Mary Tyler Moore Show and Its Spin-Offs

[Jock Ewing Fan]

How does apply to the VALERIE situation.?

She won the suit with Lorimar-Telepictures and she should have. They were disregarding er contract.

It applies because it is an example of a supporting character who does not work well as a lead, and a good supporting actress who does not work well as a lead.
VH was resistant to a change in the show that would have benefited everyone.
So what, she won her claim, the show went on without her, and was probably better IMHO
Other people have commented on MTM actor/actresses other work as well, on this thread

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

VH was resistant to a change in the show that would have benefited everyone.

What change was she resistant to that would have benefited everyone on VALERIE?

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

What change was she resistant to that would have benefited everyone on VALERIE?

Read the history of the show. Ratings increased after Sandy Duncan and Josh Taylor arrived

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Read the history of the show. Ratings increased after Sandy Duncan and Josh Taylor arrived

You didn't answer the question: what changes to VALERIE did Harper resist?

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

You didn't answer the question: what changes to VALERIE did Harper resist?

The focus of the show changed, a la Happy Days, Good Times,Family Ties, Dallas, Knots Landing, Mom, Melrose Place, Family Matters etc.
VH was no longer the major solo focus. Ratings had sunk. The ratings improved significantly after she left.

 

[Daniel Avery]

I recall Nanette Fabray also played Ann Romano's meddlesome mother on One Day At A Time in the mid-late 1970s, so I guess she had developed a niche characterization by that time.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

I recall Nanette Fabray also played Ann Romano's meddlesome mother on One Day At A Time in the mid-late 1970s, so I guess she had developed a niche characterization by that time.

Like Rosemary DeCamp.

 

[Daniel Avery]

Due to the evil algorithms following me about, this popped up on my screen just now, where Nanette Fabray discusses her short tenure on MTM and her ideas as to why it was so short:

 

[Crimson]

Nanette recounting Mary telling her that she had "no idea" why she wasn't asked back, which Nanette may have taken as evasion on the part of Mary's answer, tracks with Mary's involvement with her own show. Mary was no Lucille Ball, who commanded her set and was technically proficient with everything from lighting to cameras to editing. Despite being the star of the show and co-owner of the production company, Mary had little involvement beyond acting. There's a real good chance Mary really had no idea why Nanette wasn't asked back.

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

2002 documentary about the making of MARY TYLER MOORE (which was on the Season 1 DVDs):

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

2001 TVLand doc:

 

[Seaviewer]

Well, then I have had another brutal false memory syndrome episode, because I was convinced they called her "Brenda."

Oh, many's the time I was absolutely convinced that something had happened on a particular show only to rewatch and find that I was completely wrong.

I found Sandy Duncan far more likeable.

I like Sandy Duncan but the dynamic of the show completely changed without the mother-son relationship between Valerie and David, and not for the better IMHO.

 

[DallasFanForever]

I like Sandy Duncan but the dynamic of the show completely changed without the mother-son relationship between Valerie and David, and not for the better IMHO

Their relationship drove the show. Without her around it never felt the same for me. I liked Sandy as well but it felt like a completely different show without Valerie.

 

[Crimson]

It seemed to be implied above that VALERIE'S FAMILY's ratings increased due to Sandy Duncan. That is not correct. The show's ratings increased because it was moved to a new night, with a stronger lead-in. For the first season and half-ish, the show aired on Sunday and had middling ratings. Towards the end of the second season, when Valerie was still the star, it was moved to Mondays after ALF. Its ratings increased significantly. That's what emboldened Valerie to ask for a salary increase, which I doubt she would have done if the show's ratings had remained low under her. If the ratings increased further without Valerie, it was probably a lot of curiosity factor about the backstage drama in much the way the ratings of DESIGNING WOMEN increased the season after Delta Burke was fired.

 

[Jock Ewing Fan]

I recall Nanette Fabray also played Ann Romano's meddlesome mother on One Day At A Time in the mid-late 1970s, so I guess she had developed a niche characterization by that time.

I remember that. Nanette Fabray was quite good in that recurring role. Interestingly, her niece, Shelley Fabares, played Francine,
Anne's rival on the show. Nannette Fabray also played the mother of Shelley Fabray's character (Christine Armstrong)
on "Coach" (which I was my favorite sports themed sitcom)
More importantly, a great lady who did wonderful work on behalf of the hearing impaired

From Wikipedia:

A longtime champion of hearing awareness and support of the deaf, she sat on boards and spoke at many related functions. A forward-thinking proponent of total communication and teaching the deaf language and communication in any way possible, including American Sign Language and not just the oralism method of the time, Fabray was one of, if not the first, to use sign language on [live] television,[14] something which she continued to showcase on many programs on which she made appearances, including the Carol Burnett Show, Match Game '73, and I've Got a Secret. She even contributed the story line to an entire 1982 episode[citation needed] of One Day at a Time, which focused on hearing loss awareness and acceptance, treatment options, and sign language. Fabray appeared in a 1986 infomercial for hearing device and deafness support products for House Ear Institute.[15] In 2001, she wrote to advice columnist Dear Abby to decry the loud background music played on television programs.[16] A founding member of the National Captioning Institute,[1] she also was one of the first big names[17] to bring awareness to the need for media closed-captioning.[18]

Likewise, after the passing of her second husband, Randy MacDougall, Fabray also started to learn about the tribulations associated with spousal death and began to bring awareness to the need for changes in the law for widows and widowers.[19] She focused her later years on campaigning for widows' rights, particularly pertaining to women's inheritance laws, taxes, and asset protection.[20]

Nanette Fabray - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Snarky Oracle!]

Oh, many's the time I was absolutely convinced that something had happened on a particular show only to rewatch and find that I was completely wrong.

I have one where I'm sitting in a theatre as a kid watching the first STAR WARS in June 1977. And when "Episode IV, A New Hope" appears in the crawl, I asked my friend what that meant, and she explained that there were three trilogies in George Lucas' story and they'd decided to start with the second trilogy; hence, Episode 4.

And we saw the movie several times.

I'm now told that that never happened, and that "Episode IV, A New Hope" wasn't added until years later.

 

[Crimson]

But even Mary's show had continuity issues

Sometimes surprisingly large. I just passed the S3 episode where Mary's old boyfriend, Tom, visits and she finds him hard to resist. The episode establishes that Mary last saw Tom two and a half years earlier -- which would be just when she was engaged to Bill, last seen in the first episode.

I have to assume the episode was written with the intention of bringing back Mary's former fiancé; maybe the actor wasn't available, maybe someone remembered he was a goober with no chemistry with Mary, or maybe someone remembered he was the actor who threw his script on the ground. Thus a new actor playing a previously unmentioned character, but that's one heck of a retcon.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

Season Four


Once again this is just an obligatory between-seasons check-in.

The big news this year has been the arrival of Sue Ann Nivens and the departure of Rhoda. Sue Ann, as expected, has been great fun. The bitchy diva behind the happy housewife is always an enjoyable contrast and Betty White plays it to perfection.

Less satisfying has been Rhoda’s departure which technically isn’t a departure. At this point there’s been no explanation so she’s simply stopped appearing. I assume this is because the spinoff wasn’t 100% confirmed at this point and if it hadn’t been green lit she would have simply remained on the parent show. On the plus side, at least she had a central role in her final episode due to her are we/aren’t we “romance” with Lou.

Rhoda has consistently been one of the best things about this series and I don’t relish watching Mary’s home life without a friend with whom she can talk things out. It’s true that Mary’s apartment already has a number of visits from her colleagues as well as suitors and the occasional relative, but it’s the Mary/Rhoda relationship that gave this location its life and it’s difficult to imagine anyone else filling that role. She gets on well with Murray, but he’s a married man with a home life (and a wife we know to be quite insecure, as the Singles Bar episode reminded us). I have a feeling that Georgette might be pushed forwards a little more as the friend, but Georgette lacks Rhoda’s directness and wisdom (and also, while she's fine in her current peripheral role, I don’t really want to see more of Georgette than we do. She feels too inauthentic and needy. I’d trust Mary Sue over Georgette. At least you know where you stand with her).

It’s been fun to watch for coughs and spits from familiar faces in small roles. Fonzie and Laverne have both shown up (it took me almost until the end of her episode before it dawned on me I was watching Penny Marshall). I’m glad Walter Cronkite’s cameo was telegraphed in the episode’s title. Since I know the name but not the face, his entrance would have gone completely over my head. Meanwhile, Don Murray lookalike and Harper Husband Richard Schaal appeared in yet another role (at least his fourth, including Chuckles The Clown). This is his most bewildering yet since I assumed he would be one of the twin brothers he’d played in previous episodes and was a little confused that Mary didn’t appear to recognise him.

Since I’m aiming to check out some of Rhoda along with MTM’s Fifth Season, I’d appreciate any input from seasoned viewers on how best to do it. I’m not bothered about strict chronology and will be happy to watch in batches since I suspect both are mostly episodic... but I’d also like a little continuity with any crossovers. I do know that I need to watch the MTM episode that aired just before Rhoda’s wedding episode, and I’d like to watch these back-to-back, but I’m unsure about the best way to get there. Any suggested viewing order would be welcome.

 

[Crimson]

Fonzie and Laverne have both shown up (it took me almost until the end of her episode before it dawned on me I was watching Penny Marshall).

I was briefly very confused about where you are in the series run. I forgot Penny showed up in S4; she also shows up later playing a different character.

The big news this year has been the arrival of Sue Ann Nivens and the departure of Rhoda. Sue Ann, as expected, has been great fun. The bitchy diva behind the happy housewife is always an enjoyable contrast and Betty White plays it to perfection.

As is often the case, some serendipitous casting . The scriptwriter included a note describing Sue Ann as a "Betty White-type", but she wasn't originally considered. Other actresses auditioned. Betty and her husband were great friends with Mary and her husband going back to the early 60s; White was often in the audience when MTM was filming. The producers weren't sure Mary would want to mix friendship with work, but Mary readily agreed with offering the role to Betty.

Sue Ann was written as a one-off character. During rehearsals, the director loved the confrontation between Sue Ann and Phyllis but was annoyed by the gaping oven door. Betty improvised slamming the door shut with her knee, which cracked everyone up and was kept in for filming. By the end of filming, the producers were already telling Betty to clear her schedule for future appearances.

Rhoda has consistently been one of the best things about this series and I don’t relish watching Mary’s home life without a friend with whom she can talk things out. It’s true that Mary’s apartment already has a number of visits from her colleagues as well as suitors and the occasional relative, but it’s the Mary/Rhoda relationship that gave this location its life and it’s difficult to imagine anyone else filling that role.

I love MTM from beginning to end but I admit the show loses some of its spark with the departure of Rhoda. It's a void that's never entirely filled. Just as the show hadn't found Mary a compelling suitor to stay the course, they never succeeded in finding a "new Rhoda" either but not for lack of trying. Combined with the increasingly infrequent appearances of Phyllis -- Cloris' career was booming by then -- Mary's homelife started to feel a bit empty.

We're lucky to have had Rhoda as long as we did, I suppose. Network pressure to give Rhoda her own show started early; definitely in S3 possibly as early as S2. I suspect the failed backdoor pilot may have been an attempt by the producers to give the network a spin-off without sacrificing any of their characters. Earlier, the producers didn't think their show could survive without Rhoda and didn't think Rhoda could survive without the show. By S4, with the introduction of Georgette and Sue Ann, the producers felt they had a strong enough ensemble to let Rhoda spin off. Personally, I wish they had held off on giving Rhoda her own show until the end of MTM, just as they did with Lou.

Less satisfying has been Rhoda’s departure which technically isn’t a departure. At this point there’s been no explanation so she’s simply stopped appearing.

I hadn't noticed before that Valerie didn't appear in the last couple episodes of S4. Possibly she was already prepping her own show, although it wasn't unusual for Rhoda to not appear in a episode or two. Even without watching RHODA, Rhoda's departure is addressed directly in the series in S5. She fared better than Gordie, at least, who stopped appearing but was still occasionally referred to as if he was still around.

I have a feeling that Georgette might be pushed forwards a little more as the friend, but Georgette lacks Rhoda’s directness and wisdom (and also, I don’t really want to see more of Georgette than we do. She feels too inauthentic and needy.

You are correct in assuming Georgette will be nudged into the role of Mary's confidant. Like all of the characters, Georgette evolved over time. As Mary herself grew in confidence and directness, it wasn't the worst thing for her friend to be the naive one.

Since I’m aiming to check out some of Rhoda along with MTM’s Fifth Season, I’d appreciate any input from seasoned viewers on how best to do it. I’m not bothered about strict chronology

If you're planning to just watch the wedding episodes, I suggest interjecting them in between S4 and S5 or anywhere early S5. If you plan to watch all of S1 of RHODA, you could aim for for the order in which the two shows aired. RHODA aired on Mondays (starting 9/9/74) and MTM aired Saturdays (starting 9/14/74) and they just alternate from there. That said, there's so little continuity between the shows it's hardly worth the effort. You could watch them in random batches and it would hardly matter.

 

[Mel O'Drama]

I forgot Penny showed up in S4; she also shows up later playing a different character.

Oh great. It'll be good to see her again.

The scriptwriter included a note describing Sue Ann as a "Betty White-type", but she wasn't originally considered.

Oh my. That sounds very much like what happened with Dorothy on The Golden Girls originally being written as a "Bea Arthur type".

I'm guessing the "Betty White type" at this time would have been the "on-screen" version of Sue Ann, as opposed to the more critical and difficult person Sue Ann became once the cameras stopped rolling.

Betty and her husband were great friends with Mary and her husband going back to the early 60s; White was often in the audience when MTM was filming. The producers weren't sure Mary would want to mix friendship with work, but Mary readily agreed with offering the role to Betty.

That's really nice. I had no idea.

Sue Ann was written as a one-off character.

I'd thought this might be the case given the huge gap between her first and second appearances.

Network pressure to give Rhoda her own show started early; definitely in S3 possibly as early as S2.

In that case I share your sentiment that we were lucky to have her for on the series for this long.

As well as a sign of the series' success, could the spinoff also be a sign of the times? When I think of some bigger hits of later decades (The Golden Girls, Friends, Will & Grace), the main ensembles remained all the way through and there were no spinoffs during their original runs. It seemed to be recognised that there was strength in not spreading things too thin.

Personally, I wish they had held off on giving Rhoda her own show until the end of MTM, just as they did with Lou.

I strongly suspect I'll end up feeling the same way.

I hadn't noticed before that Valerie didn't appear in the last couple episodes of S4. Possibly she was already prepping her own show, although it wasn't unusual for Rhoda to not appear in a episode or two.

For that very reason I probably wouldn't have even registered her absence in the last couple of episodes of Season Four.

She fared better than Gordie, at least, who stopped appearing but was still occasionally referred to as if he was still around.

Oh yipes. I must confess Gordie's absence hadn't actually registered with me until I read this. John Amos was off filming Good Times, no doubt.

Now I think of it, this explains why one of the other regular newsroom background characters was upgraded to a speaking part in occasional S4 episodes (I forget his name, but he's got shoulder-length blonde-ish hair and looks not unlike Foggy from the Daredevil series).

As Mary herself grew in confidence and directness, it wasn't the worst thing for her friend to be the naive one.

Good point. And I suppose it's good that there was no attempt to force in another Rhoda type.

If you're planning to just watch the wedding episodes, I suggest interjecting them in between S4 and S5 or anywhere early S5. If you plan to watch all of S1 of RHODA, you could aim for for the order in which the two shows aired. RHODA aired on Mondays (starting 9/9/74) and MTM aired Saturdays (starting 9/14/74) and they just alternate from there. That said, there's so little continuity between the shows it's hardly worth the effort. You could watch them in random batches and it would hardly matter.

Since you've persuaded me to watch the wedding episodes, I think it will be worth watching at least all the Rhoda episodes up to that point. Nine or ten episodes will be plenty to give me a feel for the series, so anything beyond that will depend on how much I enjoy the series and on the quality of the uploads.

I'm minded to do batches to save flipping between formats, and also because I'm sure alternating between nicely mastered MTM DVDs and less-than-first-class uploads of Rhoda could be quite jarring, but I'll take your advice and go by transmission dates with the first episodes of each series and the episodes that might reference the wedding.