I have a year’s worth each of MTM and Phyllis to watch before then.

Incidentally, something that’s occurred to me this morning is that the parent series at this point has become rather homogenised, with pretty much the entire ensemble of characters consisting of WASPs. Earlier on MTM had some diversity with Gordy and Rhoda herself. It’s already been said here that these things just were, so it’s not necessarily a problem that they now aren’t. But it seems a little unusual (certainly by today’s standards) that a series becomes less culturally diverse as it evolves. But, as has been said, at least it does evolve, so perhaps that's enough.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

One of the episodes I skip is what's regarded as the series' best episode and often considered one of the best American sitcom episodes of all time. I just don't care for it; or, perhaps, just find it overrated.

Oh, that's intriguing. Do I need any hints, or will I know it when I see it. I'm a bit worried I'll overlook it and fail in my MTM fandom bid.

I think what intrigued you to watch MTM was comments about this being a rare American sitcom to evolve. By the last two seasons, those changes are in place. Characters, relationships and situations aren't the same as they were in the beginning. These changes are organic and logical, but they also changed so much of what I loved about the early seasons. Change is a double edged sword!

As with the changes coming up on Rhoda, I'm curious to see what shape these changes take, and if they'll affect my enjoyment of the series either way. Part of me feels MTM needs a bit of a shakeup at this point, but I know to be careful what I wish for... especially since I completely agree about it being a double-edged sword.

I just passed a season six episode with a detail I had not really noticed previously. Ted likes Murray's teasing; a nice touch by the writers to keep that relationship pleasant.

I'll be on the lookout for that one, and hoping it elevates Murray back up a little in my estimation.

 

[Soaplover]

I remember Valerie Harper had stated that the original version of Rhoda that spanned from season 1 into season 3 could be compared to Mad About You... and I think the original reason for the season 3 change was because the writers didn't know how to write a happily married Rhoda.

Obviously the writers had never seen a married person.. because being neurotic and/or insecure doesn't just vanish once you get married.

 

[Crimson]

I’ve never watched I Love Lucy, but Vivian Vance is associated with sitcom royalty by that virtue, so this felt like a bit of a coup

I imagine there was intention with that casting choice. Vivian had been the sitcom princess of the 50s and 60s, supporting Lucy; Valerie took over in that role in the 70s, supporting that decade's new sitcom queen. Unlike Valerie, though, Vivian never found her own solo stardom.

But it seems a little unusual (certainly by today’s standards) that a series becomes less culturally diverse as it evolves.

I think it was a combination of wanting to avoid Norman Lear territory -- and just dodge even the slightest question of race -- and, after Sue Ann, the producers never committed to a new ongoing character.

Oh, that's intriguing. Do I need any hints

and I think the original reason for the season 3 change was because the writers didn't know how to write a happily married Rhoda.

The writers were also hampered by evolving mores of TV by the mid-70s. There had been a strong pushback among social conservatives against the bold topics of the early 70s TV; the RHODA writers felt they were limited in honestly addressing matters of marriage and sex. They just didn't seem to know how to write the marriage from any perspective.

 

[Soaplover]

The writers were also hampered by evolving mores of TV by the mid-70s. There had been a strong pushback among social conservatives against the bold topics of the early 70s TV; the RHODA writers felt they were limited in honestly addressing matters of marriage and sex. They just didn't seem to know how to write the marriage from any perspective.

Rhoda was a step-mother, new wife, had an ex wife to deal with... plus you had mother as an interfering mother in law and step grandmother. So there was a lot of avenues the writers could have explored with Rhoda and Joe that they seemed unwilling to do.

By season 4, the show seems like 'Mary Tyler Moore in New York City' instead of a show with it's own identity.

Phyllis, on the other hand, had limited avenues to explore in the concept created for her spin off. Although in the three episodes that the late Barbara C had filmed as Julie... I sensed a good on screen chemistry between her and Cloris that sadly never got to be explored as boss and employee, plus both previously having shared Lars.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

The writers were also hampered by evolving mores of TV by the mid-70s. There had been a strong pushback among social conservatives against the bold topics of the early 70s TV; the RHODA writers felt they were limited in honestly addressing matters of marriage and sex.

It's good to get this context.

I was aware that censorship became stricter around this time when it came to violence (as reflected in the Wonder Woman series, which began with her throwing punches and blowing up manned ships, and ended with her her opponents either falling into empty cardboard boxes or hypnotised by her gymnastic skills), so I suppose it's natural this would extend to sex as well.

Certainly at the point I've reached, I've appreciated that signs point to Rhoda and Joe enjoying a healthy sex life. One of the last episodes of Season Two had them both taking time off work to spend a few days' quality time in their apartment. Other episodes have shown them to be visibly frustrated when Brenda staying has interfered with their spontaneous sex life.

Rhoda was a step-mother, new wife, had an ex wife to deal with... plus you had mother as an interfering mother in law and step grandmother. So there was a lot of avenues the writers could have explored with Rhoda and Joe that they seemed unwilling to do.

I've enjoyed all these elements being present throughout Season Two. To me it feels like a sitcom that's working, and with potential for further gold to be mined, so the changes ahead aren't thrilling me at this point.

By season 4, the show seems like 'Mary Tyler Moore in New York City' instead of a show with it's own identity.

That's a shame. Watching recently, it's felt a little like Knots Landing to MTM's Dallas, and I was looking forward to seeing it continue to carve its own identity.

Aha!

I see that episode is one of only two from the entire series that has its own hyperlink on Wikipedia's list of episodes. I won't click through until after watching, but it's a little exciting to know that the two episodes that seem to be viewed as among the most important are still to come.

 

[Crimson]

So there was a lot of avenues the writers could have explored with Rhoda and Joe that they seemed unwilling to do.

I've enjoyed all these elements being present throughout Season Two. To me it feels like a sitcom that's working, and with potential for further gold to be mined, so the changes ahead aren't thrilling me at this point.

Every postmortem on RHODA reaches the same conclusion: the producers and writers were bored and dissatisfied with the premise of their own show; one writer even said they were bored with the show before the audience. That dissatisfaction may have been rooted in the network dictate to marry Rhoda and Joe almost immediately, rather than allowing the relationship to develop organically.

Alternately, I wonder if they ever would have allowed Joe and Rhoda to develop if left to their own; the MTM producers were consistently skittish about committing Mary to a relationship and it's possible that would have carried over to RHODA.

 

[Seaviewer]

Alternately, I wonder if they ever would have allowed Joe and Rhoda to develop if left to their own; the MTM producers were consistently skittish about committing Mary to a relationship and it's possible that would have carried over to RHODA.

I read somewhere that the character played by Ted Bessell in two episodes of MTM was supposed to become a regular but the plans fell through when he became unavailable for some reason. I remember a phone conversation with Mary telling Rhoda about him and remarking on the coincidence that they had both found men named Joe.